eyesign real or fake

[Jack Barkel]

Hello All,

 

It is with sadness that I read some replies on the reliability of eye sign and the other characteristics of racing pigeons.

I have proved in a book about to be published that there are many recognisable variables in the physical attributes of

the racing pigeon as well as in eye sign or iridology as I prefer to refer to it, when practiced by the more well informed.

 

These variables are what I call Genetic Drift, which I have proved by photographs of the eye to have little or no variation

in the wild species of pigeon, whereas the racing pigeon has a multitude of variables. I will admit that some cranks have

given eye sign a bad name as have many fanciers who like a certain feel and look of a pigeon, often eliminating many good

pigeons because they did not conform to certain specifications.

 

Because of the contribution of many types of pigeon to eventually arrive at the accepted design of the racing pigeon, there

are many variables such as long and short keel bones, wide or close to the body humerus bones, long or short secondary flights

in the wing, also curvature or none curvature of the wing, I could go on but do not wish to bore anyone with my first contribution.

 

I also do not wish to argue on any of these characteristics or how by the understanding of the construction of the eye and physical

characteristics we can improve our breeding techniques many times over. We can control this genetic drift which is always

trying to return to the original, to a part of the physical make up we need, and eliminate or enhance the chances of breeding

to those characteristics we wish to or should be holding on to.

 

I was at one time willing to argue about such things, but in a few months I will be seventy and do not readily jump off my stool

at the sound of the bell. I will try and answer guys like slugmonkey who wish to further their knowledge on the art of selection,

but will not get involved in trying to convince anyone who has conflicting ideas to those of my own.

 

Just remember that the genetic imprint and drift from the perfect eye balance can be seen in the eye if one knows what to look

for and when coupled with physical attributes can be channelled in a more favourable direction to produce the characteristics

and quality we desire. Also that it takes four good eyes and four sets of physical attributes to produce and control the birds we

consider worthy of keeping, and that we must have a knowledge of which of these eyes are compatible with each other.

This knoweledge will increase the percentages of these types that one can produce with regularity.

 

Be assured that if you are breeding high percentages with many variables in their physical and eye make up, then you need to

consider delving into the hidden mysteries of nature and science as regards to breeding better pigeons with regularity.

 

Please note that I have not attempted to push any theories down anyones throat, just to make you aware that it is best to explore

all avenues for they do exist, and are available for advancement to the fertile mind.

 

Kind Regards to All,

 

Jack Barkel

jackbarkel@mweb.co.za

 

http://mysite.mweb.co.za/residents/jackbarkel

[Guest]

Now that Jack has opened the discussion on eyesign I am posting an eyesign pitcute of AU 01 Red Rose 1024 Champion Motown Missile which was taken by Jack himself when he graded this pigeon World class

[PIGEON_MAN]

WORLD CLASS BREEDER OR RACER HYACINTH I THINK IT WOULD BE BETTER TO SAY WHICH,AS I CERTAINLY WOULDN,T CLASS IT AS A WORLD CLASS BREEDING EYE.

 

[westy]

nice pics off the eyes. i learnt a bit about the eyes when i went to see silverwings he got a sprint bird and a distance and gave me an eye glass to look into them i found it interesting.

[Guest]

Motown Breeds Breeders , his grandkids have won all over the USA, except for last year when I paired him with a different hen and those kids won several races club wise and won money in futurity races.

[THE FIFER]

HJALTLAND, TWO FEET ON THE LANDING BOARD TO WIN, MUST HAVE ETS, BIRD IN LOFT TAKE RUBBER OFF PUT IN THIMBLE THEN IN CLOCK  CONVENTIONAL,  LOL

  THIS IS JUST AS A JOKE BY THE WAY. LOL.

[Saffer]

I saw a great post by the famous Mark Evans.

When em eye men are picking up trophies ahead of us, we

will look into eyes...

 

When a top fanciers as above start using Eyes, I will buy every book.

To date, I have yet to find or hear about a true great in Big competition that uses Eyes.

 

When it comes to a family of pigeons, Recessive traits or dominant will show up in the eyes, toes and feathers.

 

But to pick out traits in unrelated cross bred pigeons seems abridge too far.

 

Just my Thoughts

 

Saffer

[PIGEON_MAN]

PROBABLEY THE FIRST GREAT EYESIGN MAN I HEARD OF THAT DID VERY WELL IN THE UNC WAS PETER VASSALLO AND IN MORE RECENT YEARS WITH HIS FATHER THE GREAT BILL CARNEY.

[Guest slugmonkey]

I have done well breeding performance to performance although I have had a couple of eye guys look in lofts and many were astonished at quality of eyes I dont know enough to form an educated opinion I feel that eyesign is a tool just like pedigrees and race records and just one more weapon to put in my arsenal I dont wish to become an expert just qualified enough to form an open minded educated opinion

[Jack Barkel]

Hello All,

 

I believe that many of us are missing the point here, a fancier constantly winning is either a good trainer or has a good system for racing.

 

I know fanciers who have stated and proved that they can beat their competitors with a pet shop pigeon.

 

How many times do these great flyers when presenting their birds to other fanciers  often are found to give poor performances. I do not think they ever gave away or sold poor performance birds????  It is the amount of effort put in by the handler that brings results.

 

Now this is where I think some of our assumptions and judgement on eye sign people are incorrect. One must ask do their birds fly consistently for others, have they bred a champion for their country. Have they with uncanny accuracy selected your best breeders having never seen your birds before.

 

A good rocket scientist may never fly into space, for that person is too busy making rockets for others to fly there. There is more financial gain in making it for others, and some find it just as enjoyable as racing. I know it has taken me to many parts of the world that I would never have seen if not for my accuracy in selection of pigeons. I have many stories of being put to the test, none of which resulted in failure.

 

I do not only use the eye in selecting, put it does play a major part.

 

I have had my share of success in competition but never put a real lot of effort into racing, I say, judge the eye sign person on their achievements in that category, in there selection, statements and results for others.

 

It will be wise for me to mention here that the eye does not always show the genetic imprint of a good racing bird, but it will show with uncanny accuracy the genetic imprint of a breeder. The breeder I can guarantee with pinpoint accuracy, especially when I do the compatible pairing, with racing I say have fun, but leave it to the basket for the final proof.

 

My results for selecting pairs to breed winners in top one loft races are legend, not from my own pigeons but their own pigeons. No one can be world champion in every aspect of the sport but some of us can claim recognition to excel at something.

 

As I said, I am not out to convince none believers but to re affirm that there is a place in our sport for eye sign. I have proved this many times without any shadow of doubt. Yes I have bred a South African champion, yes I have clocked up to 19 of my 20 entries winning and taking many positions in 600 mile races. Yes I have put birds together to breed a Sun City winner and many positions in the first 100 at Sun City for fanciers all over South Africa, bred from their own birds which I have selected and paired for them.

 

I think this is how you should judge an eye sign person, judge their results as a breeder and selector, not as a racing person.

 

I think this is fair comment.

 

Regards

 

Jack

[Guest slugmonkey]

If I had to look for one thing in an eye what would it be ( I am sure this is oversimplified )

[Jack Barkel]

Hello Slugmonkey,

 

Yes you are right, it is not as simple as that, but I would say that genetic drift is seen by the near perfection of the sphincter muscles. If you have a too thick iris you are breeding to far in to a full eye, and if you have a too thin iris you are breeding too far out. This is the basics of genetic drift, and if you look at the eye of Motown Missile by Hyacinth, you will see by the perfection of all sphincter muscles that there is very little genetic drift. It is what is known in the circles of iridoligy as a Silk. Something that is very rare today in humans, but still around in pigeons eyes.

 

This is very basic.

 

Regards

 

Jack

[Jack Barkel]

Hello All,

 

It has been my personal experience that many birds showing adequate speed lines as we call them were as sluggish as any pigeon could be, and that many with distance lines could not fly out of sight on a dark night.

 

Because of these inconclusive findings as to their authenticity I personally reject them in their entirety. If something is not at least 75% near to being infallible I will not risk my reputation on such erratic irregularities.

 

This is just my personal opinion having found just as many good pigeons without these speed lines and distance lines. I discarded it as unhelpful many years ago.

 

I mainly look at the width of the correlation as to what distance a bird will excel, plus the length of the secondary flights and the distance of the humerus bone from the body.

 

In one test I was blindfolded and given six pigeons to handle all which were winners. I was able to say within parameters of less than a hundred kilometres at which distances these birds had excelled if the velocities were 1150 and under metres per minute and if over 1150 metres per minute.

 

I believe it is within everyone's capabilities to do this, all it needs is plenty practice to become fairly accurate in ones assessment, it is also great fun at pigeon gatherings.

 

On Friday Margaret and I will be off to the Limpopo Province where we will be evaluating birds from a 150 kilometre radius. We are housed in a Lodge with Al e Carte meals and pigeon discussions, Barbeques are the order of the day. I estimate and have been guaranteed, 1000 birds to evaluate from Friday until Sunday evening.

 

This has been a regular engagement the first weekend in April for many years now. I think if the authenticity of eye and body evaluation had been in any doubt, this yearly pilgrimage would have died out a long time ago.

 

Regards

 

Jack

[Tony C]

I believe that many of us are missing the point here, a fancier constantly winning is either a good trainer or has a good system for racing.

 

Hi Jack,

          Is this all the credit you can offer to good fanciers that dont follow the eye sign theory ?

 

 

[Jack Barkel]

Hello Tony and Rose,

 

No Tony, there are many good flyers and breeders that do not believe in the eye sign theory, for that I give them all the credit in the world.

However I do believe they would be even better breeders, if they had an open mind and incorporate it in their beliefs. I have many good fancier friends that do not share my beliefs, and I will always give credit to good fanciers whether they believe in eye sign or not. I stated that it was in my opinion incorrect to judge an eye sign person because they may not be winning the majority of the prizes themselves. I stated that I know fanciers that can win with a pet shop pigeon, and I think that deserves a lot of credit for their ability to do this. I also believe that a person that breeds a lot of successful pigeons for others and does not use eye sign also deserves a lot of credit.

 

Rose I would say to you, try and base the iris on the thickness or width of that of Motown Missile, a narrowing or a widening of the iris is a sign that that pigeon will not breed the percentage of good ones you would like them to, although, as it is lying fairly dormant in their gene pool, the odd one will pop out from time to time.

 

This in my experience is based on all distance pigeons and the percentages they will re produce, with regularity.

 

Regards

 

Jack

[Saffer]

Jack

 

You put forward some good points.

 

But I still feel, there is no simple, or rules in this game.

Take for instance the Sun City race, millions not hundreds of variables are at play.

This all under one type of management, Luck, buckets of it, and top pigeons are needed.

Much like at a fanciers backyard loft.

Yet, the top Ten is not won by Selectors or Click pairs, as even here, one year a pair can breed a winner in each nest, and the next year not breed one.

Their eyes have not changed, but it is the nature of this game, that I feel keeps us all trying.

 

I think that this is were the true secrets lie, hidden from everyone by nature.

If any found the solution to Breeding winners, first they would never need to send more than 1 pigeon to the race, as they have the winner selected.

Second they would keep 2 stock pairs at most, as they would not need more.

 

This I have yet to see.

 

Much like the throat theory, followed by 2 of Englands best fanciers. They let everyone know of it last year.

No bet it wont change anything, they will still be top, and every fancier that trys out the theory, wont change anything.

As no matter what this game is all about a top quality base of pigeons.

From there I think anything and everything can be applied, as top pigeons are very forgiving on fanciers mistakes or applied theories.

 

Regards saffer

[Saffer]

Hello All,

 

Yes I have put birds together to breed a Sun City winner  

 

Please expand on this.

The Year?

The pigeon?

The Breeder?

 

Thanks Saffer

 

 

[Tony C]

Jack

      Yes respect should be given to others that may have different views than our own and expect likewise in return. Anything that challenges the norm and gets the old grey matter working to me cant be a bad thing. Eyesign real or fake? I haven’t got a clue, never studied it, read about it yes but not enough to come to a conclusion either way. I’ll carry on reading about it as I do with everything else that pertains to pigeons with an open mind. No one knows it all but if we share we’ll all be that bit wiser.

 

Cheers

[jimmy white]

REALLY AFTER MORE THAN 50 YEARS RACING I HAVE NEVER WENT FOR EYE SIGN, REASON BEING, I AM HONEST, AND KNOW VERY LITTLE ABOUT IT,I BELEIVE WE HAVE A LOT OF SO CALLED IROLOGY EXPERTS, THAT ARE PLAYING AT IT ,AND PROFFESS TO BE EXPERTS.THE POSTS MADE BY JACK BARKEL ARE VERY GENTLEMANLY PUT, AND I HAVE TO SAY WORTH THINKING ABOUT , I ALLWAYS BELEIVE WITH PIGEONS YOU HAVE TO KEEP AN OPEN MIND ON MOST THINGS

[Jack Barkel]

Hello Saffer and All,

 

In reply to your first post to me,  I totally accept and in many aspects agree with you. However the biggest variable or imponderable that I have found with all theories is the fanciers themselves. Nine out of ten fanciers I have watched go through the motions when handling a bird , ie examining throat, eye, wing, bone and muscle structure etc etc, when asked what they noticed in their examination cannot give you a conclusive answer or description once they have released the pigeon. The conclusion I have come to is that as creatures of habit they are just going through the motions. The other 10% are the ones who can apply these features successfully. This has been my deduction over many years and I have proved it off and on stage. If more people applied themselves more seriously to these theories, I believe it could have a greater impact on our sport. This lack of diligent seriousness is what has kept professional evaluators like myself in business for many years. I am here to share these skills with those who have an open mind on the subject, however I am not prepared to argue or get involved in altercations with the sceptics. There is space for either side without clashing. I can live with them and hope they are of mature mind to be able to live with me.

 

In answer to your second letter or request, let me say, I joined this list not to present or prove my own bona fides, but to present and define eye sign as I see it. Although I have computer records going back for more than ten years on all evaluations and pairings, I do not see why I should put any of my individual customers on this list to prove I am writing the truth. This is a professional business that I run, the records are for the customers eyes and mine alone, shall we say it is privileged information that you ask. This information can be provided for a fee, just as you can apply to see someone's patent. This often deters or proves the intentions of those making such a request, if it is so important to them they will willingly pay, but then again such information will be sent privately and not to the whole forum.

 

 

Sorry Saffer this is the only way I will not accommodate you on this one, I do not intend to say what I have done for any particular individual. Many have come forward and addressed the whole Super Bowl at Sun City on occasions such as these, making no secret of it.

 

Suffice it to say that I myself not having entered the Sun City race regularly, achieved a 19th at Sun City in January of 1998, when there were less than 200 in on the day. This was a Busschaert Cock, and is still in my loft today.

 

I have also bred a SA champion pigeon on the coefficient system 886,009 birds competing. The photograph and write up of this bird was also in the British Racing Pigeon. This was a Busschaert bred by me through perfect line of descent to Dr Jeff Horn's Champion Grizzle Cock and  a daughter of Charter flight which I imported from my brother Sid Barkel of Ryhope, Sunderland, in 1989. He and I flew together as Barkel Brothers from the mid 1950s to 1965 when I emigrated to South Africa.

 

Let me put my case for eye sign as I see it without having to undergo an investigation. I have no axe to grind with anyone who does not believe me or my eye sign theories, as I came on this list to help those who do believe in it. I was told you fanciers ( those interested in eye sign) needed an eye sign practitioner that had wrote popular books and articles on the subject, and had toured several countries giving seminars and demo's on the subject. Well I am here and used to heavy criticism, anyone of you can avail themselves of my experience or ignore it. I get no fun in fighting for a top perch anymore. I would rather sit quietly on a bottom one than get my wattles bloodied for nothing. I have all the reputation I need and am certainly not looking for more.

 

 

There are many on this list that wish to read what I have to say on this fascinating subject, please to those sceptics, I ask you to not deprive them of this opportunity by making me feel once again as on other forums, like General Custer at his last stand. This is all I am mainly here for, to help those who wish to advance further in the subject of eye sign, to share their ideas, and not to pit my knowledge against others, who may not wish to give it any consideration.

 

Kind Regards To All,

 

Jack

[Guest Silverwings]

hello Jack barkell , read your posts on here with interest would be gratefull for your opinion on a couple of points on eye sign ,have looked at eyes myself until blue in the face , and find the subject  still as interesting as i did 30 years ago some of the best flyers i have ever met and houshold names in the U,k use this theory to great effect , Question ; over the years i have found many birds have one  eye  stronger than the other and in most cases this usually relates to the left or right position of the central tail feather ie; stronger left eye, ( left tail feather ) etc ,also a breif study found birds with the strengths in the right eye had exelent results in west winds and vice versa , strong left eye good east wind results , for some years now i find that mating so called right sided to left sided birds improves the quality and balance to my birds , their tail feathers are almost central and eyes are of equal quality , now they do well with either  winds ? i also find that pigeons with a searching eye and rapid pupil contraction / dilation  the ones to be on , ( in my loft that is ) think your post regarding birds having too much or to less in the eye make up is spot on .......ray

[Jack Barkel]

Hello Ray,

 

My first examination of the eyes, is to put them under a bright light without my loupe and observe their contraction of the pupil. If one has not got a reactive pupil I discard it, but one must be aware that anti biotic, or illness, even thirst can cause dilation of the pupils, we must be careful on this point. There is nearly always a perception of variation between the left and the right eye because of body organs and even brain functions not being positioned central in the system, more evident with humans than with pigeons.

 

I have found that the closer to perfection the quality of the eyes are, this can be seen to bring with it near central tail feathers and a good throat. I also mention in my new book about to go to print about this, for I believe that a bird that moves its eyes without moving its head is orientating itself. Rapid eye orientation is another plus I believe.

 

I think you and I are on a similar wave length in our perceptions, and may I add I never use natural sunlight in eye selection, I use a 12 volt 50 watt cool light, which gives the same light refraction no matter what part of the day or night. In so doing one does not get the variables of a bright sunny day or the position of the sun as it arks across the sky.

 

Yes this is my first observation before I ever put my magnifier into operation.

 

Thanks for your post,

 

Jack Barkel

[Guest]

Jack,

 

Your previous post brought back some happy memories when you mentioned "Custers Last Stand" a very interesting time spent visiting The Little Big Horn.

[Guest]

Jack

 

If you go to www.pigeonradio.com and click on archives you will be able to listen to the live interview we did yesterday evening, Steve spoke and took questions on breeding and old bird flying, he mentioned his close association with you and that he was following your methods of pairing etc.  I spoke on young bird flying and Sports promotion in the USA

[Guest slugmonkey]

When is new book avaible and where do I get one