EYES WHAT U THINK!!!

[Guest]

Ron which Uni did you go to theres's nowt on this thread that would earn a first

[Bilco]

I discovered some time ago that Albear knows one hell of a lot about eyesign.  In short he knows his onions !  I respect him for that immensely.  His comment regarding the origin of the eyes shown on page one jogged my memory, I suspect I may have seen those eyes (or some of them) in advts by an Australian gentleman whose "Black Diamonds" would make anyone choke for eyesign. And they won out of turn too.

[Bilco]

Nothing to do with eyesign,  but since my comment at Post 303 (above) I have read all the rest of the 21 pages to date, and now know a little more of the various arguments, or debates, that make them up.  "Mr Staf Van Reet" never came back, so who was the joker? It seems that nobody knows. Hardly worth worrying about now.  In retrospect someone "started a hare" and it has proved an entertaining one too.  I know Bill Carney well, spoke to him in the last year, but sadly he is not a well man.  Jack Barkel is an old friend, I trust you go well Jack?  Others among the debaters are old 'pen friends'. When are you coming this way again Alan ?  My loft needs clearing, and there are some you might like to take to add to those you already have.  All best, Cheers, Bill.

[Jack Barkel]

Hello Bill,

 

Glad you are still keeping busy, I remember some time ago we communicated about a South African that I said I couldn't vouch for. Since then he and I have become very great friends, he is a practicing lawyer that flies pigeons. He handles any legal cases appertaining to pigeons that come up for me, and I have since found him to be very trustworthy.

 

I intended to write to you about this matter but lost your e-mail address.

 

I am sorry to hear that Bill Carney is not in good health, he has taken some abrasive criticism in his time, and I believe this is what deters many eye sign people from coming out of the closet. The subject is so controversial and one does not have to be a tall tree to catch some very strong winds. Even a low profile can still land a person in the hot seat.

 

Albear and I, have also been very friendly towards each other over the last few years, although we differ in opinion on something's, we have a mutual respect for one another, and obviously for the two famous Bill Cs in our life.

 

I would like to think that most people see our replies as defending a system, method, or a person, and not of bickering.

Healthy debate never hurt anyone, as long as people do not get personal if they seem to be losing in the discussion.

 

Bill I have no idea how to get your e-mail address from this list, please resend it to me when you have the time.

 

Kindest Regards

 

Jack

jackbarkel@mweb.co.za

http://mysite.mweb.co.za/residents/jackbarkel/

 

 

 

[Guest]

Bilco lovely to hear from you, thought you were recuperating in France. Time at the mo Bill is like gold dust, since I 've started back fulltime work, don't get time to spit..........the birds are suffering though they are flying quite well!!

The Van Loon hen that topped the Fed you gave me, wouldn't mate, however I put one of my race hens from Nigel Rigiani with my little Dutch Cock whose Gmother is thr mother of Joop Koch's Gouden Frans, I've now put Nigel's hen back on the road (yearling she was 4th club first channel race about 1100ypm) and your hen has now mated to the litle Dutchman, they will hatch in about a week I think, a bit late but I think it is a cracking mating so will rare them to see what they breed like. The Rothwell cock you gave me has bred my some nice bold YB and I am hopeful that they will do well!!

Thank you for your kind words, very much appreciated. I have been very lucky to have for nearly three decades Bilco as a friend.

 

[timbarra]

please ask yourselves, why do none of the best flyers in the belgium, germany, or holland put messages in this forum, because you matter not.

[Guest]

Good point Spencer

[Bilco]

I'd suggest it may be because they may not be confident enough in our language to attempt technical descriptions, or perhaps they do not know of its existence, or they may not be PC users . . .  Maybe a score of different reasons, who knows ?  How many Dutch, German or French language Forums are you aware of, or contribute to, Timbarra ?  Do they matter to you?  To condemn our continental cousins as scorning us may well be to do them an injustice.  To generalise, and suggest that we do not matter to these "Gods" (perfectly nice ordinary people in my experience) may well not be doing them (or us) any favours.  Cheers, Bill.

[doos r us]

opctition told me after eyetest to c my doctor dont like the look of that she said after a going over doc said get out and dont waste my time theres sick people out there as long as they got 2 eyes that will do for me

[Guest]

Hell popeye, that's a worry, which one is the quack?

[timbarra]

bilco, read what i have written .. i have not insulted any of our continental cousins at all . for you to see that in any message i have written is pure ignorance on your part.. i think british fanciers and 80% of them are bloody stupid and dated in their thoughts and projections. as i think you are sir and believe me its about time the older generation of pigeon hobbiests and yes it is a hobby not a sport.. changed with the times . as for you thinking that top flyers abroad do not have a computer or fail to understand our language is again silly of you to think. i will leave you and your thoughts to whatever notion you have,

[timbarra]

and  i actually do think the other top flyers in countrys such as germany , belgium , holland do think of us as stupid and how correct they are. they are far more advanced than us in every department. we even buy their pigeons that they dont want thinking they are great.... they always find a mug to buy them in GB.

[Jack Barkel]

Dear Spencer / Timbarra,

 

You are once again asking a question and answering it yourself with an opinion that can be considered unfavourable and insulting to this Forum and it's members. I could answer your question which would not show you in a very good light, but I will refrain from doing so. To continue by insulting such famous scribes as "Bilco" and English fanciers in general, forces me to write this response to you, and I hope I am not wasting my time.

 

I do not wish to seem a do good, but this is my last attempt to try and get through to you. This is not a letter of insults, but an effort to point out to you where I believe you would not fail so miserably, if you could write with a little more understanding of your own failings, instead of being so critical of those of others. That is why I make a last attempt to respond to you, to try to get you see reason.

 

You will never claim much respect from most people as long as you carry on the way you do.

I would also like to add that I do not make a supplement income out of pigeons as you keep implying. It has been my full time  job since 1990.  I also add, that I am not striving to tell the fanciers on Pigeon Basics how good or clever I am as you imply. I let others do that if they wish to do so, from the services I have provided.

 

Too much can be attributed to hearsay in your attempt to prove your capabilities at anything.

 

Learn to respect other peoples points of view, even if your opinions are different. I can respect your point of view, but not the way you apply it. It is not your right to force your opinions on anyone. Let them hear your opinion and decide for themselves. It is insensitive to think because you decry the benefits of eye sign, and give no facts or any correlated proof to what you imply, that you are making anyone else believe that what you say is anything other than figments of your imagination.

 

You came on the list and attempted to minimise the benefits of eye sign, and insulted everyone that questioned your statements. You have accused people wrongly and constantly went out of your way to lock horns with those who take your utterances with a pinch of salt. One person on the list started his own thread on this forum, because you had the audacity to offer to teach him about the eye. If you go to the thread titled "Questions and Answers on eyes", you will see that the person although he is no associate of mine, certainly proved to the list he is much further advanced in the science than yourself. It would be laughable if it was not a great pity you are so blind to the ridicule you create for yourself.

 

Please, I am just trying to make you aware that we Old Hands are not set in our ways as you state. Most of us have open minds and a thirst for new knowledge. We are however obviously more skilled in the art of debating than you will be for a long time, unless you learn from your mistakes which I am taking the bother to point out to you.

 

I have never since my first unfortunate clash with you tried to teach you anything about eye sign, neither have I condemned your method, although I have said I do not agree with you. Can you say the same about your references to anyone? I don't think so. I am not in the habit of giving anybody advice unless they ask me for it. I will not push my methods down anyone's throat, although I will defend them to the letter, those who do not want to listen get bored. However the advice I am offering to you on here is friendly advice, that I believe you need.

 

Cease trying to brow beat eye sign people, I say issue a challenge to people you have degraded on this site, rather than publicly insult them. That will prove to me you have the courage of your own convictions.  You may have something to offer, but until you learn to put it across in a manner where you are not challenging those who are not entirely convinced, you will always be the loser and be considered stubborn amongst other cracks in your character, by all except those nearest and dearest to you.

 

Please try to stop degrading people you have never met, or the theory by which they earn an HONEST living. Until you conduct yourself in an intelligent and civilised manner, which I am sure you are capable of, you can't expect people to treat you in any other way than they do. You can be a very abrasive person Spencer, and neither I or any other self respecting person will put up with such an attitude.

 

So ends my evaluation of you and your correspondence Spencer. Although I have not tried to teach you anything about pigeons, I hope what I have said here, will improve your sojourn through life, before you self destruct.

 

I have said before and I will say again, make an effort to live respected, and you will die regretted.

 

If you find this letter offensive, as you requested in your last inflammatory reply I will not converse with you again, for although I am not proud to write this e-mail, I feel it needed to be said.

 

Take this as an e-mail of advice, and not as an insulting letter. I had to be frank and maybe personal to make it clear that you are in the process of destroying the ability I think you have to be a good pigeon scribe. Your choice of being a successful and popular writer needs some modification or adjustment, before you can converse on a par with the already popular scribes of today.

 

It is my sincere hope that you do not continue to fall into these pitfalls, for it is certainly retarding your progress. Whatever your decision I wish you every success with whatever is your direction in life, and assure you I have no intention to come into your life again unless requested, or unless I feel I must defend a principle which you seem to continuously abuse or break.

 

I would ask of you that if this letter annoys you that you answer me privately at jackbarkel@mweb.co.za rather than have the members of this forum disturbed anymore by your presence.

 

I say this from the bottom of my heart, for I have no ill feelings toward you or any man, but reserve the right to choose those I wish to be associated with.

 

I remain

 

Jack Barkel

 

 

[gangster]

and  i actually do think the other top flyers in countrys such as germany , belgium , holland do think of us as stupid and how correct they are. they are far more advanced than us in every department. we even buy their pigeons that they dont want thinking they are great.... they always find a mug to buy them in GB.

 

SORRY I MUST DISAGREE HERE SOME TOP BIRDS DO COME OVER AND DO PRODUCE THE WINNERS PLEASE DONT THINK ALL BELGIAN AND DUTCH FLYERS TREAT US LIKE IDIOTS COZ IT AINT TRUE IVE SOME VERY SPECIAL FRIENDS BOTH IN BELGIUM AND HOLLAND WHO ONLY GIVE ME FROM THERE BEST ITS UP TOME TO GET THE BEST OUT OF THEM............

[Guest Paulo]

Plus theres fanciers in England who are the equals of the Belgian and Dutch lads and birds being bred now in Britain who are as good as anything you can buy over there.

[Guest]

Spencer, you must be quite a young kid or have a huge chip, stop knocking everyone, there are times when you may think something, but it needs to be kept to yourself until you can prove what you are saying. I have asked you to justify several statements you have made but you have not had the courtesy to do that, nor withdraw them. Then you go on to insult one of the most respected guys in pigeon journalism ever, a man that has as more knowledge and experience of continental fanciers than most.

Curb your exuberance or rudeness it does you no favours. I am trying to help you.

[Guest]

Hi Timbarra,

 

I have had a look at your website as you requested and your pigeons are impressive. I have similar birds, your Meulemans originate from the same place as some of mine do, and the Klaks ar also similar, mine originate from both Arnold Beute and latterly Arie Van Beek.

 

As I said in my original posting responding to you, I am no eyesign expert, but my limited knowledge on the subject allows me quite a few things, besides extra enjoyment and interest, one of which is proof to me that there IS something in it. Let me please explain, my name is Dave Barkel. My uncle is Jack Barkel, who along with my dad was a partner in the original Barkel Bros partnership, of which I am proud to be a part of now. My uncle gifted me his books and video etc, to help  me with my interest. My limited knowledge came from this and also my dad who is an inspiration to me. Make no mistake, eyesign is not my god, and I cannot re-iterate enough that I AM NOT AN EXPERT, but it is without doubt an aid to me in selecting. Only a week after my uncle Jacks last visit to his Ryhope birthplace, I was requested by a local fancier to have a look at his birds eyes. I was able, with the use of eyesign alone, to pick out his best breeders, and also the only long distance pair in his loft. The guy thought I was god! And I know very little! Another example, I saw a top producing pair of pigeons for sale at Doncaster the same year. I examined their eyes. It was an interesting observation. I came home, and selected 1 pair, what had the same eyes as the pair I had observed in Doncaster, and paired them together. One went AWOL at an early race, the other won the club by 23 minutes, on an extremely hard and erratic day, figuring prominently in the Fed and UNC result from the young bird national. It may have been a fluke, but nevertheless, the pair were paired by eyesign, going off something I had observed in someone else's birds.

Only last Friday, on handling a clubmates birds for ringing, I noticed a particular Blue WF cock's eye was outstanding and I commented on this being the best of his birds. The cock was by far the best bird in the lads loft, he couldn't get over it! I am not an expert, I just saw something different, something outstanding in my opinion.  

Bill Carney visited our lofts when I was a young teenager, going through over a hundred and fifty birds, he picked out every main breeder, racer, and more so, a future ace racing widowhood cock, before he had won anything! He was one of the best racers we ever had. I can vouch hand on heart, he never put a foot wrong in our place. He is the best I have ever witnessed. I have heard many preach heresay against him, but I WITNESSED at first hand what this man can do, and that was definately not luck!

My uncle Jack is a very experienced pigeon man, and we are proud of his acheivements in the game. His knowledge comes from years of playing with the pigeons and making mistakes and learning by them. He knows what he is talking about. I have no intention of upsetting anyone, but feel that my factual anecdotes may help! And by the way, I am still not an expert, but I love the pigeons and particularly the breeding side!

My opinion on eyesign is simply this, its great and there is definately something in it, but use it as part of the jigsaw, not in place of it!

Enjoy your birds, and keep an open mind!

Davey B

dave.barkel@emersonprocess.com

[timbarra]

Dear jack,

I do not find any reason to lock horns with you. i have however said that people who want to listen to what i have to say should think about it and then make up their own minds, i have not forced my ways or methods down peoples throats or attempted to brain wash them. i do not challenge people as i feel i am not in the school playground anymore, unlike some.

as for the gentleman writing the thread on eyesign as he has found it , thank you i am finding it a good read and very interesting,

 

ALL I SAID WAS THAT EYESIGN SHOULD NOT BE USED TO SELECT RACING PIGEONS AND PRIDICT THEIR ABILITY, AND I HAVE FRIENDS WHO USED BILL CARNEY'S SERVICES AND FOUND HIM TO BE INCORRECT.

EYESIGN MEN SEEM TO WANT TO HOLD ON TO WHAT THEY THINK IS RIGHT AND DO NOT WISH EYESIGN TO EVOLVE .... EYESIGN IS CHANGING AND IT IS BASED ON THE EYE BEING A GENETIC FINGERPRINT OF A CERTAIN INDIVIDUAL.

NOT USING EYESIGN AS A SELECTION TOOL.

 

This is probably going to get you all heated again and daggers flying.

 

I ASK YOU THIS JACK AND I WANT A HONEST ANSWER!! IF EYESIGN SHOULD BE USED TO SELECT AND BE USED AS A SELECTION TOOL AS YOU AND MOST EYESIGN EXPERTS THINK, WHY DO PEOPLE WHEN ASSEMBLING A FOOTBALL TEAM OF TOP PLAYERS NOT LOOK IN THEIR EYES TO JUDGE THEIR ABILITY?

THE SAME APPLIES TO ATHELETES, RUGBY PLAYERS, CRICKETERS?

 

WELL ?

 

 

AND MAY I ASK WHERE YOU GAINED YOUR QUALIFICATION IN IRIOLOGY?

AND AT WHAT LEVEL? SO I CAN CHECK THAT YOU HAVE A DEGREE IN WHAT YOU SAY YOU ARE AN EXPERT AT?

 

DO NOT ANSWER ANYTHING ELSE EXCEPT WHAT I ASK THEN I CAN CHECK WITH THE APPROPRIATE PERSONS AND CONCEDE THAT YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.

 

Thank you. spencer

[timbarra]

Davey B, i think you are probably one of the most sensible people here and i apologise if what i say to you uncle is not to great, but i think you are clever enough not to use it totally as a selector of your pigeons and as part of the jigsaw instead of using it as a whole thing, i have a lot of repect for people of the more advanced years and experiance. i believe in good pigeons and good managment of them. thats it.

 

i do have respect for yourself and your uncle , but my findings are not as he finds things which i will have to concede that we must agree to disagree, i think your uncle and i have probably gone on like an old married couple.

 

pigeon men are stubborn, all of us, but what i want to promote is that people keep an open mind on eyesign.

 

cheers spencer

[timbarra]

gangster i do agree with you some of their birds are good, very good and i repect their fanciers enormously,

 

i shall not be returning to this forum i think.

 

regards spencer :-/

[Guest]

Hi Timbarra,

 

I respect your right to have an opinion, it is what freedom is all about, and what our forefathers fought world wars to keep for us to enjoy! I hope you change your mind on leaving the forum, as I think pigeon basics is one of the better sites for us! My response was merely to try to show that there is something in eyesign. The point I was trying to make is that if it can be shown by someone of such limited knowledge on the subject as myself, then what can those who have dedicated a vast part of their lives to studying it deeply do with it? People like my uncle Jack, Bill Carney, or the legendary Piet De Weerd! The possibilities are endless.

 

As for qualifications, I don't know of any pigeon related qualifications that anyone can get. Experience and success can only measure your qualifications in the pigeon sport. And anyway, (and I say this with tongue in cheek mate so please don't be offended), as my work colleague loves to state to management, "Qualifications are bits of paper, I wipe my bum on bits of paper!"  ;D

To manage in the top English Football League now, you need some sort of UEFA coaching qualification. Sir Alex Ferguson doesn't have one, can he manage a top team? His paperwork says not! Could Bill Shankly, Matt Busby, Brian Clough, not manage in the top league, none had it! How many managers are there that HAVE the qualification that have not made the grade?

My uncle Jack is a good bloke Spencer, he would rather help you than do you a bad turn. His successes with pairing birds all over the globe back up what he preaches.

Please stay with the forum mate, you have different views to others, we all have, there is no need for you to leave because you don't agree with someone else. You are entitled to your opinion, sincerely I bare you no ill will or grudge just because you have an opinion. I had hoped that my anecdotes may have swung your thoughts a little!

I agree with you entirely on keeping an open mind! Please stay!

[Jack Barkel]

To All,

 

I have answered TIMBARRA privately as I feel we have had enough cheap insults on this forum.

 

However I must inform all who read is questions directed at myself, that I use eye sign in the main to select birds that show by their genetic imprint to be good producers and pair them accordingly to their compatability to produce the largest percentage of racer / breeders.

 

To try to compare eye sign as an aid to pick good sportsmen or teams are the words of a raving idiot. I think most of us are aware that he cannot be serious about the rubbish he continues to put on this forum.

 

To Davey B I say thank you for the remarks in my defense, and for being a gentleman in your replies to such a person.

 

Regards

Jack Barkel

[Guest]

Uncle Jack, no need for thanks!!

 

I suppose most of the opposition comes from frustration at not understanding, not knowing. The key to it all is to keep an open mind. There are plenty things that I don't agree with in pigeons, but it doesn't make me right either! I suppose for everyone one that believes, there are a thousand that don't. Those that don't want to know, well they can't be enlightened. Its their loss. They could be enjoying an particular interesting part of our game without letting it take over their lives, but choose not to, its their perogative. Those that want to know will ask the questions! I try not to become involved with pigeon politics as you know what has happened here over the years! The last episode was by far the worst experience of the lot! Only a death in the family would have been worse! Spencer has a point, there IS a lot of stupidity in the game. Whether I would have stated it in the manner he did is another question! I think he sounds an OK guy that is a little diss-illusioned with the game currently, and we have all been there! I would like to make friends, god knows we have enough enemies, but just like you, if prodded will respond. Its in our pedigree!

Please give my love to the family over there in South Africa, and switch off to the stress uncle Jack, it takes years off your life!

Love, honour and respect!

Dave.

[Jack Barkel]

Hello Davey,

 

I will certainly try not to stress, it cant take a lot of years off my life for I am very near the end, or should I say very close up front in the queue. But I keep sneaking further down the line for I have no wish to be up front in that particular queue.

 

As you know Davey my name sake died a month before I was born and I inherited his name and I suppose some of his genes were passed down to me also. He was the Methodist Minister and I find I share a lot of the love and good will for my fellow creatures that he must have past down. I would say maybe you and your Dear Father inherited more than I of those good genes. However, his wife, my grandmother would fight anything when the wrong buttons were pressed and I think many of those genes were transferred to me in abundance. Davey it is only in later years that I attained a reverse gear, and I agree there is a place for Spencer and probably his ideas in the pigeon game. I bear him no ill will.

 

There are many facets in the arts and sciences, and one of these is how to put your opinion across in the manner  so it will be acceptable to others. Some of us learn this art very easily, and some will only learn it after suffering many cuts and abrasions.

 

I could have replied off this list and as it is the only time we have conversed as an  Uncle / Nephew relationship, I hope people do not mind this once that I take the liberty. Next time I visit you, maybe you and I can visit this Spencer Timbarra guy, although he has cats lots of them, and I do not like cats.

 

I wish him no harm and did not send the angry letter to him last night, I thought better of showing my darker side, and deleted it.

 

It is my wish that the forum return to its former peace and tranquillity, where we can all join together in healthy pigeon discussions.

 

Once all list members can put forward their views without criticising the views of others, then and only then, will all forums be an enjoyable place to spend our leisure time. I like hearing the points of views of other fanciers, but they must refrain from condemning all other views than their own. They should also not make reference to religious or political connotations, therefore once again respecting the opinions and beliefs of others.

 

Until then there will be no peace or pleasure in what we should be here for.

 

Regards

 

Jack

 

 

 

[timbarra]

hi Davey, i will be leaving the forum yes, and it will probably be a quieter place after i have gone, i still have not had the answers i asked for , for me to concede Jack Barkel correct , i gave him the chance and alsa could not prove me wrong with any facts, as for sir alex ferguson not having his F.A coaches badge, well its against the rules not to have it, and i know for a fact he has got it !! and if he spoke to me about football i would listen due to the fact being , he is the most succesful manager alive toay and he is qaulified to do so. as for your uncle he is neither of these.

 

so is the great Jack Barkel going to answer my questions or slip them as before . ? my questions are still waiting to be answererd Jack.

 

regards spencer,