Are you a member of the NFC?

[Michael J Burden]

If you are a member of the NFC can I ask that you take a look at the topic which I have put on the discussion page? It is about the events leading upto the liberation of the yb and OH's.

[Guest cloudview]

yes ive just looked at your comments , and fully agree with you, the birds flying  200 miles plus dont seem to have been given a good a fair crack of the whip  , the race would would have been tough enough with sunshine on their backs ,  im personally gutted  , ok igot one on the day , agood position , but that was it ,not seen afeather since,these were bred for the job well schooled and fit when sent

[Michael J Burden]

Cloudview from what I have gathered around here many had one or 2 back. None of those fanciers are mugs either and sent probably good birds to. Me i got 1 out of 10 sent to the NFC. All bred for the job well trained, got to get my fuel bill yet, and bred for the job.

 

Well done for getting one on the night I hope it goes onto do you some more good in the future.

[cottage lofts]

its been a bad season for us guys up here in section k

 

all decision making as been made with southern lofts in mind

 

ifs its been ok for them they have let them go.

[Tom Avis]

Hi All

I'm a member of the NFC and as requested posted a reply on that site.

Basically, I can't agree to a witch hut to attribute the blame, the weather this YB season has been rubbish and continues to be rubbish, any fanciers who enters YBs in a channel race knows the risks.

 

 

Regards

Tom

[Michael J Burden]

So having a race controller and over riding his "expert" advice is the norm? Why have such a position if they are not needed.

Yes Tom we all know the risks when sending to these ybs races. I was cautious and still have about 30 at home and only sent those that I could afford to loose, I have been sending to these events for many years now and know the score. But to overirde the race controller is a little odd.

[David Swain]

Don't think it was only the longest fliers who had a bad one. We fly only 148 miles from St Malo and had just four out of 12 YBs on the day, one next morning and none since. Several birds we are missing had already been over the Channel and all were previously raced, extensively trained and flying around home for a couple of hours at a time. We expected it to be a hard race because, from many years experience of flying YBs across the water, if there is any hint of North in the wind or a strong side wind as was the case on Sunday, the birds get taken well off course and struggle to fly the straight line we need to have any chance. Our first YB took six hours and was followed four minutes later by our first old hen which has probably flown the Channel about a dozen times in three years. Our other old hen entry, again a bird with plenty of Channel experience, didn't make it until 8am next morning and handled as though she had flown 500miles so it's no wonder so many YBs didn't make it. My guess is that if they came across the water at all they found themselves 200 miles off track to the east of us and too knackered to attempt the rest of the journey back into the wind. Looking at the result I guess the only people who were really happy with the liberation were to the East of the country. When you send to the National you have to accept that your chances are governed by the wind particularly if you are among the shorter fliers - but with a much better forecast for Monday why couldn't they have waited another day and given everyone a chance of getting more birds home.

[Guest]

its been a bad season for us guys up here in section k

 

all decision making as been made with southern lofts in mind

 

ifs its been ok for them they have let them go.

 

I think when you make such remarks study your geography and the weather. I lived in Huddersfield and Barnsley for 15 years. I can tell you that the southern lofts that benifited were those in the East (and good luck to them very few races are not dictated to geographically by the wind) and those in section K benefited from the conditions more than those down here in section D on the 'south coast'. The south coast is a far bigger area east to west than perhaps you realise. And to think that the decision is made to please southerners in general is silly. The weather Sunday was not good for us down in Devon; and in Cornwall the lads stood little chance of getting birds home, forget about competing!

I think the question you have to bare in my mind and I was discussing this very point Saturday evening, is the conundrum for the convoyers. Sunday's forecast looked as if it would be possible to liberate but might be dodgy, Mondays looked good. They had thousands of young birds in the basket, they had been there since Thursday. It doesn't do YB any good as we all know to be kept in the baskets, stress levels shoot up;  the conveyor will have wanted to get them going ASAP. So what does he do,  does he go Sunday balancing up all the factors or does he wait for the hopefull good forecast. In this instance he went for the risk and liberated sunday. I think he got it wrong BUT that's in hindsight. I wasn't sure until the race panned out.

The big question here is did he get it wrong because of negligence, i.e. a bad decision cosidering all available data or was it that the decision was wrong the risk was greater than it appeared. Let's be honest there's no one that doen't complain about how the weather men get it wrong, the poor old race controller/convoyer can only go on what he's given. It's a s==t job, I think it unfair to criticise in this instance. I think he gotit wrong, sometimes faced with such a decsion it'll be right, this time he didn't but it was a tough call.

I think I read mention of all the year's liberations, well look at the summer we've had I'm the wrong side of 50 and I can't remember a worse one, it's been diabolical.

And I would just like to mention Tarbes, I thought that was going to be a stinker of a race and possibly a real bad decision, but look at the performances put up in sections K & L. many since have said it's one of the finest in years, though I appreciate some of the big guns whose birds ended up in Ireland didn't think so.

My opinion is that we lack balanced views these days everyone has to be one side or the other, it must be right or it must be wrong. There are times when its neither. For my part I have no idea who the responsible person was for the NFC this year making the decisions. I'm sure the person will reflect on the races and it will make him/her a far better race controller/convoyer for it. Experience in anything is an advantage and this convoyer should only get better after the experince of this year. As a member I would like to thank him (her) for carrying out the task in what has been a pig of a year for pigeon racing.

[Ronnie]

I was studying the weather on the week leading up to this race and as soon as i heard the race point was changed it made my mind up and i  decided not to send.I may upset a few people by this statement but the end result lies with the fancier if you send the bird's then be prepared for them to be let go.It's ok after the fact to blame people for decisions but at the end of the day they are still people and people make mistakes.

[Roland]

I was studying the weather on the week leading up to this race and as soon as i heard the race point was changed it made my mind up and i  decided not to send.I may upset a few people by this statement but the end result lies with the fancier if you send the bird's then be prepared for them to be let go.It's ok after the fact to blame people for decisions but at the end of the day they are still people and people make mistakes.

 

Oh so very true, so very factual, bet you won't be toast of the ball now though...

like Chris nearly puts on his posts....

You won't get into trouble for fibbing ... Ah now tell the truth may well ...  ;D

[David Swain]

Don't think it would have made any difference if they had gone to Guernsey and liberated on Sunday. Given the wind, those that did leave the island would just have headed for the French coast and ended up well to the east.  

[Guest cloudview]

i was,nt to bothered about the wind direction, it was the continual heavy downpours that i was more  upset about never stopped all day in congleton  and im sure this was the pattern throghout the whole country ,, 24 hours extra would have made a lot of difference to race returns , granted you do expect to lose some at this distance, ive lost more young birds in this one race , than ive lost in the last 3 years  put together

[ribble]

i was,nt to bothered about the wind direction, it was the continual heavy downpours that i was more  upset about never stopped all day in congleton  and im sure this was the pattern throghout the whole country ,, 24 hours extra would have made a lot of difference to race returns , granted you do expect to lose some at this distance, ive lost more young birds in this one race , than ive lost in the last 3 years  put together

 

 

It was a good fly that youngster of yours, it certainly stuck at it. Well done.

 

[Roland]

As to 'Location' it is a simple fact that the wind on day has a major bearing.

As for Feds / Sections / nationals etc. it is simple to just look at the positions on any given race day - and the Wind direction.

Yes we, like most, have a predominately West / west in the wind.

Most can tell you where the wining section etc. will be before the liberation, unless of course there is a radical difference in the morning.

Why so many have moved to their location. Or would one have us believe that certain areas have a canny undoubted nature of producing winners! Suppose it could be in the water : P; D

Simplify over stated. Birds liberated at Thurso in a North West Wind. One flyer is in Lowerstoft, another in Holyhead, What odds are available? Indeed which one won't you be able to have a bet on?

To say, refer otherwise is ludicrous. Indeed another simple reason why nationals have so few sent in reality. Section bespoke for area. Arguments that more send in that area … well of course they do, they have a chance of at least a merit with a decent section, if not better! This is further obvious, because no one, who hasn’t a decent chance of a decent section bird at least, will not bother sending! They are and will be also runs, and their’ money wasted would be better spent on feed, Training etc. etc.

I mean does anyone want to fly against - like in our NFC - fanciers a 100 - 150 miles to their East? :-/ :-/ . Answer they don't!

Another reason why Nationals are regarded as a waste of time regards merit, and further I'm afraid will soon laughable.

It is only for most even now, that one realistically fly’s for a decent meriteous place in section... those able to.  7, yes just 7, in three counties now fly with the NRCC! So even now as they reverse their selfish, and ludicrous decision to have us fly against the Likes of Norwich / Kings Lynn, etc. etc. the damages is already done. And why was it done in the first place? For two reasons, One because sadly they could, and two, so muggings could bolster their coffers... no ego's as there is no taste in beating nothing!

[David Swain]

We had no rain to speak of in Dorset on Sunday and there wasn't any over the Channel where visibilty was good, so that certainly wasn't the reason for such poor returns. I still maintain it was all down to wind direction and strength.

[Ronnie]

Roland i agree with most of what you said.I myself fly the national for a chance to win the section, if the wind is favorable for secion L then thats a bonus i have flown 4 national race's upto now and never pooled in the open only section.The fact ive never won either is neither here nor there lol.

Its a chance to compete on a levelish field against the best flyers in my area.As of yet i am not upto there standard but only by competeing against them will i hope to get there.On a side note i did race the club on saturday from kingsdown but that was only 177 miles and the velocities where into the low 1500's i sent 11 and had 11 by night fall 9 with 10 min's of the winner

[Michael J Burden]

Some good comments on here but it has gone off on one. The NFC had had this on their notice board all day and not one official has responded so here is what is printed there for them, nothing added and nothing taken away. Hindsight had no part to play in anything from what I can see. The appointed race controller says do not liberate and some over rules him and lets go any way, breach of trust between member and organiser simple as that.

 

I sent my yb team to the national FC St.Malo despite the poor weather and predicted forecasts. I sent in the knowledge that they are in the premier club with what I consider to be the best transporter in the UK. I also believed that the people in charge of the birds and their subsequent liberation were sound headed and would not play fast and loose with them. If it was not fit to liberate they would bring them closer to home.

I said it on Saturday on the pigeon chat site that I could not understand why they had not gone on the Saturday. SW winds but poor weather with no real weather forecast for improvement. The events which did go seem to have had good races, very fast but gappy returns.

I was a little dismayed when they were liberated on the Sunday in what appeared to to the same conditions but with one big noticable difference, the wind. Strong SW on the channel with NW enroute! Yet Monday seemed to show good improvement.

Now I have heard that the race controller, the man who studies the weather etc advice was not to liberate on the Sunday! His advice was over ruled and a liberation went ahead. The returns were very poor one could say a bit of a disaster.

If this is true can we see the person who over ruled the designated offical put together a report showing how he came to the decision and why he liberated?

If it is true why have we got , or did have cause I understand that he has resigned in disgust, such a position.

[Michael J Burden]

Some good comments on here but it has gone off on one. The NFC had had this on their notice board all day and not one official has responded so here is what is printed there for them, nothing added and nothing taken away. Hindsight had no part to play in anything from what I can see. The appointed race controller says do not liberate and some over rules him and lets go any way, breach of trust between member and organiser simple as that.

 

I sent my yb team to the national FC St.Malo despite the poor weather and predicted forecasts. I sent in the knowledge that they are in the premier club with what I consider to be the best transporter in the UK. I also believed that the people in charge of the birds and their subsequent liberation were sound headed and would not play fast and loose with them. If it was not fit to liberate they would bring them closer to home.

I said it on Saturday on the pigeon chat site that I could not understand why they had not gone on the Saturday. SW winds but poor weather with no real weather forecast for improvement. The events which did go seem to have had good races, very fast but gappy returns.

I was a little dismayed when they were liberated on the Sunday in what appeared to to the same conditions but with one big noticable difference, the wind. Strong SW on the channel with NW enroute! Yet Monday seemed to show good improvement.

Now I have heard that the race controller, the man who studies the weather etc advice was not to liberate on the Sunday! His advice was over ruled and a liberation went ahead. The returns were very poor one could say a bit of a disaster.

If this is true can we see the person who over ruled the designated offical put together a report showing how he came to the decision and why he liberated?

If it is true why have we got , or did have cause I understand that he has resigned in disgust, such a position.

[Guest cloudview]

 

What was the weather like where you were on the saturday and monday

 

hi rose saturday locally was good very warm , and hard to beleive that our fed had held over at chelenham 86 miles away , monday was overcast but brighter if you know what i mean and no rain , so sunday was the worst of the weekend

[Guest]

Michael, I hate rumour and conjecture. I don't like things being swept under the table either and if you are right then you deserve credit for bringing this to everyone's attention............ however at the moment this is speculation. I would like to see some flesh on this. Who over ruled the controller and why? And more importantly who has chosen to supply you with this information, or is it first hand knowledge you have from the person who was over ruled?

Some of this might be delicate information I appreciate, however he bottom line for me is that if this actually happened why would the 'source' of this information not wish to disclose it?

[Michael J Burden]

Albear Many reasons which I am not going into. My lips are sealed and will remain so.

 

It is not a witch hunt which I wanted addressing it is answers and learning. If that learning means new appointments then that is the price to pay for failure if failure or bad decision making has happened.

 

I have seen responses now on the NFC chat site from some of the officialdom. Something very has indeed. It may be that heads are coming out of the sand and the organisation can move forward and grow to something like it used to be. I will not hold my breath though.

 

The power we fanciers hold is all down to the knowledge that we all have at our finger tips. Those that have not got a computor have the local library. With the internet we have access to all the information they have before the decisions are made and can see if it is bad or good based on what we see at the time. Not like to old days where we used to wait for the pigeon paper once a week and a month would go by with very little information being known and then forgotten about.

 

I have put a response on their site in reply to the race advisor (weather consultant) for want of a better name and paste it here for anyone who cares to read it.

 

Thanks Roy for you reply. At least it gives some answer in the interim.

I shall not be putting my name forward as race controller or advisor. One I do not have the time and two I am sure there are some out there who are cleaverer and more inteligent than me. Alan Sugars once said one of the reasons to his success is reconising that fact and emplying them.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing but when the discusion and decision making is questioned before hand then it surely is bad judgement by the decision makers when they get it wrong.

I too know how difficult yb national racing is too. I have lost pigeons on good days like everyone else. I choose to send mine last Thursday, I did consider forfeiting my entry money but expected the birds would be well looked after and if the weather was not so good that experience and that employed judgement would count for a great deal.

Well done the winners and timers and condolances to those who failed. There is always next year.

 

 

PS Very well done Ray Grimsdell of Burton for timing the only yb on the day in section I. Terrific performance.

[Guest]

Thanks Michael