moving the boundaries

[Guest WINGS 04]

i have just heard that a club has moved its boundaries to stop a member of their club from racing in it as he is to good for them. this member is considered the best federation flyer in scotland if not the whole of the uk

[GREENGRASS]

hi wings unfortunately you hear of this happening some times, it is a shame that fanciers will change the rules to exclude a top flier. but what happens is there will be a new man to take his place who will find himself or herself in the same position in a few years time. I personally would try to obtain better stock and breed better birds and try everything i could to compete but moving the  boundries is the easy option as it requires no effort or courage. Unfortunately those who have control over our sport forget that the sport is in decline and we need as many members as we can get. i would put an option on your voting poll to "try my hardest to compete with the successful fancier". only my opinion but sometimes we as fanciers take the easy option and refuse to acknowledge superior birds and management systems, i remember years ago being told by jimmy carroll that if you are at the bottom of the result you are everybody`s friend but if you are the top you are their enemy, how true those words were.

[jimmy white]

all fanciers are there to be beat, if someone is winning out of turn, then change your methods or birds or put more in to them, you need these members to make you work at it all the harder,,,,,competition.

[Peckedhen]

I'm not racing yet but, I would be asking the winning fancier if he would breed some birds for me and if he would talk to club members of how he thinks he is achieving his success eg, system, loft management, feeds and additives etc. - (says she who knows absolutely nothing about it, but surely the winning guy wants some competition - it cant be much fun to just keep on winning!) :

[Guest ben]

I` ve seen and heard it all before,if thechap behaved like a genteleman,clocking his 1st pigeon, and perhaps his pool pigeon,then putting his clock away he would still have a club to race in,it`s different clocking in long distance nationals,you got to clock because the bird has tried so hard,not so club/fed  type racing .

   the other club members,well good for them!

[Guest]

I'm sorry but I had to laugh when I read Ben's mail. If you flew where I fly and use electronic clocking you could be 1/2 a minute behind the winning bird, but have another 20 birds in the clock before your bird, if the winning flyer is a mob flyer and sends 80 birds to the race.

 

Think about this seriously before you vote electronic clocking into your club/fed, nothing gentlemany or lady like about this

[Henrik]

Its not the clock but the fancier who decides how many birds go on thr result,yes the electronic will time them in but its up to the fancier how many to put forward for the final result. We have a fancier in our club and when the printout comes from his ETS he will say just take the first two or three and then the 10th or so as it is my pool pigeon so dont start blaming the clocking system its all down to the fancier in the end.

[Henrik]

The poll needs an option to leave things as they are does it not as all the options are negatives and I would not do any of these things but try and get better myself.

[andy]

WINGS, WHO OR HOW DO YOU ENTER A CHAMPIONSHIP IN SCOTLAND TO DETERMINE THE BEST FEDERATION FLYER IN THE COUNTRY????????

[PIGEON_MAN]

NOT SURE WHAT THE RULES ARE IN SCOTLAND BUT DOWN HERE YOU COULD NOT MOVE THE  BOUNDARIES TO PUT OUT A MEMBER IF HE IS ALLREADY IN THE CLUB,THE ONLY WAY IS IF THAT MEMBER MOVED HIS LOFT OUTSIDE OF THE ORIGINAL BOUNDERY.ON THE POINT OF A GOOD FLYER JOINING THE CLUB AT THE END OF THE DAY IT IS UP TO THE MEMBERS WHO THEY WANT TO VOTE INTO THE CLUB EVEN IF THE FANCIER IS IN THE BOUNDARY THERE IS NO RULE TO SAY YOU MUST ALLOW HIM TO JOIN.

[PIGEON_MAN]

SORRY HYACINTH MUST DISAGREE WITH YOU AS HENRIK SAID DONT GO BLAIMING THE CLOCKING SYSTEM IF A GUY CLOCKS 20 BIRDS IN BEFORE MY BIRD THEN MY BIRD WAS NOT AS GOOD AS HIS 20,ITS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE E.T.S.CLUBS COULD PUT A LIMIT AS TO HOW MANY BIRDS A FANCIER COULD CLOCK BUT EVEN THEN YOU WOULD BE GETTING A FALSE POSITION IN THE RACE IF YOU STOPPED THE GUY CLOCKING ALL HIS BIRDS THAT HAD ARRIVED HOME BEFORE YOURS.A E.T.S. SYSTEM WILL NOT MAKE

ANYBODY A BETTER FLYER IT IS THE BIRDS AND THE SYSTEM YOU FLY.I WILL DEFINATELY VOTE FOR THE E.T.S. IF GIVEN A CHANCE WEATHER I CAN AFFORD IT IS A NOTHER MATTER.  

[PIGEON_MAN]

NOT SURE WHAT THE RULES ARE IN SCOTLAND BUT DOWN HERE YOU COULD NOT MOVE THE  BOUNDARIES TO PUT OUT A MEMBER IF HE IS ALLREADY IN THE CLUB,THE ONLY WAY IS IF THAT MEMBER MOVED HIS LOFT OUTSIDE OF THE ORIGINAL BOUNDERY.ON THE POINT OF A GOOD FLYER JOINING THE CLUB AT THE END OF THE DAY IT IS UP TO THE MEMBERS WHO THEY WANT TO VOTE INTO THE CLUB EVEN IF THE FANCIER IS IN THE BOUNDARY THERE IS NO RULE TO SAY YOU MUST ALLOW HIM TO JOIN.

[methilman]

I DONT THINK THAT IT IS FAIR TO MOVE THE BOUNDARIES TO STOP GOOD FANCERS OUT OF THERE CLUB

[Guest]

In our Club we fly from the East to West, the farthest members being 60 miles apart from North to South and the weather can vary dramatically especially the wind direction from Loft to loft,, so tell me who has the better birds the guy in the North who sends 80 birds and times in say 30 on the drop with little or no headwind compared with a lone warrior in the middle of the course who has battled far stronger winds but ends up say 31st on the sheet.

 

In England we always timed our fist bird in and it it was the pooler no more birds would be clocked.

 

I just hate to see good birds way down the race sheet when they have flown their little hearts out in difficult weather conditions.

 

On the whole I like electronic clocking and have some extremely good birds but situations like the above really get up my nose.

 

[MsPigeon]

Even when using ETS you have the option to limit the number of birds. But I agree that if the birds clocked in before others they should be on the race sheet before others. But I think it would not be fair if you had ETS and you could pick and choose which ones you want on the sheet, if you are limiting the number of birds clocked it needs to be limited to the first so many in the clock or not limited at all, the same for everyone. Just my opinion... I see your point Hyacinth, but would you really feel like you disserved to place say second because the first place winner decided to only use his first bird in on the race sheet? Thats like winning by diffault. Not much glory in that. Personally I like a true picture of where my birds are placing among ALL others in the race. I also am aware of winds and weather and I keep that in mind for my own information when grading my birds and making notes on how they did each race.

Carol

[Guest]

Carol,

 

One point to remember that the AU forbid clocking limits but our club have shipping limits.

 

The C and B race are limited to 7 and 15 birds respectively.  The A race is unlimited.

 

My *expletive removed* is that the mobsters will but 80 birds in the A race, where I normally send between 10 and 15, sometimes when I haven't liked the weather too much I've sent a token gesture.  If the weather is on the mobsters side what chance has my token gesture of getting recognition on the race sheet when the bird is flying into headwinds, which is the case on most of our races over say 150 miles.  We get a funnel of winds down from the Cascades which is a headwind to me starting about noon each day.

 

As for the C and B races I take my chances with the rest of the club.

[JAS]

Hi PIGEON-MAN WE USE ETS AS DO MOST OF THE CLUB. YOU CANNOT PUT A LIMIT TO HOW MANY CAN BE CLOCK AS YOU PAY A ENTRY FEE FOR EACH BIRD SENT. SAYING THAT MOST OF US DO WHAT YOU SAID IF LUCKY TO GET THREE ON THE DROP. WE TAKE THEM THEN THE POOLER IF NOT IN THE FIRST THREE.ALSO THERE ARE MEMBERS STILL WINNING IN OUR CLUB WITHOUT ETS SO ITS THE BIRDS THAT WIN NOT THE CLOCK. ALSO ON THE ETS THEY TALKED ABOUT A 10 SEC PENELTY ON ETS BUT COULD NOT DO THAT AS YOU DO NOT GET TIME TO CLOCK YOUR BIRDS. YOUR MEASUREMENTS ARE FROM LIB.SITE TO THE LOFT NOT UNTILL YOU CLOCK THE BIRD IN.

 

                          JAS.

[Guest ben]

hi MSpigeon,

                  i cannot see your point,were talking about club/ federation racingNOT LONG DISTANCE NATIONALS.What`s the point of having a clock set in club racing?those days died out years ago,,majority of good fanciers over here just use club/fed racing for training only.

    If this so called "good Fed" fancier was any good,he would do as most other top fanciers,leave the club/fed prizes to others,and concentrate on better class of competition.

   Perhaps where you live ,you must have a different opinion of club racing?

[Guest WINGS 04]

ben this flyer has won S N F C 1st open it to the west of scotland so he has done it all he just likes his sprint races and is the best at it i for one am trying to get to his level so if you think be in  the club is for training you must be some flyer

[Guest]

DONT THINK YOU CAN CLOSE A BOUDARIE TO KEEP A MEMBER OUT OF AN SHU CLUB OUT.

[Guest]

Some of the posts have not only moved the boundaries, they've moved the goal posts too.  ;D

 

Think it is pigeons that win races. I think it is Mealybar who has the motto 'quality not quantity'. Would agree with that. The fancier with a mob of quality pigeons will surely win more. The only way to beat him / her is to get better birds and fly them better than he / she does. That's what good competition does, it makes the rest of 'us' (me too) try bloody harder. And I don't believe for a minute that anyone puts birds away to a club or federation (or any other race) without the single objective of winning or doing well in the race. If you say these races don't matter, its probably because you get thrashed every week (like me) and (unlike me) have given up all hope of doing well in them.

 

I was once a member of this 'worst type of clubs' where two members were winning because of perceived overfly from the rest. The club first formed a club within a club which split the main town down the middle (east / west boundary, racing on the south road) which put the few lofts in the north side of the town out of the new three-bird club radius, then tried to change the boundaries to put the two furthest flyers out of the main club altogether. And this was only a small town that you'd miss if you blinked passing through it.

 

And I've really got to laugh when I hear overfly. Every loft flies a different distance, the measurement of a theoretical straight line between the racepoint and the loft. So fanciers A & B racing from X race two different courses AX and BX. If fancier B's pigeons have further to fly, the overfly isn't AB as some mathematicians out there would have us believe. Its the difference between BX and AX.

 

The best example of this 'triangle' measurement I saw in print was for a channel race from a racepoint in Eastern France. Chap in Kirkintilloch (Central Belt) flying 500 miles, was compared to a chap in Aberdeen (North East Coast) flying 550 miles and 'Kirkintilloch to Aberdeen is 130 miles', so the guy in Aberdeen was supposedly 'losing' 80 miles overfly on this new racepoint. If the Aberdeen bird had been flying such a dog-leg course (flying 40 miles inland, rather than hugging the east coast) it was a pigeon there for the beating.

 

And I take your point about winds, Hyacinth. Still on the Nationals in Scotland. The prevailing wind here is SW. So what starts as a tail wind becomes a head wind to those lofts in the Scottish West Central Belt at the worst possible time of the race - for the last 50 or so miles as the birds come back from the East... a line-of-flight determined by the wind .... a classic real-life double dog-leg course where the West section birds fly additional mileage without being credited it.

 

There's nothing fair in pigeons. Making life difficult for good pigeon people isn't the way to even things up.  >

 

 

 

[mealybar]

... I think it is Mealybar who has the motto 'quality not quantity'...

 

Dont think it was me,, but I certainly agree

 

From the logans topic I think what I said applies here:

 

The winner is the bird that has taken its chances, however they come, thats why it is a worthy winner. There will always be bird(s) with the top few that have few a bit further, into a 'harder' (only someones opinion) location on that day; these birds made the best of what they had, and are also good birds, but the winner is the one who made the best of what he had, and theres no taking that away from him.

 

In my opinion ETS will give a fairer result, as there will be no false positions as all birds are clocked, and we can calculate the best team performance on that day. I think with a club radius such as yours Hyacinth, maybe it would be a good idea to look at a variation on the velocity system to level the playing field where lofts are such large distances apart.

[Guest]

if i was 2nd to a fancier who i knew had 5 or even 10 birds before me i would know that i wasnt 2nd in that race, this is just my opinion. it just gives the fanciers false pretenses he will settle for that not me, i want to win. if a fancier wants to send 50 birds let him, i know if mine are on form fit and healthy i have as much chance to beat him sending only 15, everyone knows this they are just looking for excuses why they cant win , the answer to why they cant win is their birds are just not good enoguh simple. you can give any fancier the best birds in the world but if he dont know how to race them they will not win for him. give a top class fancier good birds and he will be dangerous. he will have the quantity but 90% of them are quality aswell. i know that when my birds are not 1005 i could send 200 if i like and the fancier that sends 50 could only send 10 that week and still thrash me!

[PIGEON_MAN]

GREAT POSTING GEZ AGREE IOO% MAYBE SOME OF THE PEOPLE WHO THINK THAT THE E.T.S.WILL GIVE FANCIERS A UNFARE ADVANTAGE SHOULD READ YOUR LAST COUPLE OF LINES AND REALISE IT IS NOTHING AT ALL TO DO WITH THE CLOCKING SYSTEM YOU USE

[liverpool_boy]

ben this fanciers name is g mackaloney & son and i think it if terrible that this is what you get when your the best i would love to be in his club just to try my best to get to his level. so ben who do you think the best allround flyer in scotland is.