As I see it!

[Roland]

Please don’t let me sway views, just perhaps some contents. Indeed, I’ve voiced my opinion oft on this very matter.

It isn’t the ‘Success', or the 'Renown name’ of the poster that counts, but the context that is written.

Golly I've see very often-great flyers go hammer and tongs at each other.

Yet I feel that the ‘Name’ gives an unfair and slanted view, which almost become automatically accepted as gospel, Indeed far too often, and the 'masses' rallying around to defend the 'Name' Floor boards creak, and wood work crumbles often if some one even dares ask for a totem of truth, honesty, let alone a factual fact!

And we all know that is correct, let alone right. Even good posters become 'Wanna be's to hang on their shirt tails.

Golly one should just remember some of the disgraceful acts some have done, some of their dishonest, and despicable dealing that a ‘Name’ has got away with. BECAUSE they are a ‘Name’!

Further, personally, feel very much in the Freedom of speech, the right to voice it… but not the right to slander, ridicule or belittle, this via a ‘Name, a normal poster, or a None de plume. The end product is invariably the same. That is that some honest person feels that they can no longer post, visit, or feel comfortable with a given site. This has to be bad, no only for the site, but also for the ‘Fancy’ in general.

As for banning anyone, one must remember in actual fact it IS the Computer that is in effect banned. But sooner than later the poster gets fed up of having to use another computer and just fades.

 

[ch pied]

good post

[Ian McKay]

That's why I do not post

 

Well said Roland

[just ask me]

good post is there a reason or something that happened as to why u posted it

[Ian Gill]

Please don’t let me sway views, just perhaps some contents. Indeed, I’ve voiced my opinion oft on this very matter.

It isn’t the ‘Success', or the 'Renown name’ of the poster that counts, but the context that is written.

Golly I've see very often-great flyers go hammer and tongs at each other.

Yet I feel that the ‘Name’ gives an unfair and slanted view, which almost become automatically accepted as gospel, Indeed far too often, and the 'masses' rallying around to defend the 'Name' Floor boards creak, and wood work crumbles often if some one even dares ask for a totem of truth, honesty, let alone a factual fact!

And we all know that is correct, let alone right. Even good posters become 'Wanna be's to hang on their shirt tails.

Golly one should just remember some of the disgraceful acts some have done, some of their dishonest, and despicable dealing that a ‘Name’ has got away with. BECAUSE they are a ‘Name’!

Further, personally, feel very much in the Freedom of speech, the right to voice it… but not the right to slander, ridicule or belittle, this via a ‘Name, a normal poster, or a None de plume. The end product is invariably the same. That is that some honest person feels that they can no longer post, visit, or feel comfortable with a given site. This has to be bad, no only for the site, but also for the ‘Fancy’ in general.

As for banning anyone, one must remember in actual fact it IS the Computer that is in effect banned. But sooner than later the poster gets fed up of having to use another computer and just fades.

 

One hell of a post Roland and as good as Ive seen on any forum in 9 years...many of these "Names" are now celebities in their own minds and have a following of disciples who jump all over anyone who queries .

 

[Larry Lucas]

Sorry, Roland, I don't get your point. I see points made on all sides of every discussion. Perhaps things are different on my side of the pond, but as I read these forums I don't see the kind of "class warfare" you are describing.  Wasn't your Grandfather the late great Alf Baker? Now there is a great name that attracted admirers and knockers alike. How does this discussion relate to his good success and good reputation? He was honored for his accomplishments and I see the same thing happening for those who succeed today. There are always those who "kiss up" to the successful and hang onto their coattails and those who feel compelled to knock the successful. No one is above criticism but fair is fair, wouldn't you agree? It seems that as soon as someone is successful the knockers and detractors come out in force. What a pity, and poor sportsmanship to boot. Honor to whom honor is due, even if it is fleeting.

[gangster]

very good post roland

[Guest Freebird]

Very thought provoking. Excellent post Roland.

[Ian Gill]

Sorry, Roland, I don't get your point. I see points made on all sides of every discussion. Perhaps things are different on my side of the pond, but as I read these forums I don't see the kind of "class warfare" you are describing.  Wasn't your Grandfather the late great Alf Baker? Now there is a great name that attracted admirers and knockers alike. How does this discussion relate to his good success and good reputation? He was honored for his accomplishments and I see the same thing happening for those who succeed today. There are always those who "kiss up" to the successful and hang onto their coattails and those who feel compelled to knock the successful. No one is above criticism but fair is fair, wouldn't you agree? It seems that as soon as someone is successful the knockers and detractors come out in force. What a pity, and poor sportsmanship to boot. Honor to whom honor is due, even if it is fleeting.

 

Maybe things are slightly different on your side of the pond, though I seriously doubt it..Take this forum for instance Larry,started by Richard when still at school, without a "team" of celebrity fanciers to promote it for him and he has done a fantastic job of it, without getting the true recognition he so rightly deserves !!

 

Then we have the the websites started by "names" in the sport, who assemble a team of well known fanciers and tell us its the best thing since sliced bread..many of the names contribute interesting and informative posts for while or more to the point, until the membership numbers are sufficient to introduce the endorsements,sales of pigeons and any other number of commercial aspects to their captive audience.

 

Whether you agree or disagree, this sport of ours is dying on its feet due to innumerable curcumstances and there are those amongst us who care enough to speak out and say it as we see it ,without any prejudice or bias I might add.

 

I know through your vocation in life that perhaps you see the good in all men,so to quote a line from your "manual" I will finish with this

 

Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves

 

[Guest shadow]

very good posts

[DOVEScot]

 

Maybe things are slightly different on your side of the pond, though I seriously doubt it..Take this forum for instance Larry,started by Richard when still at school, without a "team" of celebrity fanciers to promote it for him and he has done a fantastic job of it, without getting the true recognition he so rightly deserves !!

 

Then we have the the websites started by "names" in the sport, who assemble a team of well known fanciers and tell us its the best thing since sliced bread..many of the names contribute interesting and informative posts for while or more to the point, until the membership numbers are sufficient to introduce the endorsements,sales of pigeons and any other number of commercial aspects to their captive audience.

 

Whether you agree or disagree, this sport of ours is dying on its feet due to innumerable curcumstances and there are those amongst us who care enough to speak out and say it as we see it ,without any prejudice or bias I might add.

 

I know through your vocation in life that perhaps you see the good in all men,so to quote a line from your "manual" I will finish with this

 

Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves

 

Spot on  

[ch pied]

 

Maybe things are slightly different on your side of the pond, though I seriously doubt it..Take this forum for instance Larry,started by Richard when still at school, without a "team" of celebrity fanciers to promote it for him and he has done a fantastic job of it, without getting the true recognition he so rightly deserves !!

 

Then we have the the websites started by "names" in the sport, who assemble a team of well known fanciers and tell us its the best thing since sliced bread..many of the names contribute interesting and informative posts for while or more to the point, until the membership numbers are sufficient to introduce the endorsements,sales of pigeons and any other number of commercial aspects to their captive audience.

 

Whether you agree or disagree, this sport of ours is dying on its feet due to innumerable curcumstances and there are those amongst us who care enough to speak out and say it as we see it ,without any prejudice or bias I might add.

 

I know through your vocation in life that perhaps you see the good in all men,so to quote a line from your "manual" I will finish with this

 

Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves

100%

 

 

[Roland]

Ian very well said.

I feel we have promted a core that runs through our sport, one that has been needed to be said for such a very long time. No honest minded person that has been in the sport for a litle time can help but know the truth of what you have just stated.

I say it is the very real fear of being decried, belittled as a laugh or joke that stops so many saying what we both feel / know to be true... as you have re - initiated above. Well said.

Was a time when a few of us felt  we were a lone voice in the wilderness. But I suspect, believe, that is not in essence the real case. But, sadly, too many won't speak, and too many try and then dispondently just pack the sport up.

 

[Larry Lucas]

 

Maybe things are slightly different on your side of the pond, though I seriously doubt it..Take this forum for instance Larry,started by Richard when still at school, without a "team" of celebrity fanciers to promote it for him and he has done a fantastic job of it, without getting the true recognition he so rightly deserves !!

 

Then we have the the websites started by "names" in the sport, who assemble a team of well known fanciers and tell us its the best thing since sliced bread..many of the names contribute interesting and informative posts for while or more to the point, until the membership numbers are sufficient to introduce the endorsements,sales of pigeons and any other number of commercial aspects to their captive audience.

 

Whether you agree or disagree, this sport of ours is dying on its feet due to innumerable curcumstances and there are those amongst us who care enough to speak out and say it as we see it ,without any prejudice or bias I might add.

 

I know through your vocation in life that perhaps you see the good in all men,so to quote a line from your "manual" I will finish with this

 

Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves

 

Ian, I understand what you say above but it truth, like the poor, those who twist the truth for gain, or at the very least are skillful in the way they package and market their "product" have always been with us and always will be with us.  Your example of a website: some people are simply more skillful in marketing -- and websites rise and fall like the weather. Just consider Pipa of a few years ago and Pipa of today. But, I post here because I like some of the discussion and most of it is helpful to a fancier. I like the other forums as well. As an outsider looking into these discussions it appears to me that when someone does well and attempts to sell a few birds it is assumed they are crooked as a dog's hind leg. Any form of commercial interest is deemed tainted by definintion. Sometimes that is so, many times it is not. I stopped buying the Squills yearbook because it was nothing but advertisements that stretched the imagination! Sitting in my home here if one believed all of these ads the UK has a dozen champions in very village and hamlet.  ;D The point is, no one believes these exaggerations, and in the quest to unmask the crooks it seems everyone is labeled a crook.  Making an honest profit is not evil, but the ancient phrase caveat emptor is always wise. Just an observation.

 

Ian very well said.

I feel we have promted a core that runs through our sport, one that has been needed to be said for such a very long time. No honest minded person that has been in the sport for a litle time can help but know the truth of what you have just stated.

I say it is the very real fear of being decried, belittled as a laugh or joke that stops so many saying what we both feel / know to be true... as you have re - initiated above. Well said.

Was a time when a few of us felt  we were a lone voice in the wilderness. But I suspect, believe, that is not in essence the real case. But, sadly, too many won't speak, and too many try and then dispondently just pack the sport up.

 

Roland, to be honest these cries of fraud and the poor, innocent, deceived, abused fancier have been around as long as discussion forums have been in existence. Nothing new there. But the real reason most fanciers pack it in has nothing to do with fanciers who feel they are untouchable because of fame and everything to do with the conduct of the nasty snipping gits in local clubs who are not held to account for their bad conduct; difficulty maintaining birds in communities with restrictions against pigeons and the demands of family and work, and finally local clubs not opening membership to newcomers. I would say the first reason I list is the main one. Just the way I see it.

 

[Larry Lucas]

[continued]

 

Ian, I agree with the basics of much of what you say. I just have difficulty seeing it as a major problem and the way Roland describes it seems disconnected from reality. I think there are much bigger problems in the sport than this and that problem is found in the local clubs.

[ch pied]

 

Ian, I understand what you say above but it truth, like the poor, those who twist the truth for gain, or at the very least are skillful in the way they package and market their "product" have always been with us and always will be with us.  Your example of a website: some people are simply more skillful in marketing -- and websites rise and fall like the weather. Just consider Pipa of a few years ago and Pipa of today. But, I post here because I like some of the discussion and most of it is helpful to a fancier. I like the other forums as well. As an outsider looking into these discussions it appears to me that when someone does well and attempts to sell a few birds it is assumed they are crooked as a dog's hind leg. Any form of commercial interest is deemed tainted by definintion. Sometimes that is so, many times it is not. I stopped buying the Squills yearbook because it was nothing but advertisements that stretched the imagination! Sitting in my home here if one believed all of these ads the UK has a dozen champions in very village and hamlet.  ;D The point is, no one believes these exaggerations, and in the quest to unmask the crooks it seems everyone is labeled a crook.  Making an honest profit is not evil, but the ancient phrase caveat emptor is always wise. Just an observation.

 

 

 

Roland, to be honest these cries of fraud and the poor, innocent, deceived, abused fancier have been around as long as discussion forums have been in existence. Nothing new there. But the real reason most fanciers pack it in has nothing to do with fanciers who feel they are untouchable because of fame and everything to do with the conduct of the nasty snipping gits in local clubs who are not held to account for their bad conduct; difficulty maintaining birds in communities with restrictions against pigeons and the demands of family and work, and finally local clubs not opening membership to newcomers. I would say the first reason I list is the main one. Just the way I see it.

larry can you lend me them rose tinted glasses  , larry you are good for this site , as you have an un- biased  view , and as ian say's , you look- for the good in man-kind  , and that i commend you for but ,alise sir all is not rosey in the garden , not by a long chalk , as i said iam on the in-side , when iam told to be ECONMICAL WITH THE TRUTHE WHEN CALLED BEFORE THE (NIPA )clock comm ) this stick's in the craw , big time , , this has been eating at me for some  3years + , and iam gut sick ,

 

 

[Guest slugmonkey]

This Forum has weathered everything from dissention to outright PETA infiltration and I hate to say it but there are so many dead horses lying about you can't swing a dead cat without hitting one !

If you look at the number of posts and the content over the years it has definatly changed a lot from what it is today, just do some research into what ever subject you have a query about before you ask it and it is probably already been discussed thrice here although several of the " Vetrans of the Loft " hardly post here anymore it is amazing how much of the same information is rehashed on an annual basis and the same arguments still rage ( If you dont belive me start a post about eyesign ) I personally have slowed my posting from semi daily to once or twice a month although I still answer a lot of PM's ( feel free as I try to answer quickly ) most I have found on here aren't really looking for answers just someone to validate the feelings they have on a certain subject and if that someone has a lot of stars behind their name so much the better.

  

[Roland]

Yes other problems, like small back gardens, not safe allottments, Missis and kid expecting and demanding more time etc. etc. BUT none of these have a real bearing whatsoever with the Fanciers already flying, or worse still  Have flew.

Costs, well that afects every sport and past time!

I'd w4ager that more pack up through bias and selfish reasons of the unfair bias's of the more and better positioned and located lofts. In deed far out wieghs ALL the other reasons by far put together.

Was a Healthy contigent that flew the NRCC every year. Indeed they transported our birds with theirs on certain races - and still do.

By one vote they decided to extend the SECTION right out to the EAST coast. 3 members stayed. TThey have since recinded and put back the once accepted and ludicruss boundaries, and gained just 3 more memebers, Indeed I make it the 7th member!

Now all very well saying it is voted in via the majority etc.  What gets my goat, and all the rest, is 'Just why did this futile and very negative proposition get put forward in the first place!

To bolster the more ables coffers.

In the South Rd, the NFC did the same, extended our radious to the East coast. We left in droves...  never went back!. Believe that was also put off, or back... no matter damage is done.

So now NO programme is able to be done in our club because some won't rejoin, other joined another, and what not. So it is the same members flying against JUST A few of the club members in any so called National, and that with the CNsfc whatever make the BICC THE Nrcc, the MNFC, THE NFC etc. so they are really a waste of time, and a pathetic joke flying in. Indeed more creedence is flying for Club and fed Honours!

Again in the Great North Rd uptil the early 60's Every body enter the National as per norm. Many just one or two, the other 3 or four were just left in the club - becuase of the extra pence  with a wing and a prayer that they'd entered the best birds! Reg Gutheridge sent 7 for instance. Left three out. Yes you've guessed it, one had a stormer and would have won the Gold Cup / Kings Cup the whole shebungle, etc. Jst won the fed.

We need sensible section that pertain to what the wind is predominately! Mostly west in it. Length much rather than distance, preferably boat shaped... But this again needs to be under a another

which I may start a little later under Fairer Sections.

[Larry Lucas]

Yes other problems, like small back gardens, not safe allottments, Missis and kid expecting and demanding more time etc. etc. BUT none of these have a real bearing whatsoever with the Fanciers already flying, or worse still  Have flew.

Costs, well that afects every sport and past time!

I'd w4ager that more pack up through bias and selfish reasons of the unfair bias's of the more and better positioned and located lofts. In deed far out wieghs ALL the other reasons by far put together.

Was a Healthy contigent that flew the NRCC every year. Indeed they transported our birds with theirs on certain races - and still do.

By one vote they decided to extend the SECTION right out to the EAST coast. 3 members stayed. TThey have since recinded and put back the once accepted and ludicruss boundaries, and gained just 3 more memebers, Indeed I make it the 7th member!

Now all very well saying it is voted in via the majority etc.  What gets my goat, and all the rest, is 'Just why did this futile and very negative proposition get put forward in the first place!

To bolster the more ables coffers.

In the South Rd, the NFC did the same, extended our radious to the East coast. We left in droves...  never went back!. Believe that was also put off, or back... no matter damage is done.

So now NO programme is able to be done in our club because some won't rejoin, other joined another, and what not. So it is the same members flying against JUST A few of the club members in any so called National, and that with the CNsfc whatever make the BICC THE Nrcc, the MNFC, THE NFC etc. so they are really a waste of time, and a pathetic joke flying in. Indeed more creedence is flying for Club and fed Honours!

Again in the Great North Rd uptil the early 60's Every body enter the National as per norm. Many just one or two, the other 3 or four were just left in the club - becuase of the extra pence  with a wing and a prayer that they'd entered the best birds! Reg Gutheridge sent 7 for instance. Left three out. Yes you've guessed it, one had a stormer and would have won the Gold Cup / Kings Cup the whole shebungle, etc. Jst won the fed.

We need sensible section that pertain to what the wind is predominately! Mostly west in it. Length much rather than distance, preferably boat shaped... But this again needs to be under a another

which I may start a little later under Fairer Sections.

 

Bad sportsmanship seems alive and well. Sounds like it is overdue to petition the national organization to draft requirements about clubs, feds, etc. If the national organization arbitrarily sets all boundries, would that help?

 

[Roland]

Bad sportsmanship seems alive and well. Sounds like it is overdue to petition the national organization to draft requirements about clubs, feds, etc. If the national organization arbitrarily sets all boundries, would that help?

 

 

Yes, it certainly is! BUT sadly it is the Good Sportsmen, the genuine salts that just pack up. those with the lust to win at all costs never pack up, against their nature... But some how I don't understand, or visualise that is what beinga 'Sportsman' is all about.

Was always led to believe,one has to learn to lose with grace before one can win with  ...

Yes and most of the file and rank do just that, week in and week out, and are so very proud when acheiving just a little sucess.

It certainly ISN'T them that are the problem! Golly the members well swell again if only more were like the 'Rank and File'.

Yet isn't just so, as soon as they ask, or query, then the crap sceanarios come out. Unfortunately always at the wrong element.

Most are so far up their own *expletive removed* with self importance, andtheir Goal that they can never smell the coffee, let alone any roses.

Shame that!

AND yet the grass roots carry on dispite of them and try to enjoy the simple pleasures

[homebird]

New .Only started this year ,joined a club bred some pigeons ,never raced due to bad weather ,birds not well,working on marking nights,lost a couple to a hawk, lost six to a fox, polecat got 2 , :(still got twenty for next year obs,...met some great people young and old ,gifted birds by the fancy,club members always helpful,never witnessed any bad feeling in the club same people in the first three each week,cant wait till next year.lots of ups and downs and a lot more to come,..Its a hobby to me not my life,if people upset me ill strap a pair on and theyd better do the same.thats not confrontational, its life in general .having fun homebird.

[Larry Lucas]

Yes, it certainly is! BUT sadly it is the Good Sportsmen, the genuine salts that just pack up. those with the lust to win at all costs never pack up, against their nature...

 

Roland, you are dead right with that observation!

 

It really is difficult to legislate bad behaviors, but perhaps the old-fashioned idea of a sargeant-at-arms (Roberts Rules of Order governing meetings) could be initiated again wherein the SAT levies fines for displaying lack of respect. Hit them with a 25.00 Stirling fine every time they spout crap to a fellow member -- they will soon stop their preening and ripping up of fellow members if they must pay for the privilege! ;D ;D Just joking, of course (maybe not!). What you describe is endemic in our culture: a forsaking of civil society and good sportsmanship. Not just true of pigeon fanciers, but across the board in all volunteer organizations.

 

 

[Roland]

Never said otherwise! But that doesn't mean 'Change' isn't needed.

You know, just look around, the sucessful clubs are the happy clubs that have a 'Spirit' a Team spirit where they socialise, help each other and have the cheerful banter. Yes there are some... Mostly with a hard working sec and a decent 'Dictator' with the 'GOOD of the Club' at heart.

Other clubs in Fed strive to attain same... but won't run a Raffle, or Lottery number even, let alone Fund - Raisers... Mostly they are ego trippers that want to win at all costs.

But their clubs fold one after the other.

Often heard 'Club forming to be a winner' - never works, because they always have another 'Winner' joining.

But on the flip side, very often it is to get rid of certain members... Winners maybe, but more often than not, horrid persons.

When I first started a typical one said to me' Ah remember your dad... couldn't fly a Kite, and flew stray's'! Should have slapped him... but then realised he applied every year to join 2- 3 clubs, and refused everytime. Flew with 3 other like manner... He died not long after and they couldn't form a marking station...... They held their birds, but inevitably packed up as no club would let them in.

Bad sportsmanship?!

All clubs were better off without them, so evil necate...?

Their' attitude stunk and was rank, it was like a cancer that spread amongst anyone silly enough to listen to them. Funnily enough, all 4 were moneywise well off. But the rank and file beat them nigh every week in the Federation.

[Ian Gill]

I would love to meet up with you sometime Larry and chew the fat over some of these issues, as I have always enjoyed your input over the years on posts whatever the topic

 

The mention of websites was a generalisation and the problems mentioned are in no way endemic to the internet. As you rightly said most of the problems lie at the very grass roots level of the sport and until such times as fanciers catch themselves on and treat each other with a bit of respect and conduct themselves with a modicum of dignity, then we are on a very slippery slope.

 

On the commercialisation front...what are we to do ?? Now as someone who has been making his own money since the age of eight, I have no problem regarding a little free enterprise, but when commercialisation is taken to the extreme by dubious methods are we to sit back and take it on the chin??

 

Give me your thoughts Larry as to how we could go forward in all this ..everyone has his theories as to how to take the sport forward and I sure have mine, though they might fill the rest of this forum   ;)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest slugmonkey]

I am the club secratary, race secratary, treasurer, and part time driver, hence my point too many are relying on the efforts of the few!