Setting the reality straight.

[willow]

Morning , is there not an MP that keeps birds ? my opinion is that you will have to get someone onboard who can influence the public as well as the rspb .Then the fanciers can get petitions from themselves and the public .A little knowledge is better then none ,try and get the media to interview and document what is happening .You have to get yourselves more invloved as a sport rather than a hobby .If it was a reconised Sport then you would have a better chance of changing peoples opinions . The publics opinions on pigeons are that they are a nucense , dirty and not worth saving . When infact they are international athletics . The balls in your court to get something done to making it a reconised Sport then you will get something positive done .Willow

[pjc]

 

I agree with you, but I doubt that it would be enough. There was advice published in the BHW letter's page this year, well buried amongst dubious statistics, that we should (also?) change our breeding & racing seasons to fall outside the bop breeding seasons. I think it the height of stupidity to have 100 youngsters, and flying about in dead of winter when meat is scarce for everything, including sparrowhawk. We also start racing in April when the weather is unsuitable, never mind the peregrines. The writers said this alone would reduce the numbers. So either, or, or both will have an impact.

 

Winter racing would be possible, we get as good weather Oct to April as we get through  the summer. BOP's will still kill to feed and survive but won't be killing to feed young or killing for fun when teaching the young to kill!

Breeding could take place during the best months rather than breeding in the cold and the birds would be in full feather.

[Guest]

 

Albear, my sincere apologies, no malice or negative vibes intended. Sent you a pm.

 

Morning Bob and mine to you, I was not trying to say what you were saying was wrong because if everyone did it, it would help no doubt. I thought the thread was Roland clarifying position on his group and there other threads for ideas. So I apologise if it seems I was trying to tell you what to do.

[Guest Owen]

Looking at the recent contributions to this subject has given me reason to think we can do what is necessary to protect our pigeons and the sport.

There are a awful lot of very good ideas coming forward now. I am not sure how to go on to the next stage but somehow we have to form an acceptable agreement amongst ourselves and try to get the majority to come along with us.

My suggestion is that we ought to now encourage people to make their views known on how we can form a working agreement, so that we are seen to be doing something positive.

I have ideas but I will resist making them public for now, because I know I am one of the more militant in my views. What ever we do now we must cater for the more moderate minded people amongst us. Otherwise we could overreach ourselves and fail to do anything at all. Come on Folks, let's go.  

[just ask me]

 

I agree with you, but I doubt that it would be enough. There was advice published in the BHW letter's page this year, well buried amongst dubious statistics, that we should (also?) change our breeding & racing seasons to fall outside the bop breeding seasons. I think it the height of stupidity to have 100 youngsters, and flying about in dead of winter when meat is scarce for everything, including sparrowhawk. We also start racing in April when the weather is unsuitable, never mind the peregrines. The writers said this alone would reduce the numbers. So either, or, or both will have an impact.

 

have said this one  number of times before never as well worded as this though

 

this is one that could be done easily enough and i think would have an impact

 

 

 

[johno]

we seem to be covering the same ground over and over again. the problem has been analysed and pulled to bits many times. around 2002 the whu and then the shu paid a Dr. Andrew Dixon and his team to study the problem and put proposals forward that may be helpful to pigeon racers. the total cash output was in the region of £80,000. the study showed a number of facts. at that time cumbria and the lake district was home to the highest density population of perigrin falcons in europe. it was suggested that in order to have a visible effect on the perigrin population pigeon fanciers should consider: not racing during the last two weeks in may and the first week in june. this would immediately cut the breeding success rate of the perigrin due to lack of food to rear young. pigeon fanciers should o all in their power to avoid racing through this area. Dr. Dixon held a seminar at the bhw show at that time. in attendance were around 10 fanciers. some scottish feds continued the following year racing down the hotspots.  the shu who had laid out over £50,000 on the study said nothing.what chance have we got.

[Guest]

Looking at the recent contributions to this subject has given me reason to think we can do what is necessary to protect our pigeons and the sport.

There are a awful lot of very good ideas coming forward now. I am not sure how to go on to the next stage but somehow we have to form an acceptable agreement amongst ourselves and try to get the majority to come along with us.

My suggestion is that we ought to now encourage people to make their views known on how we can form a working agreement, so that we are seen to be doing something positive.

I have ideas but I will resist making them public for now, because I know I am one of the more militant in my views. What ever we do now we must cater for the more moderate minded people amongst us. Otherwise we could overreach ourselves and fail to do anything at all. Come on Folks, let's go.  

 

Have to agree to carry all is the aim but very diificult, as I've said before when the miners were on strike in 74, Gormley used to say we're going to negotiate we're going to negotiate, scargill however was openly attacking the Government. Result in 74 my wage doubled, Scargills result the pits shut. No different in their approach behind the scenes except Gormley did everything to gain public opinion, Scargill couldn't have done more to allienate it. That's why people who can stay calm are needed to head this and that's what Roland is doing, well done mate!

[Guest]

 

I agree with you, but I doubt that it would be enough. There was advice published in the BHW letter's page this year, well buried amongst dubious statistics, that we should (also?) change our breeding & racing seasons to fall outside the bop breeding seasons. I think it the height of stupidity to have 100 youngsters, and flying about in dead of winter when meat is scarce for everything, including sparrowhawk. We also start racing in April when the weather is unsuitable, never mind the peregrines. The writers said this alone would reduce the numbers. So either, or, or both will have an impact.

 

Ian makes a lot of sense. I mated this year first week in March so I wouldn't have young going out until May and as you know I keep them in from September to April. It means my birds first trace is 123 mile and they've only been going out of the loft for 2 weeks, I suffered heavy losses with my yearlings this year, cause I didn't race them as YB either, but my birds if they get through 123 miles have then got a chance! I would like the seasion to move to a Mid may start and YB racing finish by mid september. I think organisations should also look to where they liberate from, when they come down here for example they are feeding percy!

[pjc]

 

Ian makes a lot of sense. I mated this year first week in March so I wouldn't have young going out until May and as you know I keep them in from September to April. It means my birds first trace is 123 mile and they've only been going out of the loft for 2 weeks, I suffered heavy losses with my yearlings this year, cause I didn't race them as YB either, but my birds if they get through 123 miles have then got a chance! I would like the seasion to move to a Mid may start and YB racing finish by mid september. I think organisations should also look to where they liberate from, when they come down here for example they are feeding percy!

 

So whats the point of breeding them, shutting them up from Sept to April still having to feed them etc to end up losing most of them as yearlings?

Surely better to train, educate and race them as youngbirds so only keeping experienced birds over the winter which in turn would reduce loses in the spring!

 

 

 

[Guest]

 

So whats the point of breeding them, shutting them up from Sept to April still having to feed them etc to end up losing most of them as yearlings?

Surely better to train, educate and race them as youngbirds so only keeping experienced birds over the winter which in turn would reduce loses in the spring!

 

 

 

Maybe you're right Phil. By the way I'd like a reply to the pm thread you started with me, would like to know whether you were misinformed or not, don't like being attacked by pm and then you not having the balls to answer

[pjc]

tried bot you box is full, and who was calling who a liar?

[Guest dogeon]

IMO this playground arguing, petty leadership, and backstabbing will get fanciers no where except DIVIDED

it is no wounder that the RSPB have more support as they are UNITED

IT SHOULD BE UNITED WE STAND AND AND DIVIDED THEY FALL

they may have an estimte 20,000 BOP to protect but if you add up each fanciers pigeons then we have more to protect

[Guest]

A group from Swansea are putting the issue before the Welsh office, maybe we will get somewhere with that.   As for reports commissioned by the WHU and SHU, where are the publishings?

[johno]

the published reports are with the shu and the whu. the saturday seminar to discuss the findings at bhw blackpol show around 2002 attracted around 8 of the estimated 25,000 pigeon fanciers in attendance. i was one of the eight. one scottish fed in particular is still stubbornly attempting to race the identified routes. the shu back the fed completely by saying nothing. as to attempting to take on the rspb in a publicity debate. they have experts and spin doctors lined up to batter down any debate the pigeon fancy put up. the first thing they will request is factual evidence. evidence with a logical stattistical scientic methodology behind it. do we have it?

[Guest]

the published reports are with the shu and the whu. the saturday seminar to discuss the findings at bhw blackpol show around 2002 attracted around 8 of the estimated 25,000 pigeon fanciers in attendance. i was one of the eight. one scottish fed in particular is still stubbornly attempting to race the identified routes. the shu back the fed completely by saying nothing. as to attempting to take on the rspb in a publicity debate. they have experts and spin doctors lined up to batter down any debate the pigeon fancy put up. the first thing they will request is factual evidence. evidence with a logical stattistical scientic methodology behind it. do we have it?

Why have the reports not been made public or have they and if so where can you get a copy of this?  

 

 

[Turk]

Lancaster University has won a contract from pigeon fanciers to look into the killing of racing pigeons by Sparrowhawks and Peregrines. Such predation is a nationwide problem for pigeon fanciers, who regularly have their prized pigeons taken from around, and in some cases, from within, their lofts.

Peregrines are predominant in Scotland, Cumbria, Wales, Devon and Cornwall, where their numbers have increased significantly since the last census in 1991.

 

Pigeon Fanciers have announced a £32,000 contract to Dr Ian Hartley, from the Department of Biological Sciences at Lancaster University, to conduct trials of legal deterrents around pigeon lofts to deter sparrowhawks and peregrines.

 

The Government's Raptor Working Group Final Report in February 2000 made several recommendations for parties who were disadvantaged by the influence of birds of prey on their livelihoods and leisure. Despite the reservations held by the Confederation of Long Distance Racing Pigeon Unions of the Great Britain and Ireland as to the utility of the conclusions regarding peregrines, four recommendations were made to pigeon fanciers to help overcome the disastrous effect peregrines and sparrowhawks have on their lofts. This project will investigate two of these factors; deterrents such as balloons and sonic devices at lofts, and deterrents which are attached to the pigeons themselves, such as bells, small shining discs or bright coloured transfers which add markings to pigeons' wings.

 

Trials will commence in March, in South Wales. Dr Ian Hartley said "The research in the field will be carried out by Dr Andrew Dixon and we are pleased that the Royal Pigeon Racing Association has chosen to give us the contract to carry out this project. We will independently establish whether the deterrents suggested by the Raptor Working Group are effective in reducing the risk of pigeons being taken by birds of prey. Pigeons will be fitted with small devices such as reflective discs or wing transfers which look like large eyes from the point of view of an attacking falcon. The idea is that the attacking bird of prey will be put off by the glinting of light on the disks or the appearance of large, frightening eyes on its prey. The same sort of defence systems have evolved naturally in many insects (for example Peacock butterflies), so they may well work for pigeons too. Attacking birds of prey are suddenly faced with the 'eyes' of a bird much larger than themselves and they should be put off the attack

for at least long enough for the pigeons to make their escape."

 

Peter Bryant, Secretary to the Confederation, said "Pigeon Fanciers are pleased that this research is being undertaken. It will show the Government and the protectionists that we are really concerned about the slaughter of our pigeons by these birds of prey and that we are prepared to do something tangible about the problem. It may also be of assistance to those organisations that are concerned about the numbers of songbirds taken by sparrowhawks."

[Guest]

the published reports are with the shu and the whu. the saturday seminar to discuss the findings at bhw blackpol show around 2002 attracted around 8 of the estimated 25,000 pigeon fanciers in attendance. i was one of the eight. one scottish fed in particular is still stubbornly attempting to race the identified routes. the shu back the fed completely by saying nothing. as to attempting to take on the rspb in a publicity debate. they have experts and spin doctors lined up to batter down any debate the pigeon fancy put up. the first thing they will request is factual evidence. evidence with a logical stattistical scientic methodology behind it. do we have it?

 

Are the facts, figures and statistics presented, not the property of the RSPB? If so, are they not open to manipulation :-/ to suit their own profiteering and spin doctoring. Why, therefore should we accept their facts, and them not accept the figures that we present. For a true insight into the problem, a completely unbiased, and totally independent survey should be conducted. Just my thoughts

[johno]

the reports have been made public. the seminar in blackpool was open to all. shu and / or whu have the reports in their offices. the fancy were well aware of the reports at the time. the findings and report were published in bhw and should still be their archives.

[johno]

the report was commissioned by and is the rpoperty of the pigeon fancier they paid for it and structured the terms and conditions used in the guidelines.

[Turk]

Why have the reports not been made public or have they and if so where can you get a copy of this?  

 

 

 

 

click the link you can buy one

linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S0006320701002178

[Roland]

One of the best recommendations was a joint effeort arrived at by the RSPCA and the RSPB. They say simple that to use Goose Fat with a mixtue of salt rubbed well in the Neck, back and even breast. Goose fat is easily bought and obviously works.

However common lard has the same affect. Doesn't hinder or hurt the bird of course.

This detterent is, and has been proven time after time to be very effective.

[Guest]

 

 

 

click the link you can buy one

linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S0006320701002178

You have to pay to get it?

 

 

[Guest]

tried bot you box is full, and who was calling who a liar?

 

Not full now lovely boy, called you a liar? happy to post all your pms and my replies for people to see the approach from you and me. Asto calling you a liar, the link below gives the thread that pjc refers to, you can see what I wrote.He left it sometime to contact me and then thought it had been deleted well it hadn't and the proof is there in black and white. This detracts from this very good thread and I apologise. I'll open a new thread about this if I need to.

The link is

http://forum.pigeonbasics.com/m-1250076891/

[Roland]

So as most don't care to, or wish to do what the RSPB / RSPCA state is a proven deterrent, one must take other roads and avenues in regards our plight.

RSPB too big and connected and will roll right over us. Maybe :-/ maybe not. Who won when David fought Goliath? The fellow from the council flat that took on abe beat McDonalds - albeit a few years etc. etc.

Lets put straight on thing that a post stated RSPB have £21 million a year coming that £21.000.000 for emphasise. It's not. it is £100 million, that’s £100.000.000 for emphasise and another annual average of £21 million on average bequeathed.

That doesn't make them above he law. That doesn't make them right.... granted they can grease a few palms and tickle a few ears....

However when a sensible and presentable body puts forth this to the general public, an explains just why they are donating this colossal sum to destroy the very thing that donate to protect I.e their garden birds, their countryside etc. etc. one will see that many will not tolerate this.

I don't - personally - wish to follow others concerns, bodies down well-trodden paths leading to a brick wall.

Further a poster stated that £30,000 - £45,000 for a P.R. Firm to act on our behalf and in our interests.

This is in correct. The scale starts from 'Up to a £1000, and then around £15000 per annum to actually do every thing we feel is needed and should be done.

There is so much more the P.O.B are devising and working on. But like the 'Hare and Tortoise' this will take time, effort and common sense with intelligent and worthwhile input from many different fields and slants and views. Then making the right, and all important decisions and following them through.

[Guest bigda]

yes  rolland but i  still think bobs idea is a better bet,  as  the impact will be immediate, and will not cost £15,000 as the members will only be paying union fees for the two years, and  for the cause might have them reduced, and for the members that don't like the idea of been told not to fly there birds it will be simple, if you don't conform to democracy, don't expect to race birds in the clubs who are prepared to  sacrifice 2 year  restrictions, this would not be  a problem if made compulsive by any  defra acting body, so i don't see it being a problem with the 4 unions just rules and regulations thats all