y/b dehydration

[Guest CS]

how many fanciers give something to the y/bs day of basketting to try and help stop them getting dehydrated ?  ie rice , cabbage ,spinach or is there something else to use ?

[westburylofts]

 

JUST WATER BEFORE BASKETING

HAVE USED A DROPPER TO MAKE SURE THEY HAVE ALL HAD A GOOD DRINK

 

ELECTROLITES ON RETURNING

 

RAY

[Guest]

Brown Rice or crushed up pasta

[Guest CS]

Brown Rice or crushed up pasta

 

Do you give them on the basketting day?

[Guest jason]

mine have to be at club at 7pm and I've just give them a light feed now, so they'll have a drink.

 

I'm not over bothered though as last week after we basketed birds we put drinkers on crates and all mine had a drink then!

 

 

jason

[Guest]

yes craig

[ALF]

Electrolytes on the friday and on their return on the saturday if it's really hot (didnae give them any today though as it is a wee bit chilly : ;D ;D ;D

[Guest CS]

yes craig

 

Thank you very much, Linda  

[Guest]

Alf,

 

I would never give electrolites before shipping the birds. Pigeons don't sweat like human beings and the electrolites can cause a tocix build up in the kidneys whilst the birds are in flight

[Guest]

Agree with Hyacinth, its a mistake to think that birds lose salts in the basket / during the race. They don't sweat and lose salt & water like us. What they lose is water, leaving an excess level of salts, in the kidneys, and in the blood. This causes the blood to thicken and puts additional strain on the heart.

 

Logical thinking should tell you that after the race what they need  most is fresh water and plenty of it, to flush their kidneys, and to balance these salt  / fluid levels, get the blood back to its proper consistency ,,,,, not more salt which will only make matters worse.

[sportagraphs]

Try feeding 3/4 normal food allowance at midday on day of basketing (providing they have been well fed Thursday)  2 hours before basketing clean drinkers and top up with fresh water and feed 1/4 oz (per bird) of seed mix red band etc. They will take it then without thinking go to drinker and up to perch to roost (as they will think its the normal last feed of the day). This will ensure they have a good drink before going to the race amd are hungry enough to trap on race day. Good Luck

[Guest]

I'd a chance down at the club last night to watch young birds drinking in baskets .

 

Soul destroying. Something like 20 drinkers on 15 baskets, 397 birds.

 

Stimulus was there - splashing, dripping, or moving water.

 

Saw just two take a drink, and even then only a quick sip rather than anything like a good gulp.

 

Reckon young birds just don't drink ... wondered: any ideas on getting them to drink in the race basket?

[Guest]

I always "Basket train" mine for at least three nights, in other words, I take the water out before feeding, then load them up in shipping baskets with drinkers on and leave them overnight.  They soon learn

[Guest CS]

 

Do you give them on the basketting day?

 

How much rices do you give them ? Linda...

[Tony C]

how many fanciers give something to the y/bs day of basketting to try and help stop them getting dehydrated ?  ie rice , cabbage ,spinach or is there something else to use ?

 

 

Give mine water, find it helps  ;D ;D ;D

 

[jimmy white]

I GO WITH HYACINTH ON EACH OF HER POSTS, BUT I GAVE MINE COLOMBINE TEA ON THE SUNDAY[WITH SUGAR IN IT ;D HONESTLY]  PROVIDES A VERY MILD PURGATIVE ,TO RID OF TOXINS  BUILT UP FLYING HOME, AND HELPS THEM WITH STRESS [ ALL REALLY JUST HERBS]

[Pompey Mick]

According to Dr Colin  Walker, ( The Flying Vet),

' During exertion, both water and electrolytes are lost from the bird's system'

and he goes on to talk of the need to replace lost electrolytes.

[Tony C]

Well here's the folks and article that started all the stushie.  ;D  ;D   ;D

 

Runs to 4 pages, copy and paste job into a word document, methinks.

 

Flying racing pigeons in the heat.

With regard to the strange races of section 7 in Holland, where pigeons came home totally dehydrated and lost 30% of their bodyweight, I asked a number of our authors to comment. How they look upon it you can read below.

 

1. Dr. Colin Walker:

 

There is no single disease that comes to mind that would cause the symptoms, however, any disease can make the races particularly taxing for the birds and prolong recovery. I would imagine however, that you have already had all of the routine checks done to ensure that your birds are healthy. The two most common diseases that lead to excessive thirst during racing are wet canker and respiratory infection causing inflamed air sacs.

 

Wet canker: the trichomonad organisms produce a toxin that makes the birds thirsty. When the air sacs become inflamed they lose their moisture conserving ability and the birds lose excessive moisture in the exhaled air. When correcting the ensuing dehydration they often over-compensate and drink excessively. As you say however, there may be concern that the conveyers are not watering and feeding the birds adequately. Experiments have shown that pigeons deprived of water for 24 hours at 25C become 5% dehydrated. Given the pigeon’s high body temperature (41.7C) and the number put in race baskets, the temperature within the basket can get much higher, even on cold days particularly if the race basket is poorly ventilated. Even birds that are only slightly dehydrated can be expected to orientate poorly and take longer to recover.

 

2. Bob Rowland: Scientific answer about flying in the heat:

 

Total heat load = environmental temperature + body temperature + UV thermal Load. If you change any one of these variables you change the bird’s total metabolic rate which corresponds to a high energy demand and thereby higher consumption of minerals, fat, and other vitamins.

 

 

3. Dr. Wim Peters – responding to Bob Rowland’s views:

 

A controversial thing is the use of corn for long distance races. A farmer (not a pigeon guy) once told me corn in hot weather should be like poison for pigeons. The salt in corn would create tremendous thirst in hot weather. I would rather load up with different carbohydrates, e.g. Rice, or Rice soaked in water. Peanuts are another questionable fad. I believe they are good in cool weather and bad in hot weather, at least close to race day, not sure why or scientifically, but that has been my experience.

 

Electrolytes

 

Pigeons do not sweat - so where is the loss of the electrolytes, that have to be replaced, supposed to come from? It is stated that sodium and other salts are excreted when bound to lactic acid and that the lactic acid forms when the pigeons do anaerobic exercise (exercise in the absence of oxygen). It is my contention that racing pigeons have no anaerobic exercise and therefore conserve their salts.

 

Unless a pigeon is losing electrolytes in some form, maybe with enteritis or when the kidneys have been damaged by PMV, there is NO need to use them or when birds vomit, have diarrhea and so on. In these cases their use is absolutely essential , but not for healthy pigeons.

 

 

4. John Sampson.

 

I find Dr. Wim Peters views very interesting. Why do we give electrolytes before a race? Is it to make the birds thirsty? Why do we give them after a race? I know people that give Pedialyte before long races that do very well and others who do it and don't do well. I have tried it and did not do well that day, but maybe it had nothing to do with Pedialyte?

 

I think birds kept closer to nature in the hot weather will do better assuming they have all the attributes of a good racing pigeon. When we have a long, hard, hot race why is it some old timers who don't know an electrolyte from a vitamin, don't train, don't medicate very much, etc, but yet they always seem to get good birds. We are also told vitamins and some grains can cause thirst as well, so perhaps the street pigeons can handle the heat better than our thoroughbreds? I never saw one panting at the Mall. I believe in medication and proper diet, but I also think we are too good to our pigeons sometimes and consequently do them more harm than good.

Some of my observations on temperature, humidity, dew point, etc. in relation to pigeons. Yesterday in different parts of the country I got the following information.

 

84 degrees, 72% dew point, 66% humidity (rain)

89 degrees, 55% dew point, 100% humidity (no rain)

 

How is it we can have 100% humidity but yet a low dew point and vice versa? The only thing I know for sure is when the temperature and dew point are the same we have fog, yet temperature and humidity have no relation to fog. Humid air is thicker, heavier, harder to breathe, ask anyone with lung problems. Not sure about high dew point air being thicker or heavier but I would think it would be similar. I'm not sure about any relationship with humid air and wing flapping, but I know with my lung condition, it's harder to breathe and move around. Why is it even on a "cool day" with "high dew" point pigeons get overheated?

 

Personally I think dew point is the killer, not temperature or humidity, another killer is "lack of cloud cover" on a day with bright sunshine. What causes cramp in the legs when flying in hot weather or hard day, is it from holding the legs down in the air to cool off? Not sure if that's a fact or an old wives tail, but I heard if a pigeon can cool his feet down it helps cool his whole body?

 

Our driver is instructed to have water before the birds 1 hour before release. I have talked with him many times about this and he said the minute they see him the only thing on their mind is the doors opening and water is the last thing on their mind. Of course on a race with 2 day shipping they will drink. I'm not sure if water is that important before a short race in hot weather. I agree it might be good for them, but how do you get them to take a drink? Many clubs do not feed the birds on a 2 day race, they don't think it's good and makes the birds thirsty.

 

5. Wim Peters.

 

I'm against the use of electrolytes in pigeons (p 216). Colin Walker, in his latest book (p 144) has a different opinion. His argument is that the lactic acid, which is produced at the time of anaerobic exercise, bonds with sodium and other salts to facilitate excretion and is thus lost. This causes loss of electrolytes and a prolonged recuperation period. To prevent this state he recommends electrolyte 'replacement'. Now if electrolytes were lost I would agree with the rationale but does the bird do any anaerobic exercise when flying normally? Some people here, particularly those in the more humid areas, now wish to use them also before a race. (It's fairly widely believed that the birds will be properly hydrated!). I don't like it but maybe I'm missing something? I see that Colin W also advises half-strength electrolytes prior to basketing.

 

 

6. Gordon Chalmers reply to Wim Peters

 

I seldom use electrolytes on my own birds. My general feeling has been not to use them at all (exception - possibly in cases of severe fluid loss as in diarrhea). I just don't see the point of using them before a race, since, if birds are managed correctly and have access to a wide-ranging mineral mix at all times, their electrolytes should be at normal levels. Adding electrolytes might just induce unnecessary thirst. I have thought that at times, birds could use electrolytes on their return from a race, but even then I'm reluctant to use them. I much prefer fresh water with no additives when they arrive, but later in the day, I'll add some glucose or fructose. I really don't like the idea of half-strength electrolytes as advocated by Colin - my view is that it's better to avoid them entirely ahead of shipping, and let the birds balance their own systems without electrolytes after they return.

 

During a race any significant alteration to the regular rate of the wing beat at cruising speed (on average, a normal rate of 5.4 beats per second) such as explosive or dodging bursts of speed, pulling hard against the wind, braking to land, etc. can induce anaerobic glycolysis. That results in the production of some level of lactic acid.

 

 

7. Dr. Wim Peters.

 

Racing your pigeons when the temps exceed 30 degrees C becomes problematical. (I cannot agree with Bob R who states that 20 to 35 degrees is 'the ideal range'. I'm sure he didn’t mean it like this.)

 

Pigeons flying in hot conditions can only lower their body temperature by increasing the evaporation rate from the mouth, throat and lungs. Doing so in the absence of drinking water increases the possibility (danger) of dehydration. The alternative is to reduce or stop its physical exertion - flying. This accounts for the slow velocities and high losses whenever such high temps occur on long distance races particularly. Whenever the temperature exceeds 30 degrees problems begin. Of course there are some birds that can handle high temps better than others. It has a genetic background but roughly speaking the heavier birds are less heat-tolerant than the lighter and smaller-framed.

 

Racing the pigeons in humid conditions reduces their ability to handle high temperatures.

 

Any hindrance to the evaporation rate creates difficulties. Under humid conditions evaporation is drastically reduced and hot conditions can become unbearable.

 

 

In both the above, the position is seriously aggravated when the birds have to battle a headwind. They keep low above the ground (where it is hotter) and have to work harder against the wind pushing up their body temperatures. Results of races on hot headwind days are usually dismal.

 

I do not believe that the administration of electrolytes is of any benefit

 

Unless a pigeon is losing Electrolytes there is NO need to use them. Pigeons on a normal temperate day will drink about 50 ml water. On the day that the electrolytes were given it was hotter than usual and the birds accordingly drank more. The fact that there were electrolytes in the water had little to do with their total intake. They had loose bowels because they were given what amounts to a clean-out - as if given Epsom salts. The loose bowels acted as if a purgative had been administered and this action alone would ensure that these birds would drink more water. In fact it could be so dehydrating that they could die if water were totally absent!

 

8. Leo Turley.

 

I too raised an eyebrow when I saw Bob’s 35C maximum. We in Western Australia fly over what is classified as hot desert (especially our inland route) from say 250 miles and beyond and need to draw the line at 24C and slightly higher in a tail wind, where birds can achieve relative altitude commensurate with cooling. Above 24C, wayside water, or the lack of it, dictates whether the birds can carry on after a certain number of hours on the wing. In looking at the maximum 24C here in WA, one needs to judge the velocity of the race, calculate where the birds will be on the course in relation to maximum temperature for the area, whether 24C or higher is being forecast and whether wayside water is readily available. I think it pertinent to quote what I wrote to Steven Van Breemen:

 

"Steven... I read Bob's article and I can't agree with his acceptable temperature range of 20 - 35C... without adequate water along the race course. I believe that without wind assistance anything over 24C is fatal. Here in Western Australia where we race in the heat and in true hot desert country with very little wayside water available and this is the key... temperature is of no consequence if there is plenty of wayside water. I believe it now necessary (here in WA) to have water before the birds before release for at least the same time as it has taken time to travel without water, so they can rehydrate (their hematocrit).

 

9. Bob Rowland

 

I would like to say that the temperature range I gave was dealing only with temperatures without other considerations. For example, 35'C with high humidity is much different than racing at 35'C with low humidity. The more humidity, the more water in the air. The adverse effect of the high humidity is heavy air which makes for extra effort needed to flap their wings. At lower humidity, the air is lighter and therefore less tiring for the pigeons to complete the course.

 

Regardless of the temperature, the pigeons can not stay in the air very long in the rain and again for the same reason, the effort to move their wings becomes greater and the point of inability to flap any longer comes sooner. Rain is 100% humidity or perhaps even greater depending on how we would calculate it. I prefer the lower end of the temperature scale as this makes for an easier task even in greater humidity but again, not too low or the pigeon must exert extra energy to create heat for warming the air or this can also create severe problems. I pointed out what the best range could be and then the additional factors need to be factored in. One can not give a one statement fits all scenario as certainly common sense tells us that racing in the desert must certainly be different than racing in the tropics even at precisely the same temperature.

 

Re. Wim’s  belief that the administration of electrolytes is of any benefit: This could be a true statement if we were only trying to race a pigeon that is in perfect electrolyte balance and in the absolute best optimal condition and the distances were just ideal  etc. The reason for having pigeons take the electrolytes is twofold. First to make sure they have enough for the proper balance and second, to consume more water than they normally would so that they will pack their cells with the water and are not beginning the journey without enough water to complete the trip. When we try to believe that all pigeons will be given equal treatment by the convoyer, I prefer to think that if I can give them a head start going in that this certainly can't hurt much. If I did not help them, did I hurt them by giving them a possible edge?

 

 

 

 

[Guest]

A recap for the benefit of those who may have missed the original post.

 

This is an extract from the 'Dutch Pigeon Transporter Study' commissioned by the NPO [Dutch Homing Union] and carried out by a Dutch Animal University in the 1990s. The findings from this study led to the design of their new transporter vehicles.

 

The study proved that during dehydration, the birds lose water (obviously) but don't lose electrolytes. It also proved that given access to as much water as it wanted, a bird's hydration levels recovered and were normal after 30 minutes of it drinking.  

 

Note that these are scientific experiments, their findings have been published as individual papers and as a book. The 'pp' references below are to the pages in the book.

 

 

Optimal Temperature Levels for Racing Pigeons Housed under Transport Conditions:

 

The Role of Water Availability and Age.

 

Abstract

 

The effect of water availability and age on the optimal temperature zone for pigeons aboard the transporter was studied. The upper critical temperature (UCT) was estimated based on body heat production, body weight & composition losses. 40 groups x 15 young birds, and 40 groups x 15/18 old birds were studied over 23 hours, exposed to ambient temps between 15C and 39C, with or without access to water. On the optimal temperature zone, age had no effect while water availability had strong impact. Birds with access to water had no UCT. Variation in weight loss occurred above 32.1C; Water deprivation caused dehydration, and deaths occurred at 39C. Body heat production increased by 0.16% per degree C above 32.1C (UCT). Above 32.1C body weight loss increased by 1.3% per degree C. The resultant dehydrated state from water deprivation and heat exposure may increase bird losses.

 

Results pp16-

 

Heat production significantly affected by ambient temperature and bird’s age. YBs 0.36% higher than OBs. Water availability had no effect.

 

Body Weight loss significantly affected by ambient temperature and water availability. No upper critical temperature was found with birds having water availability, while 32.1C estimated for birds without water. Variation higher in young birds 23.8% than old birds 21.2%.

 

Mean Body Weight (dry matter, breast muscle) significantly affected by interaction between ambient temperature and water treatment. Upper critical temperature 32.1C for water-deprived birds, higher temperatures, dry matter increased by 0.83% per degree C. i.e. most of the water lost came from the bird’s breast muscles.

 

Humidity: 70% up to 35C; 64% @ 37C; 56% @ 39C.  

 

Respiration quotient 0.74, unaffected by exposures.

 

Hematocrit (Hct) values (Dehydration causes higher values) significantly affected by bird’s age: YBs 55.7%, OBs 53.6%. Water deprivation tended to increase Hct by 1.2%.

 

Hematocrit explanation

Hematocrit values decrease when the size or number of red cells decrease, and if red cells increase Hematocrit  increase values. Fluid volume in the blood affects the hematocrit. Pregnant women have extra fluid, which dilutes the blood, decreasing the hematocrit. Dehydration concentrates the blood, increasing the hematocrit.

 

Chapter 1 Discussion pp20-22

 

Water availability and the ‘thermoneutral’ zone – (optimal temperature zone)

 

Water deprivation lowers the upper critical temperature to 32.7C. (YBs died at 39C)

 

With water availability, no increase in these values was seen below the upper limit at 37C. With water availability and increasing ambient temperatures a decrease in heat production values was seen until 20C was reached, and remained constant at higher levels. 20C can be regarded as the lower critical temperature. (LCT)

 

At high ambient temperature levels birds resort to mainly water evaporation for heat loss to maintain normal body temperature. Water deprivation prevents repletion of body water reserves. This results in an increase of 1.3 % body weight loss per degree Centigrade above 32.1C and reaches 16.2% body weight loss at 39C, over a 23 hour period. The physiological consequences of this weight loss (dehydration) are: a rise in body temperature; blood high viscosity (‘thickening’); ‘drying out’ of the breast muscles through water extraction; and death when the body weight loss threshold reaches 18%. The combined effects of the temperature level and the time birds are exposed to it determines the mortality rate. Heavier birds are affected more. Smaller birds appear better able to cope with hot environments where water is scarce.

 

During flight, decreased blood viscosity promotes blood flow thus reducing the load on the heart. Therefore dehydration will adversely affect flight performance, and the bird’s capacity to get home.

 

Also during flight, body temperature increases by between 1.5C and 3C, and water loss exceeds water production. Starting the flight with depleted water reserves will cause the pigeon’s body to overheat (hyperthermia). In horses, hyperthermia decreases the time to muscle fatigue.

 

Age and optimal temperature zone  p23

 

Optimal temperature zone for transporter: 20C to 32C for all ages. Some parameters were different for different age groups.

 

Body heat production was 5% higher in young birds than old. Young birds have higher energy requirements for growth processes.

 

Young birds also had a higher variation in mean body weight losses, may be down to lack of experience. Old birds easily adapt to an already familiar environment.  Hct values significantly higher in young birds 2.1%, possibly linked to the higher body heat production, requiring a higher oxygen supply.

 

UCT is 32C. Variation in body weight loss increases above this. Water deprivation increases heat production, body weight loss, dry matter content of the breast muscles and mortality at temperatures above UCT. The resultant dehydrated state probably reduces the flying capacity of the pigeon and increase bird losses.

 

Chapter 3 pp43-57

 

Duirnal Variation in the Thermoregulation of Group Confined Pigeons in Relation to Ambient Temperature and Water Deprivation.

 

Abstract  p43

 

The thermoregulatory response of a group of pigeons to water deprivation and their ability to recover from the resultant dehydration was examined. Groups were deprived of food, and exposed to constant temperatures of 23, 31 or 37C over 48 hours. A 24-hour dehydration period was followed by a 24-hour recovery period during which heat production and body temperature (Exp1) and evaporated water loss (EWL) (Exp2) were measured. Combined results gave an estimated dry thermal conductance during lights on and lights off periods. EWL indicated UCT between 31C and 37C. At 23C and 31C, water deprivation did not affect body temperature, EWL or heat production. At 37C water deprivation increased body temperature and reduced EWL from 8 hours after exposure began, onwards, whereas heat production was not affected. Within 30 minutes of re-hydration the effects of previous dehydration disappeared. Dry thermal conductance increased with ambient temperature. At 37C conductance of dehydrated birds was lowered.

 

Introduction p43

 

From a welfare viewpoint, not only the momentary effect of adverse conditions on the pigeon’s thermoregulation is of interest, but also its ability to recover. Dehydrated pigeons almost fully replenish body water reserves within 30 minutes when given access to water. [/b]

 

Discussion p54

 

Effects of water deprivation

 

During dehydration period, the effects of water deprivation on body temperature and EWL depended on ambient temperature and exposure time. Total heat production depended only on ambient temperature. At 23C and 31C, water deprivation did not affect thermoregulatory parameters. At 37C, body temperature increased, and EWL decreased, possibly due to osmotic trigger to save body water levels. Dehydration results in increased serum electrolyte and protein concentrations, and osmotic stress reduces respiration frequencies which causes a skip to behavioural thermoregulation to maintain normal body temperature.

 

Increase in Body heat and decrease in EWL developed from 6/8 hours after start of water deprivation, at 37C, birds had evaporated 3.9% of their body weight as water, total body water content assumed @ 65%. Heat exposed pigeons become dehydrated during lights off even when water is available.

 

Recovery from dehydration p55

 

Within 30 minutes of taking water ( drank 7% of body weight = mean weight loss ) body temperature and body weight returned to normal. EWL recovery was slower.