DEFRA

[Pompey Mick]

The Saga goes on, having just re-arranged our Fed YB programme it looks as if there is a chink of light on the horizon.

 

Dear All

 

Just spoken to DEFRA.  They have a further meeting on Monday with some kind of decision/review probably on Tuesday.  My French contact with an ear to the French Government has indicated that the French government may review the situation Tuesday next week so watch this space.  Belgium has indicated that we can race from there but of course this is dependant on DEFRA changing their ban.  I have advised DEFRA that Belgium is an option for us if France continue their ban. Spain it would seem is out of the question whilst they insist on 45 days notice of liberations and anyway this will be far too far for YBs.

 

Further update next week as and when.

 

 

 

Regards

 

 

 

Peter Bryant

 

General Manager

 

 

 

[expat1]

Hi

Does anyone know what Peter Bryant means, He says that  Spain will not allow the English there unless given 45 days notice and that Spain is too far for young birds, that last statement is a bit unusual to say the least

A strange thing to say regards the young Birdsof course they are too young it does not even apply

Now if you fanciers are racing in the International Races, You are racing under the rules of the Organisation who sponsers it, ie. Belgium

So there fore you should not need to have this 45 day thing when you are racing with another country i am sure this is correct and you should point this out to Peter Bryant right away

Of course this applies only if Defra lift the ban but if it does all you should be able to race in the International races from Spain, your pigeons will go over to Belgium and join up there as usual

Steve

[expat1]

That is what i am saying Rose, I will send Peter Bryant an Email and explain to him

He will probably tell me to keep out of it or ignore me, If defra lift the ban, there is no reason why you cannot send international, You too should ask him the reason why

It maybe that he simply does not know, and the way he mentions young birds flying from Spain he does not

Steve

[expat1]

Rose,

I have sent Peter Bryant an E Mail this morning explaining to him about the International Races, permits and Licences etc and why the BICC should be able to compete in the rest of the International Races, if Defra lifts the Ban.

I do not know if he will reply but i hope so

Steve

The International Race drom Marseille will now take place from PORT BOU i have not yet looked it up on the map

[Guest]

y dont we all do what bilco says in the homing world and sens in all the dead birds ;D ;D

[Guest]

y dont we all do what bilco says in the homing world and sens in all the dead birds ;D ;D

 

Thinking about an email myself, to BHW letters page. OK advocating something that will solve problems or bring about a change of mind, what Bilco proposes does neither - and it is all nicely wrapped up in glossy facts, pity these facts are also misleading & wrong.

[Guest]

Latest Risk Assessment, published 12th July, but only deals with H5N1 transmission by migratory wild birds. Lot of new and interesting stuff in it about different wild bird species and their habits, that tends to gloss-over the real facts on the current outbreaks in Europe - and that is a new outbreak of a new H5N1 strain which first occurred amongst poultry in Czech Republic, and there appears to have been a spill-over from that outbreak into the wild migratory bird population which has spread the virus westwards, causing relatively huge numbers of deaths amongst the wild population, especially in Germany.

 

http://www.defra.gov.uk/animalh/diseases/monitoring/pdf/qra-recentdevelopments120707.pdf

[Guest]

Wonder how many bruno at defra actually have a clue what any of it means

 

Well much of the report is given over to their latest new toy, a computer simulation programme [which they paid for] tracking the migratory pathways of wild birds.

 

I think more attention has been paid to that bit than the bit at the very beginning - outbreak started amongst farmed poulty, its a new strain of H5N1 in Europe which originated from far east. Money would have been better spent on a computer simulation programme that tracks how the infection arrived and where it is likley to go, methinks.

[Guest]

DEFRA published their pigeon racing Risk Assessment at the same time as the 'old' continental race licence. Think Peter Bryant's team needs to concentrate on that report, and commission research to disprove some of the 'issues' DEFRA raised in it.

 

I think a key to unravelling these issues lies in Turkey where domestic pigeons appear to have got infected with H5N1.  We need to know how that came about.

 

 

http://www.defra.gov.uk/animalh/diseases/notifiable/disease/ai/keptbirds/pigeons-ew.htm

 

 

And there is also a need for international co-operation in disproving SCOFAH's belief that pigeons are the bridge between wild birds and poultry population - ie it believes infected wild birds infect pigeons which carry infection to farms and infect poultry -  we need our own research to show hopefully that the source of infection is poultry, it spills over into wild birds thro poor farming methods; and how have some pigeons come into contact with the virus in the wild?  Once we know that, and can prove it, we can take pigeons out of DEFRA's firing line.

 

 

[johno]

Bruno why do you not raise funding to go at it your way. I am sure that the excellent husbandry and methods in the pigeon fancy will encourage the farmers who havent a clue to follow their example. DEFRA should employ you as an unidentified authority. Do you think these people vets and other experts are not as well informed as you. get real for once have a bit of humility. stop jumping on bandwagons and using peoples fears and frustration to attempt to give your self a position of authority. you are as more often than not full of yourself. the secretary of the rpra has other tasks to fulfill. i do not see any other support from other organisations being villified.

[Guest]

well not that it will do any good but i have sent email to P Bryant with regards the other EU countries still competing in the internationals from SPAIN

[Roland]

The European Parliment states quite clearly that any and every member has the right to protect their shores / borders any way and as they see fit.

Hence DAFRA as this goverment's legal bodies has far over reaching powers than club / coher country or concerns, that should be quite simply to relate to and understand.

If every market member flies willy nilly but DAFRA say no to us, then to put it simply 'Then it's No'. We, the RPRA has no redress, nor any valid clause, channel other than to apply. That is simple reality.

  I would also say that Peter has his lines open to sauces all over the world in the regards of Avian Flu, it's merits and myths and personally believe hehas done a first class job. No one or concern would have, or could hae done better or more.

[expat1]

Roland

I have already said many times Peter Has done a good Job, But there is things he probably does not know or in other words think of it at the time, Owing to the fact he has plenty on his mind with all these problems and others

But the English or rather the BICC does not need any licences or permits from Spain to compete in the International Races, the only one body to stop them is Defra, not allowing the pigeons out of the country, Hopefully they will change there mind in the near future

[johno]

rose when do you want peter bryant to take his holidays. if there is an outbreak in january and he is not around maybe the start of racing will be affected. if there is one in may maybe no channel. the guy cannot be restricted to having holidays in october november.

[johno]

peter bryant has no control over this it is defra. there are some peole posting here that would have us believe that defra nad their staff do not know their jobs. lets be realistic. we have to rely on the structures taht are in place. a free for all achieves nothing. peter bryant can only pass on what the ruling ministry gives him as the current situation. we are governed by british laws not german french or belgium. rolands last post clearly outlines the position. straight forward.

[Guest]

Ordinarily I would agree with you Roland, but it is one thing to stop an activity that you think may solve a problem, and quite another to stop an activity that you know will solve a problem, based on research you have done to establish a cause and effect link between them.

 

The current restrictions aren't based on current evidence (the latest reference given is dated 2002). The first paragraph from the conclusion of DEFRA's latest pigeon racing risk assessment proves that it is not based on the most up to date  knowledge, scientific or otherwise:-

 

Conclusions

 

There is not a substantial evidence base to accurately define the level of risk that pigeons pose to spreading Asian lineage HPAI H5N1.

 

Now this is year 2 of the AI Restrictions. Just when does DEFRA intend to commission the research that establishes the evidence that will define the true level of risk that pigeons and pigeon racing poses?

 

No slight ever intended on Peter Bryant, he is simply named here as the person heading the multi-union negotiating team. No harm in exploring new grounds surely for the next round, and the gross inconsistency in handling of Bernard Matthew's affair compared with handling of pigeon racing must surely be item 1 on the agenda?

 

[johno]

club secretary role and that of peter bryant completely different rose. no comparisson can be made. the rpra are doing all they can given the current situation.

[Roland]

Bruno that be as it may, but DAFRA have to consider two things, one the threat, real or imaginary ad act accordingly. Secondarily, the public opinion and their’ votes.  Either way, regardless of he rot Expat! spukes out, NO party can over ride DAFRA, they are the voice of parliament in this regards. Now whether we agree, or not is another matter, but BICC or any international party or government can over turn, or even side step DAFRA.

To speak as Expat1 does is ludicrous to say the least. Further Peter Bryant has ALL the facts, relevant or not, and must play the cards dealt as he sees fit.

I have umpteen letters etc. from MP.s and EMP's as you and many more may recall, and lets face the facts, what DAFRA says goes... or don't. Golly we’ll have Crufts telling the MOD where to send the planes next lol.

[expat1]

Roland

I wish you would read the posts correctly,

I said if Defra Pass it that pigeons can continue to race over in france, Then the BICC does not require any permits fron Spain to race in the International Races, and this is correct, unless you know something about the organisations over here that i do not

ALL permits and Licences are to be got by the organisation who runs the race and that applies to England, and in this case the Race is run and Sponsered by the CFW, 'Club de Fond Wallonie' they obtain all permits and papers for ALL countires entering International Races in this particular Race

Defra can stop the English Fanciers Going abroad, They are in no way aurtorised to dictate the actual race programe

If they say the English cannot race out of  the country then that is so, BUT the BICC do not require any Paperwork from Spain to compete in the International Races and that is FACT, So sprout your rubbish to yourself because i think that is all you are capable of, a lot of Hot air not a straight foreward dissussion, anyone would think you would not like the BICC to have a chance of a race or two the way you carry on

 

[Roland]

Expat! what you say in '... I said if Defra Pass it that pigeons can continue to race over in france, Then the BICC does not require any permits fron Spain to race in the International Races, and this is correct, unless you know something about the organisations over here that i do not'  

That is true, of course it is, and if the Bull had had udders we'd milk it! BUT DAFRA have said no.... end of story, and you can write, email till your blue in the face, but until they release their stance we aren't going nowhere.

And as soon as ANY body  / concern has new data that may put Avian Flu in a different picture or light regarding pigeons then DAFRA and Peter Bryant will know within a very short space of time in deed.

[Roland]

Lol

[Guest]

Perhaps we should employ Bernard Matthews to work for us  ;D

 

well at least he has experience in bird flu  ;D ;D ;D

[expat1]

You know i do not think i have come across such an 'words are hard to describe him Meaning Roland, WE' know defra has to give the go ahead, I have said it so many times now, but you cannot take it in I wonder if you are sober

ONCE, it is PASSED, the BICC can race the International Program, WITHOUT getting Permits from SPAIN they have been apllied for and given to the govening body of that race, keep reading it Roland it may sink in sometime

[johno]

anyone who takes the time to read peter bryants updates will see that he has informed defra of the situation as he sees it. he hasinormed defra belgium is an option if defra say ok. it is clear to all he is operating on behalf of rpra members in uk. i fail to see what else he can do. as i have said before there does not apear to be any involvement from any of the other pigeon organisations in the uk. if there is there is no report of it anywhere. if it were not for the time and effort put into this by rpra representatives both paid and unpaid i hate to think where we would be. it is relatively straight forward to be a couch guru. more often than not though it is not veryy constructive.

[Pompey Mick]

The only argument which will hold sway with DEFRA as far as pigeon racing is concerned is a scientific one. Even that is not enough, this is part of an Email I received from Dr Timm Harder.

 

'your mail has been forwarded to me. I am head of the OIE and German National Reference Laboratory.

 

My colleague, Dr. Werner, now retired, has performed challenge experiments with pigeons using a (then) recent HPAIV H5N1 strain from SE Asia. Her results will be published and a manuscript is currently under review. Therefore, I can not give details of this study:

 

The overall outcome was that pigeons can be infected by a natural route with HPAIV H5N1 albeit high doses are required. Some pigeons will then develop central nervous signs. Virus is replicating predominantly in the CNS but can be found at lower loads also in other tissues. Some virus excretion can be detected but in the experimental setting no transmission to sentinel chickens kept in the same cage had occured.

 

This leads to the assumption that pigeons are unlikely to play a role in the spread of this virus. However, these results may be subject to virus strain-specific characteristics and it can not be excluded that results may differ when using other strains, e.g. isolates from the Qinghai lineage.

 

So, I think a general "amnesty" for pigeons should not be proclaimed on basis of these data.

 

Best regards,

 

Timm Harder

 

As you can see, with a mutating virus such as H5N1 no scientist yet will give pigeons the 'All Clear', and I am afraid Pigeon Racing does not have enough financial clout to force DEFRA to disregard this conclusion.

To Joe Public , pigeons are birds and if DFERA restricts pigeon racing to stop bird flu coming to our shores then they are doing a wonderful job in their eyes. Hopefully, Dr Ortrud Werner's forthcoming paper may help in getting DEFRA to commision a new risk assessment, but dont hold your breath.