OLDYELLOW Posted August 31, 2009 Report Posted August 31, 2009 Lets assume we base the figures on young birds per annum alone. 99,999 rings per letter of the alphabet = 2,599,974 young birds bred per annum. Average percentage of youngsters remaining in the loft per season (roughly 33%) therefore 1,715,982 youngster do not survive their first season. If my other calculations are a fair representation (see post above) of birds taken by BOP, (500,000 divided by 1,715,982) then this represents 29% of the total annual losses of young birds. If we then bring annual old bird losses into the equation, (therefore divide by 2) that's an average of 15% of Total annual losses that can be attributed to BOP. These are only guide figures, but if we can only base our sums on figures available to us from RSPB and Homing Unions, at has to be assumed these are a fair representation Thats just the R.P.R.A , then theres the nehu , shu , nwhu , then the fancy rings on top of that
Guest bigda Posted August 31, 2009 Report Posted August 31, 2009 these are the rspbs own figures hen harriers 1,600 white tailed eagle 850 red kite 2,400 perigrines 3,000 goshawk 1,000 merlin 2,660 sparowhawk 80,000 = kestrel 70,000 and just to add why did these birds not suffer dtt ----------------- --161,510----------------- x4 646,040 birds eaten per day you do the maths for 360days and that is not counting magpies hearring nests or crows the goshawk and perigrine alone will eat 16,000 pigeons a day and thats a fact, so just leave bill to do the talking as he is more on the ball if the hawks had a bad day and only cought one bird on race day 160,000 birds missing in the uk on race days
Guest Posted August 31, 2009 Report Posted August 31, 2009 Thats just the R.P.R.A , then theres the nehu , shu , nwhu , then the fancy rings on top of that So in your opinion Mark would that make the figures better or worse as regard the percentage of losses to BOP. My figures are roughly based on ALL RPRA rings being sold, but even if they were not it still amounts to a percentage that is far too high in my opinion.
Guest JPH Posted August 31, 2009 Report Posted August 31, 2009 So in your opinion Mark would that make the figures better or worse as regard the percentage of losses to BOP. My figures are roughly based on ALL RPRA rings being sold, but even if they were not it still amounts to a percentage that is far too high in my opinion.obviously worse Bob your not the only one who gets B O P. personnaly over the winter last year i had 47 birds go missing most to sparrowhawks. Get the tell tale evidence of lots of feathers and find the carcasses under the bushes in the woods etc. Scotland and wales about the worst affected and have had problems for over 25 years :B :B
Guest Posted August 31, 2009 Report Posted August 31, 2009 I would be more inclined to agree with Mr Bills where he states "pigeons and songbirds". Bearing in mind the figures usually trotted out by the BTO,RSPB etc are at best usually at least 10 years old, and usually older than that. Also take in to account these figures are usually breeding pairs so you can at least double the amount of raptors nesting. Then add in the young and immature birds and suddenly 297,000 may not be that far fetched.Your entitled to agree with who you wish as am I, although I still maintain Mr. Bills figure is about as tangible as there being such a thing as hens teeth. My view is, and probably supported by science is every BOP eating 54 birds a day, every single day of the year would be all but a physical impossibility based on fact not a ficticious number plucked out from thin air. I've also taken into account the pairs not single birds but only from inflating what I believe to be misleading figures on the RPSB website. I read somewhere that there were less than 3000 birds of prey species in the UK taking into account all species, can't remember where or who but I took that figure and almost doubled it to show how ridiculous the figure of 297,000 birds a day is. If I'm wrong and the next study shows 100,000 BOP which would be roughly the figure needed to rationalize the figure given by Mr. Bills I'll be the first to support him but stick by my guns that the problem is very real, but over-inflating the problem to a ludicrous level does us little or no favour. We need to get facts presented to government not fiction and until then we're always going to be known as cloth caps and clogs as was put in the article.
Guest Posted August 31, 2009 Report Posted August 31, 2009 these are the rspbs own figures hen harriers 1,600 white tailed eagle 850 red kite 2,400 perigrines 3,000 goshawk 1,000 merlin 2,660 sparowhawk 80,000 = kestrel 70,000 and just to add why did these birds not suffer dtt ----------------- --161,510----------------- x4 646,040 birds eaten per day you do the maths for 360days and that is not counting magpies hearring nests or crows the goshawk and perigrine alone will eat 16,000 pigeons a day and thats a fact, so just leave bill to do the talking as he is more on the ball Do you have a link to these statistics and do all these species eat pigeons? I just came from thier website and they don't seem to tally with yours? :-/
Guest Owen Posted August 31, 2009 Report Posted August 31, 2009 Well folks we are starting to get some action. And yes I agree that it is a bit like a baby learning to walk. Not very positive. So, as we are the heart and soul of the Sport, we will have to do what all good parents do. We must help and suport all we can. Mr Bills, if you are reading this, I would like to say thankyou for starting on what could be a long and difficult road. We Pigeon Fanciers have been frustrated and igored for so long now that we have become impatient. I hope you can forgive us. The majority of us have had to stand by, helpless, as our birds are taken off by the BOP. This is not something anybody can take without feeling a huge surge of emotion, followed by a feeling of frustration and worse still helplessness. I know a lot of Pigeon Fanciers are like me in that they can not watch their birds at exercise or enjoy the sight of their birds leaving the liberation site when they train them. They can not watch because of the possibility of a hawk or peregrine strike. It is like living a nightmare. As a suggestion. You can exploit the RSPB data quire easily. They are in the habit of recording the activities at the nesting sites of peregrine falcons. And that means that the prey species brought to the nest can be counted and is therefore beyond challenge. I seriously hope that we can all get behind this first tentitive attempt at challenging the RSPB. And now would be the time to put pressure on our representitives on the various bodies that have done so little in the past.
Guest Posted August 31, 2009 Report Posted August 31, 2009 Well folks we are starting to get some action. And yes I agree that it is a bit like a baby learning to walk. Not very positive. So, as we are the heart and soul of the Sport, we will have to do what all good parents do. We must help and suport all we can. Mr Bills, if you are reading this, I would like to say thankyou for starting on what could be a long and difficult road. We Pigeon Fanciers have been frustrated and igored for so long now that we have become impatient. I hope you can forgive us. The majority of us have had to stand by, helpless, as our birds are taken off by the BOP. This is not something anybody can take without feeling a huge surge of emotion, followed by a feeling of frustration and worse still helplessness. I know a lot of Pigeon Fanciers are like me in that they can not watch their birds at exercise or enjoy the sight of their birds leaving the liberation site when they train them. They can not watch because of the possibility of a hawk or peregrine strike. It is like living a nightmare. As a suggestion. You can exploit the RSPB data quire easily. They are in the habit of recording the activities at the nesting sites of peregrine falcons. And that means that the prey species brought to the nest can be counted and is therefore beyond challenge. I seriously hope that we can all get behind this first tentitive attempt at challenging the RSPB. And now would be the time to put pressure on our representitives on the various bodies that have done so little in the past. Good post Owen, any move is a good move, and just because I disagree with the numbers pushed about doesn't mean I don't support anyone who does something about it. Prompted by Danny Haye's post on the figures of raptors I looked at the RSPB website and saw the numbers there could in theory make a logical answer to the small birds but the main concern for us as pigeon fanciers are the smaller minority of raptors that seem to have the pigeon on the main menu and its that which the RSPB seem to be defending righlty or wrongly. I'm no expert on what birds eat what, I've only ever known Percy to attack mine and others. What other species take pigeons out as a daily diet? Does anyone know? Danny, no need to get the stats, I found them after but thanks for providing them in the first place.
Guest JPH Posted August 31, 2009 Report Posted August 31, 2009 Good post Owen, any move is a good move, and just because I disagree with the numbers pushed about doesn't mean I don't support anyone who does something about it. Prompted by Danny Haye's post on the figures of raptors I looked at the RSPB website and saw the numbers there could in theory make a logical answer to the small birds but the main concern for us as pigeon fanciers are the smaller minority of raptors that seem to have the pigeon on the main menu and its that which the RSPB seem to be defending righlty or wrongly. I'm no expert on what birds eat what, I've only ever known Percy to attack mine and others. What other species take pigeons out as a daily diet? Does anyone know? Danny, no need to get the stats, I found them after but thanks for providing them in the first place. Well m8 sparrowhawks are a total menace now. over the last 15 years i have had 30 odd birds killed a season with them. Last year a bit higher. Some times they are killing 2 of my birds per day, Its almost got to the waste of time stage now and thats only with sparrowhawk hens. :-/ :-/
Guest Posted August 31, 2009 Report Posted August 31, 2009 Well m8 sparrowhawks are a total menace now. over the last 15 years i have had 30 odd birds killed a season with them. Last year a bit higher. Some times they are killing 2 of my birds per day, Its almost got to the waste of time stage now and thats only with sparrowhawk hens. :-/ :-/ Sorry to hear that, all the focus has been on one or two species which perhaps has clouded the issue, if the sparrowhawk is big enough to kill and eat pigeons as part of its staple diet with over 80000 known in the UK we really are in trouble. ??)
Fair Play Posted August 31, 2009 Report Posted August 31, 2009 Watched a programme last weekend about the re-introduction of of the red kite stated the streets of London were full of them but was when the street were literally full of Sh+te a breeding programme was set up with the usual secrecy they now boast 1000 breeding pairs and that was in Scotland.We all know that the BOP breeding programme has led to birds being located in town centres and a pair of Peregrines at Stirling Castle. Multiply that length and breadth of the country and you will come up with some surprising figures
Guest JPH Posted August 31, 2009 Report Posted August 31, 2009 Sorry to hear that, all the focus has been on one or two species which perhaps has clouded the issue, if the sparrowhawk is big enough to kill and eat pigeons as part of its staple diet with over 80000 known in the UK we really are in trouble. ??) I had a freind visit who didnt beleive sparrowhawk took pigeons. I let my birds out while he was there and a sparrowhawk hen came out of the woods at the back of my loft and nearly hit him in the face and grabed a birds that was flying out of thesputnick and pulled it down right in front of him and started to pluck strait away. We got it of the bird but we had to put the bird down as it had punctured its eye. He was tottaly shocked but i get this every day apart from end april until end of july when they breed. There has been a sparrowhawk hen flapping up and down my pigeons aviary everyday for the last week . needless to say i have not let my birds out :-/ :-/ :-/ :B :B
billt Posted August 31, 2009 Report Posted August 31, 2009 Totally agree with JPH, living in West Wales I see all the BOP's, the female srarrow hawk is by far the greatest killer of pigeons
Guest JPH Posted August 31, 2009 Report Posted August 31, 2009 Totally agree with JPH, living in West Wales I see all the BOP's, the female srarrow hawk is by far the greatest killer of pigeonsAround home it is the worst killer but we also get the peregrine one they fly out a bit and at training :B :B
Mr Yorkie Posted August 31, 2009 Report Posted August 31, 2009 Sparrowhawks are the big problem in North Yorkshire.
billt Posted August 31, 2009 Report Posted August 31, 2009 Out of that list of BOP's quoted on previous message, only peregrine, goshawk and female sparrowhawk are able to catch pigeons
Guest JPH Posted August 31, 2009 Report Posted August 31, 2009 Out of that list of BOP's quoted on previous message, only peregrine, goshawk and female sparrowhawk are able to catch pigeonsyes you are correct although have seen the odd hen harrier get a pigeon but very rare.
just ask me Posted August 31, 2009 Report Posted August 31, 2009 as stated by jph when a hen sparrow hawk pick out a loft it worse than having a percy about as the cock sparrowhawk in most cases takes mostly finches small birds she starving when she comes off the young ones as far as i know she moults too while siting the eggs and only been fed small birds also she has is main provider for her chicks as i said the cock only catches small birds
Guest JPH Posted August 31, 2009 Report Posted August 31, 2009 as stated by jph when a hen sparrow hawk pick out a loft it worse than having a percy about as the cock sparrowhawk in most cases takes mostly finches small birds she starving when she comes off the young ones as far as i know she moults too while siting the eggs and only been fed small birds also she has is main provider for her chicks as i said the cock only catches small birds The cock never gives any problems just the odd fright when it flashes past the pigeons. he is not much bigger than a blackbird at best but some of the hens nowadays are enormous getting and very fearless squaring up to you when you try to get your pigeon of them :-/ :o
just ask me Posted August 31, 2009 Report Posted August 31, 2009 The cock never gives any problems just the odd fright when it flashes past the pigeons. he is not much bigger than a blackbird at best but some of the hens nowadays are enormous getting and very fearless squaring up to you when you try to get your pigeon of them :-/ :o i know mate had a similar situation to yourself a few years back feel sorry for u really do
billt Posted August 31, 2009 Report Posted August 31, 2009 Yeh thats right, couldn't believe merlins and kestrels got a mention, as for white tailed sea eagles, more rare than rocking-horse s--t
Mr Yorkie Posted August 31, 2009 Report Posted August 31, 2009 Both cocks and hens cause problems for us....
Guest bigda Posted August 31, 2009 Report Posted August 31, 2009 Do you have a link to these statistics and do all these species eat pigeons? I just came from thier website and they don't seem to tally with yours? :-/ yes they all eat birds as the birds cant bite them is 4.000 perigrine and goshawk not enough at 4 birds a day 16,000 racining pigeons at least www.rspb.org.uk/supporting/campaigns/birdsofprey/ - Cached - Similar
Bluedoo Posted August 31, 2009 Report Posted August 31, 2009 Sorry to hear that, all the focus has been on one or two species which perhaps has clouded the issue, if the sparrowhawk is big enough to kill and eat pigeons as part of its staple diet with over 80000 known in the UK we really are in trouble. ??) "IF the sparrowhawk is big enough to kill and eat pigeons" IF.........do you actually keep pigeons? If so where?
billt Posted August 31, 2009 Report Posted August 31, 2009 yes they all eat birds as the birds cant bite them is 4.000 perigrine and goshawk not enough at 4 birds a day 16,000 racining pigeons at least www.rspb.org.uk/supporting/campaigns/birdsofprey/ - Cached - Similar There's no way a bird could eat 4 pigeons a day, it wouldn't be able to fly, feeding young only lasts a short while they dont kill for fun too much risk of self damage
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