Ivermectin

[jimmy white]

quite simply if a hawk kills a strong or pure ivermectin treated bird   on the ist 2cnd  day the bird is treated , if a hawk,,,,[ poss one that had killed b4, an untreated bird , at your loft,,, and comes back]  then kills and eats a pigeon treated thus , the hawk will die,, as i said in my previous post i am being very carefull with what i post,

[just ask me]

ive said before i seen ivermectin being put onto dead chicks and given to the falcon with no ill effects how much are u talking about putting onto the pigeon  

[Larry Lucas]

Here is a relevant article:

 

The Veterinary Record, Vol 148, Issue 19, 596-600

Copyright © 2001 by British Veterinary Association

Evaluation of the dosage of ivermectin in falcons

 

M. Lierz MRCVS1

1 Abu Dhabi Falcon Research Hospital, PO Box 77, Abu Dhabi, United Arab Emirates

 

Twelve groups of falcons, each containing three female gyrfalcon-peregrine falcon hybrids (Falco rusticolus x Falco peregrinus) were injected intramuscularly with a single dose of ivermectin ranging from 0·2 mg/kg to 11 mg/kg bodyweight, and a control group was injected with water. Doses of ivermectin between 0·2 and 5 mg/kg failed to produce clinical signs of illness in the birds. Four birds which received either 6, 7 or 8 mg/kg showed slight clinical signs, and all the birds receiving 9 to 11 mg/kg showed more or less severe clinical signs of anorexia, apathy and sedation. Slight changes in the mean plasma activities of aspartate aminotransferase, alanine aminotransferase and alkaline phosphatase (AP) were detected in the group dosed with 5 mg/kg, and higher dosages caused marked changes in these enzymes as well as in the mean plasma activity of lactate dehydrogenase. The mean activity of AP decreased, and the activities of the other enzymes increased. A dosage of 2 to 3 mg/kg ivermectin is recommended as a safe and effective antiparasitic drug for falcons and it has been used successfully to treat infestations of Serratospiculum species.

 

Here is the source:

 

http://veterinaryrecord.bvapublications.com/cgi/content/abstract/148/19/596

 

Gentlemen, and ladies of course, as much as we might wish it so, Ivermectin is not fatal to hawks and is used to treat them for parasites. If phosphates in the pour-on variety were a fatal element for hawks it would show up in the literature in big bold print. The fact that there are NO WARNINGS available for those who work with raptors is decisive: Ivermectin is not fatal to raptors.

 

[just ask me]

Here is a relevant article:

 

 

 

Here is the source:

 

http://veterinaryrecord.bvapublications.com/cgi/content/abstract/148/19/596

 

Gentlemen, and ladies of course, as much as we might wish it so, Ivermectin is not fatal to hawks and is used to treat them for parasites. If phosphates in the pour-on variety were a fatal element for hawks it would show up in the literature in big bold print. The fact that there are NO WARNINGS available for those who work with raptors is decisive: Ivermectin is not fatal to raptors.

 

would it be true then Larry that it would be possible that we are actually doing the the falcons a favour but using this product if the pigeon was caught within a few days of treatment being given

[Guest]

Back in 2005, when these issues were first raised in BHW, I contacted Harkers. It was one of their Scientists that told BHW that ivermectin built up in hawks and eventually poisoned them.

 

Later, I viewed a video by the late Frank Harper, in which he said ivermectin doesn't remain all that long in the pigeon's bloodstream, so don't expect year-long protection from one dose.

 

Since this thread burst to life I have been aware that the body rids itself of antibiotics at a steady rate, called the residue depletion rate. So there's no long-term deposit in 'the meat'.

 

I put these FACTS to the same Scientist at Harkers by email last night. Here is his reply:-

 

Thank you for your enquiry regarding Harkamectin.

 

Since 2005 research has shown that the Ivermectin group of insecticides do not accumulate in the tissues of birds of prey. My letter to the SHU was based on knowledge at that time.I now stand corrected.

 

Residues of ivermectin in pigeons are totally depleted in 14 days from the day of treatment. Tissues used for the residue work were muscle,kidney, liver and both sub-cutaneous and peri-renal fat.

Ivermectin is detectable in serum in pigeons for a maximum of 3-4 days.

 

Our efficacy trial work with Harkamectin did not show any resistance in any worm species tested ( roundworm, tapeworm, hairworm )

 

Please give me a call on   ...... if you wish to discuss further.

 

Best Regards

J M Ballany

 

Dr Ballany is the same person whom I and SHU contacted in 2005. Serum is blood, so Frank Harper was right. 3 days and its over.

 

IB a fascinating article, and again perhaps explains why Ivo Mec has works for me. The first two years I was particularly badly hit in jan - Feb when I started letting my birds out for breeding losing one or two every day or two. I kept them in after losing probably 12/14 ech time for about a week and then Ivo Mecd at 3 drops per pigeon. I lost two the first day each time and then no more until after breeding. It certainly fits.

Definite scientific evidence that it doesn't work, me thinks not!

[Larry Lucas]

Here is another article that clearly demonstrates that Ivomec Pour-On is not fatal to hawks. Apparently the confusion about the matter has arisen from information about hawks dying from eating magpies that died from organophosphate insecticides (famphur) being confused with false reports of hawks dying from eating carrion containing Ivomec. Sorry everyone, this urban myth is busted. Neither Ivomec Pour-On nor any Ivermectin formulation is fatal to raptors -- in fact, it is beneficial to them.

 

http://www.fda.gov/cvm/FOI/141-079EA.pdf

[Larry Lucas]

 

would it be true then Larry that it would be possible that we are actually doing the the falcons a favour but using this product if the pigeon was caught within a few days of treatment being given

 

Quite right. We are effectively worming the hawks, making them even more healthy. :-/

 

 

[Larry Lucas]

I don't know if this discussion will make a difference to those who wish to believe they are eliminating raptors. But facts are facts. If hawks are leaving your birds alone after treatment with Ivomec, you must look to other reasons. Perhaps an owl has moved into the territory and is scaring the hawks away, etc. But treating your birds with Ivomec certainly won't hurt them and will keep them free of parasites if not free of hawks. :X

[Guest]

I don't know if this discussion will make a difference to those who wish to believe they are eliminating raptors. But facts are facts. If hawks are leaving your birds alone after treatment with Ivomec, you must look to other reasons. Perhaps an owl has moved into the territory and is scaring the hawks away, etc. But treating your birds with Ivomec certainly won't hurt them and will keep them free of parasites if not free of hawks. :X

 

Larry that's about as scientific as There is a God

[Larry Lucas]

 

Larry that's about as factual as There is a God

 

I would venture to say there is far more evidence for the existence of God than for Ivomec killing hawks. The environmental impact study by the FDA I posted above will provide those facts for you. Those who believe Ivomec is helping with the hawk problem are fooling themselves. Sorry, I sincerely wish the opposite were true as my new home is in the middle of raptor heaven. The Swedish Goshawk trap is still the best answer for the cautious fancier.

[Larry Lucas]

Here is a solution that is not based on urban legend. Be sure to check with your local laws on permissability. I know a man who used one of these as the aviary on his breeder loft!

 

http://raptorsnest.com/GosTrap/index.htm

[Guest]

 

I would venture to say there is far more evidence for the existence of God than for Ivomec killing hawks. The environmental impact study by the FDA I posted above will provide those facts for you. Those who believe Ivomec is helping with the hawk problem are fooling themselves. Sorry, I sincerely wish the opposite were true as my new home is in the middle of raptor heaven. The Swedish Goshawk trap is still the best answer for the cautious fancier.

 

;D ;D ;D ;D Larry you are obviously of the scientoligy brigade

[Larry Lucas]

 

;D ;D ;D ;D Larry you are obviously of the scientoligy brigade

 

Scientology? As in Tom Cruise Scientology? God forbid!!!

 

Science and faith go together nicely; scientism (faith in science alone) does not place nicely with anyone. ;D

[Roland]

Well I'm baffled as to whay the lice, ticks etc. carry on dying all season if the Invetomec is gone after a fornight. Might look like a cabbage... but green I'm not.

[Guest]

 

Scientology? As in Tom Cruise Scientology? God forbid!!!

 

Science and faith go together nicely; scientism (faith in science alone) does not place nicely with anyone. ;D

 

Larry politics and religion need banning, and in my opinion obviously not yours,to combine science and faith is hypocricy, I have no faith in your opinion. This is contentious and obviously you will reply and of course I respect your right to reply but as someone pm me recently to tell me it was their last word on the matter. This shall be mine.

[Larry Lucas]

 

Larry politics and religion need banning, and in my opinion obviously not yours,to combine science and faith is hypocricy, I have no faith in your opinion. This is contentious and obviously you will reply and of course I respect your right to reply but as someone pm me recently to tell me it was their last word on the matter. This shall be mine.

 

Alan, I must have missed something in the translation as all the above appears to be merely good discussion. Any "contention" is unintentional on my part. What am I missing here? If you viewed my remarks as personal, be assured they are not.

[Larry Lucas]

Well I'm baffled as to whay the lice, ticks etc. carry on dying all season if the Invetomec is gone after a fornight. Might look like a cabbage... but green I'm not.

 

Roland, you are right. While the chemical is gone from the pigeon after a few days, the GABBA effect lingers on for quite a long time, affecting the neurotransmitters of the parasites and killing them -- including mites and pigeon flies. It is not the "poison" that does them in, but the disruption of their neurotransmitters. If we could make a beer with the same effect we could make a fortune. ;D

[Larry Lucas]

 

Scientology? As in Tom Cruise Scientology? God forbid!!!

 

Science and faith go together nicely; scientism (faith in science alone) does not place nicely with anyone. ;D

 

That should read: " . . . does not play nicely . . . "

 

 

[just ask me]

 

Roland, you are right. While the chemical is gone from the pigeon after a few days, the GABBA effect lingers on for quite a long time, affecting the neurotransmitters of the parasites and killing them -- including mites and pigeon flies. It is not the "poison" that does them in, but the disruption of their neurotransmitters. If we could make a beer with the same effect we could make a fortune. ;D[/quote

 

may iask what is the GABBA effect and  what are neurotransmitters   just a bit lost on this one  

[Guest IB]

may iask what is the GABBA effect and  what are neurotransmitters   just a bit lost on this one  

 

Not surprised   we are into the realms of biochemistry now, particularly on how ivermectin attacks the parasite, be it mite. worm or fly, does the same job on all of them.

 

Ivermectin is a neurotoxin, it works by disrupting the animal's nervous system, stopping chemical and electrical signals being transmitted across junctions (synapse) between nerves. gabba is an ion channel, part of the synapse? and ivermectin targets it.

 

A neurotransmitter is just as it sounds, a transmitter that can be chemical or electrical, capable of sending signals, or travelling along the body's nerve pathways.

 

 

[Guest IB]

 

IB a fascinating article, and again perhaps explains why Ivo Mec has works for me. The first two years I was particularly badly hit in jan - Feb when I started letting my birds out for breeding losing one or two every day or two. I kept them in after losing probably 12/14 ech time for about a week and then Ivo Mecd at 3 drops per pigeon. I lost two the first day each time and then no more until after breeding. It certainly fits.

Definite scientific evidence that it doesn't work, me thinks not!

 

I'm not sure what your last sentence is aimed at, the research extracts posted, or your own experience?

 

If you are saying your own experience is a scientific investigation, I think you will need to investigate again.  

 

From the scant information given, two common factors stand out (1) keeping the birds in all winter only to suffer attacks in the first weeks of free-flying and (2) putting free-flying birds out day after day in the face of repeated attacks

 

A clubmate of mine used to lock his birds up all winter until he came to the conclusion that his losses around the loft - He lost Fed-toppers - when the birds were again allowed to fly out were down to the birds being unfit - thro winter confinement. I followed his example for one year only - and lost a cock and a hen of two pairs. Never again, my birds get out at weekends, weather permitting.

 

Advice on this forum has always been that when you are attacked you keep the birds in, otherwise you set up a pattern. You waietd too long, and when you did hold them in again, you broke the pattern, the raptor (s) went elsewhere.

 

 

 

[just ask me]

 

I'm not sure what your last sentence is aimed at, the research extracts posted, or your own experience?

 

If you are saying your own experience is a scientific investigation, I think you will need to investigate again.  

 

From the scant information given, two common factors stand out (1) keeping the birds in all winter only to suffer attacks in the first weeks of free-flying and (2) putting free-flying birds out day after day in the face of repeated attacks

 

A clubmate of mine used to lock his birds up all winter until he came to the conclusion that his losses around the loft - He lost Fed-toppers - when the birds were again allowed to fly out were down to the birds being unfit - thro winter confinement. I followed his example for one year only - and lost a cock and a hen of two pairs. Never again, my birds get out at weekends, weather permitting.

 

Advice on this forum has always been that when you are attacked you keep the birds in, otherwise you set up a pattern. You waietd too long, and when you did hold them in again, you broke the pattern, the raptor (s) went elsewhere.

 

 

 

u ever think albear that someone else might be using the proper stuff  and got these birds and if u want seen proof i seen  a bird man putting this product on dead chicks and giving them to falcons  ans when i said don't give that to the falcons he asked why i said pigeon men are using that on there birds for certain reasons and he fell around the yard laughing and said my falcons must be special and any mans birds ive done as ive been doing this for years   what more proof do u need

 

belive it or not we all can be wrong and all scientific evidence and from what Ive seen with my own eyes tells us all that this does no harm to falcons

[just ask me]

last post was a replyto albear post not ib sorry

[Roland]

Roland, you are right. While the chemical is gone from the pigeon after a few days, the GABBA effect lingers on for quite a long time, affecting the neurotransmitters of the parasites and killing them -- including mites and pigeon flies. It is not the "poison" that does them in, but the disruption of their neurotransmitters.

 

Well in that case it is well worth using - as I harp on - for that alone, and any extra, real or imaginary, would also be a bonus.

Golly if it kills Collie dogs, and the likes, then once dead they can't become immuned!

[Guest IB]

Roland, you are right. While the chemical is gone from the pigeon after a few days, the GABBA effect lingers on for quite a long time, affecting the neurotransmitters of the parasites and killing them -- including mites and pigeon flies. It is not the "poison" that does them in, but the disruption of their neurotransmitters.

 

Well in that case it is well worth using - as I harp on - for that alone, and any extra, real or imaginary, would also be a bonus.

Golly if it kills Collie dogs, and the likes, then once dead they can't become immuned!

 

The species of animals that ivermectin kills is listed, and as Larry has already pointed out, hawks nor any other bird species is included in that list.

 

As to immunity: there has been another well known neurotoxic insecticide in use in pigeons for half a century - duramitex - now withdrawn. If you read the label for that, you will see that the target insects - red mite - became largely immune to it over time. I would guess that overuse / misuse of ivermectin will lead to much the same thing - immunity in the target insect & worm species.