Family face home loss over birds

[pigeonscout]

I have yet to hear of anyone having to get other kinds of birds out of their garden from budgies and chickens to birds of prey it seems this law is only enforced on pigeon fanciers.

Are pigeons fanciers the only ones not allowed to keep their pets in the garden?

[gangster]

  as per usual pigeon fanciers treated like a second class citizens !!!  id take em to the european courts of human rights!

[Guest IB]

It would help if we knew the whole story. Planning Laws in Northern Ireland don't seem much different to those that apply to the rest of the UK, judging by this:-

 

Statutory Instrument 1991 No. 1220 (N.I. 11)

The Planning(Northern Ireland) Order 1991

 

Meaning of “developmentâ€

    11.—(1)  In this Order, subject to paragraphs (2) to (4), "development" means the carrying out of building, engineering, mining or other operations in, on, over or under land, or the making of any material change in the use of any buildings or other land.

 

    (2)  The following operations or uses of land shall not be taken for the purposes of this Order to involve development of the land—

 

© the use of any buildings or other land within the curtilage of a dwelling-house for any purpose incidental to the enjoyment of the dwelling-house as such;

 

Development requiring planning permission

    12.    Subject to this Order, planning permission is required for the carrying out of any development of land.

 

So yiou can keep pigeons in an existing shed, and if it was a new neighbour  who bought the house next door knowing that there was a loft in the neighbouring garden, then there is also Case Law which should have meant the complaint shouldn't have gone beyond the Council So it would also help to know what legal representation this pigeon fancier had against the Council, and in Court.

[showman]

Over the past few years I have talked to John about his problems with his loft etc

To my knowledge, when the family moved to their current address, they erected the loft as it is now. The arrival of the loft envoked a negative reaction from existing neighbours, who in turn, got the local Borough Council involved. From there it went to the Divisional Planning office and ultimately the Courts.

The Northern Ireland Planning Service have published a list of Guidelines and Objectives, whilst also stating what issues may be involved.

1. All pigeon lofts require planning permission.

2. Changing use of an existing structure to keep pigeons in requires planning permission.

3. The floor area of the loft erected shall not exceed 8 square metres  ( for example  loft shoul not be bigger than 12' x 6' )

    Larger lofts are permitted viz : In a rural location or where there are very large curtilages. In some instances where the curtilage is restricted the floor area would be reduced.

4. The loft shall be raised between 1/2 metre and 1 metre off the ground. etc, etc.

Also, one of the issues they raise is : Many new suburban public housing estates and redevelopment areas have no tradition of pigeon keeping yet residents living or coming to live in these areas often do have such a tradition.

I think possibly this is the issue which envoked the displeasure of their neighbours and this then spiralled up to the Courts being involved.

I have known John, Michael and Annette for years. They are just a normal bunch of people, who do quite literally live for their pigeons. When novices have visited them, it would not be uncommon for them to be given the pick of the loft....nothing held back !! Fact !! I've also known that these 'pick of the loft' leave with no money changing hands. What a gesture !! How many of us can say that !! They are truly genuine people and I feel so sorry that their neighbours started this aggrevation without knowing what these people are really like. You can be my neighbours any day of the week !!

I wish them nothing but the best of luck in selling their house....and for God's sake John, suss out the neighbours and planning regs. at your next house......before you buy !!

Paul.  

[flyingteessider]

Id rent my house out for 6 month to smack heads  i wouldnt be botherd what state it was in when i got it back id teach them twats what a real nusence is ,Lets get it right the only law this man is breaking is keeping PIGEONS

[vanlink]

Family face home loss over birds

 

A Portrush family face losing their home after an eight year battle with planners over a pigeon loft in their back garden.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8260745.stm

 

This is very wrong. Here is an other example of the good that raising money for charities does to our image…absolutely nothing. We should be raising money to help fight these cases not buying mini buses etc. We really are stupid when it comes to looking after our selves. I thought that you did not need planning permission to have a pigeon loft so what’s going on here. I would also like to know if they are fighting this on their own or do they have the mighty unions united and behind them?

 

Is it not time once and for all to formulate a trust fund? Looked after by an elected committee who are charged with raising money for it. Then using this fund to protect our sport and members with any thing deemed to be appropriate. For Example:

 

1 Employing a Press Officer to search for and react to news stories pigeon related.

2 Employing a Public relations officer to put a positive spin on pigeon racing.

3 Employing a hawk officer to tackle the rspb including showing them in a negative light, release stories and images of pigeon slaughter to the media and put over a case to the government on our human right to race pigeons relatively hawk free.

4 Engage legal support where necessary to help with planning arguments and council bullying.

5 Contract private investigators to deal with such matters as pigeon thefts and arson.

6 Financial support for fanciers for any matter deemed appropriate. I.e. Arson.

 

I would urge the RPRA committee and leaders of all the unions to find a conscious and make this happen. Don’t just wait for some one to propose it. You have put your self forward as leaders so lead. We can not control you from the bottom up.    

 

[pigeonpete]

yes not good, this was posted up the other day. :-)

[kev43]

yes not good, this was posted up the other day. :-)

 

ai pete i read it other day aswell m8 bloody shockin way they goin on wi that family their heads must b in bits wi worry

[Guest KING BILLY]

Family face home loss over birds

 

A Portrush family face losing their home after an eight year battle with planners over a pigeon loft in their back garden.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8260745.stm

 

This is very wrong. Here is an other example of the good that raising money for charities does to our image…absolutely nothing. We should be raising money to help fight these cases not buying mini buses etc. We really are stupid when it comes to looking after our selves. I thought that you did not need planning permission to have a pigeon loft so what’s going on here. I would also like to know if they are fighting this on their own or do they have the mighty unions united and behind them?

 

Is it not time once and for all to formulate a trust fund? Looked after by an elected committee who are charged with raising money for it. Then using this fund to protect our sport and members with any thing deemed to be appropriate. For Example:

 

1 Employing a Press Officer to search for and react to news stories pigeon related.

2 Employing a Public relations officer to put a positive spin on pigeon racing.

3 Employing a hawk officer to tackle the rspb including showing them in a negative light, release stories and images of pigeon slaughter to the media and put over a case to the government on our human right to race pigeons relatively hawk free.

4 Engage legal support where necessary to help with planning arguments and council bullying.

5 Contract private investigators to deal with such matters as pigeon thefts and arson.

6 Financial support for fanciers for any matter deemed appropriate. I.e. Arson.

 

I would urge the RPRA committee and leaders of all the unions to find a conscious and make this happen. Don’t just wait for some one to propose it. You have put your self forward as leaders so lead. We can not control you from the bottom up.    

 

start a fund up and i will put 50£ IN FOR THE LEGAL FEE sory caps where locked

[Guest]

 

start a fund up and i will put 50£ IN FOR THE LEGAL FEE sory caps where locked

 

Great jesture. But it shouldn't be necessary, we all pay our 'Union dues', this should be done by the RPRA in my opinion. I think they should earn some of their money.

[Guest Owen]

Would it be worth making a collection to pay for a Lawyer to take the case on for them?  Has the Local Region been involved? What have they had to say about the situation? How about an approach to the RPRA? They are known to give money away to charitable insitutions. Surely here is a case that deserves all our suport.

What do the rest of you think? Should we stick together and fight for a friend and colleague?

[PIGEONJIMI]

A little more to the story http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/pigeonloving-family--face-losing-their-home-14495824.html

[Dodgy Trapper]

So What was the bottom line on this story, meaning the main reason.?

[vanlink]

I am sorry if this has been posted already but i can't just let it go. Our sport is dying and we must hang on for grim death and that includes birds of a feather stick together.

 

Would it be worth making a collection to pay for a Lawyer to take the case on for them?  Has the Local Region been involved? What have they had to say about the situation? How about an approach to the RPRA? They are known to give money away to charitable insitutions. Surely here is a case that deserves all our suport.

What do the rest of you think? Should we stick together and fight for a friend and colleague?

 

I have sent it to David bills and asked him to pass it on to the RPRA committe and i have sent a copy to the BHW. We should rally to force our leaders to deal with this.

 

A little more to the story http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.....r-home-14495824.html

 

Just read this, i would be keen to know if they have appealed? i was talking to a planner who said that most cases pass at the appeal stage but most people do not bother to appeal.

I am also confused about the planning need in the first place. Is northern Ireland not sunject to the same planning laws as the uk main land?

[bruno1]

I've merged the two threads on this, 'older' one appears first and gives more information on the background to the case. Hope this helps inform opinions.

[Guest Owen]

I am 100% with vanlint. Instead of wasting our money on things to make a select few look good, we need it to give our own members the suport and help they so badly need.

[showman]

Unfortunately, Vanlink, we do seem to have different planning regulations in Northern Ireland.

Any pigeon loft does need planning permission, as does changing the use of an existing building to keep pigeons in.

As I said in a previous posting, what I believe happened was they purchased this house and erected their loft without initially consulting with their prospective neighbours to ask if there would be any objections, or seeking the relevant legal planning permission. After the loft was erected, the neighbours took exception to their loft, and presented their objections to, I believe in the first instance, the local council. Due to there not being any planning approval sought nor given on the lofts' erection, the situation has evolved to where it is now.

 

[Guest]

 

Laws are laws sorry but if he,s broken them I,ve no simpathy for him,I would imagine a lot on here had to get planning permission to put up their lofts,if the council says one thing and you do the opposite then I,m sorry but its no good complaining afterwards.

Are you the type that goes exactly 30 miles an hour no matter how many people you hold up just so you can uphold the law?  Perhaps your a councillor or someone who would like to be?   Councils can be pedantic at the best of times but only when it suits them, you should be supporting your fellow fancier not beating him with a stick when he's down.   I hope the tables aren't turned and its you who needs help because I wonder if your attitude would stay the same if you needed help?    :-/

 

 

[Guest Owen]

Here in Britain you can not say, "The law is the law and can not be broken". Why. Because it is not a true statement. People are sent to prison for periods that do not mean what they say. When it suits the authorities they will either change the sentence or reduce it. We have a law about the age of consent, what a laugh that is. It is broken every day. Then as someone else said, the speed limits are broken as a matter of course. We even have a Baroness, who made the law on employing non British Workers, doing it herself and then she does not think she has done anything wrong. The Clown.

It is only when we are dealing with the weak and the vunerable that we seem to say, "The laws the law".

In this case there appears to be a technical problem, because the right procedure has not been followed. But surely there has to be a right of appeal. And if, as has been reported, the Fanciers concerned are as upright and popular as claimed, there must be room for manoeuvre.

As I have already said, I totally agree with vanlint, we need to know that our fellow Fanciers are getting the best of help and advice. PIGEON-MAN is behaving like a School Yard Bully by putting the boot in, at this time. These people are in deep trouble and do not need to be taunted and told that it is right for them to be made to suffer like this. Because it seems to me, that if they have made an error of judgement the penalty they will have to pay is way out of proportion. Especially when you think, that there are loads of us in a similar position, except that we have not had to defend ourselves like they have.

We all need to have the backing of the Union and the benefit of suport and help when these things happen. I remember a recent discussion about the repatriation of strays, when it was said that many of our fellow Fanciers do not have the finance to warrant forcing them to send for their strays. Well, if that is the case, they would be in no position to go to law if they needed to defend themselves. The law is only there to help the Big Guys. There is nothing democratic about Britain because the little people are at a huge disadvantage as far as the law is concerned. I think it is time we evened up the odds by working together. And helping these people would be an excellent place to start.      

[vanlink]

There was a time so i have been told when there was no hawk problem, and then it started in the west. The fanciers in the west complained but the fanciers that lived elsewhere did not have that problem so they did nothing. Now they complain, but it is too late and the fanciers in the west are nearly all gone. There is strength in numbers, but in little groups we are nothing. If this family is allowed to have there pigeons taken away with out a fight then it will happen again and again and one day it may be you, but there will not be any one left to help you. They should be helped to go to the European court of human rights because it must surly be a human right to keep pigeons providing it is done properly but also if they were to win then it would make it law to protect the rest of us.  We either stand together voluntarily or we put forward a proposition into our system to force our leaders to make it happen.

 

I am sure that we all believe that a defence is right. I am sure that we would all hope for the support if it were we. What we do not want to be doing is having a sale with birds donated by the top flyers all the time. They get burdened enough. This should be an even fee across the whole membership that covers legal representation on matters like this and fancier’s accused of killing hawks.

 

A proposition should be put forward to introduce an additional Fund. Do you know that we pay a ridiculously cheap fee to the RPRA, when you compare it to how much we pay for pigeons its quite poor in comparison. Just imagine what the RPRA could do if we paid the same amount that it cost to get a stray home.

 

Even if we did it for one year imagine what we could achieve.

 

Invest in an online schools education programme.

Cover legal fees to protect us in time of need.

Uk wide promotion of the sport

Government lobbying.

ETC ETC.

 

I have put the original post on all the forums I could find, I have sent it to David Bills asking him to pass it to the RPRA committee and I have sent it to the BHW. Its WAR.

[cleaner]

england  is gone as we no it  the bloody councils are  so lost in there own red tape they dont no which is fair  anymore   ok so he may have broke one of there  rules  the bloody imercraints do it all the time   and they  shouts  humane rights       write to the queen mate she is surposed to be on our side

[PIGEON_MAN]

Are you the type that goes exactly 30 miles an hour no matter how many people you hold up just so you can uphold the law?  Perhaps your a councillor or someone who would like to be?   Councils can be pedantic at the best of times but only when it suits them, you should be supporting your fellow fancier not beating him with a stick when he's down.   I hope the tables aren't turned and its you who needs help because I wonder if your attitude would stay the same if you needed help?    :-/

 

 

I probable break laws the same as anyone does but the last thing I would ask for was sympathy if I got caught.

[micci]

when i restarted three years ago, the neighbours, two to one side, one to the other. complained about the droppings on the washing and all the purple stains, i explained that it was starlings and also the sea-gulls that they encouraged by feeding them..also my birds are stock and would fly away if let out, the chap to the right said 'yeh but' you' not allowed to keep poultry, and pigeons are poultry. I had to get books to prove to him that pigeons are not poultry.

I let my birds out at dawn and late evening, the worse time is when the youngsters are learning to fly and may land on one of there houses for a minute or two.. What makes me laugh is that if a dove or woody lands no one notices, but if a racer lands you get a load of clapping, i asked one lady why she does that...she had no answer. Nowadays i have nothing to do with them

[Guest IB]

I remarked before that we did not have all the facts, and what we do have doesn't appear to add up. What we appear to have here is a Court ruling on a refusal to abide by a Planning Enforcement Order. The 'people' appear on the verge of going to prison if they don't obey the court, and move home.

 

I find it hard to believe that the family have not had legal advice / support during the 8 years the news stories say this has been going on, either from their own legal team or one provided by their pigeon Union. Who would risk their home without these all those years?

 

And what of the democratic process? Right of Appeal. The local Councillor. The MP. The Courts system?

 

So I think its a tad late asking for help / suggesting the offer of help. Realistically, what can be done at this late stage?

 

 

[cleaner]

england  is gone as we no it  the bloody councils are  so lost in there own red tape they dont no which is fair  anymore   ok so he may have broke one of there  rules  the bloody imercraints do it all the time   and they  shouts  humane rights       write to the queen mate she is surposed to be on our side