Eyesign Facts not Theory,

[timbarra]

I have studied the pigeon eye for many a number of years nearly 20 in total, I started with the basic knowledge through wonderful books as, Brian Vickers-eyesign evaluation and this taught me the basics and was the start of understanding eyes for the first time.

The next book I found very informative was Racing and breeding by Victor Vansalen , which really is a must for any fancier or player in pigeons.

Victors book touched on genetics in an easy to understand format, this is invaluable to any eye study theorist.

 

I learnt that eyesign being genetically link could take us into a new realm of understanding pigeons, but what could we do or learn from looking into the eyes of pigeons ?

 

I was a believer in eyesign as a selection tool and after a further study of genetics (basics) I found this to be a half truth as to many times has it been found to not be 100% correct, and 95% correct is not good enough, due to the theory then having a flaw .

 

So eyesign as a selection tool was totally ignored, so what was its value to the sport? confirmation of parentage ! as eyesign is genetically link and is a genetic fingerprint to any individual, I then set out to find what could or how could we benefit.

 

Eyesign can bring to us the oppotunity to confirm parentage in individuals without having to rely on pedigrees . as we all know some pedigrees can be incorrect and cocks may tread other hens if in a communial loft.  

 

first of all we must set our base as to what eye colours are and their identity.

YELLOW = DOMINANT

WHITE = RECESSIVE

BULL = IS PIGMENT LACKED BUT CARRIES WHAT EVER GENE WHITE OR YELLOW FROM PARENTS.

 

GENTIC TRAITS WITHIN THE EYE REAPPEAR IN THIER PROGENY DUE TO INHERITED GENETICS. THESE MARKS CAN BE SEEN IDENTIFIED AND CONFIRMED BY EXAMINATION OF PARENTS IN RELATION TO THE INDIVIDUAL PIGEON BEING VALUED.

 

THATS IT !!! Simple as that , there is no secret sign , no greens violets , composits or any other means needed. why would it be so hard to learn eyesign, who makes it hard , us the people who deal in this so called theory, well its not hard , its as easy as that, we try to look and find so much into something to make the experts look so very knowledgable, why?   its not hard its simple, if we kept it simple the folowing and use of eyesign would be legion not the exceptional few.

 

Remember genetics and eyesign go together. eyesign as a measuring tool is not an option here, eyesign enthusiasts use eyesign to get to the top , but the only way this can be achieved is , good pigeons , hard work and patience.

 

 

spencer

[Guest TAMMY_1]

I have studied the pigeon eye for many a number of years nearly 20 in total, I started with the basic knowledge through wonderful books as, Brian Vickers-eyesign evaluation and this taught me the basics and was the start of understanding eyes for the first time.

The next book I found very informative was Racing and breeding by Victor Vansalen , which really is a must for any fancier or player in pigeons.

Victors book touched on genetics in an easy to understand format, this is invaluable to any eye study theorist.

 

I learnt that eyesign being genetically link could take us into a new realm of understanding pigeons, but what could we do or learn from looking into the eyes of pigeons ?

 

I was a believer in eyesign as a selection tool and after a further study of genetics (basics) I found this to be a half truth as to many times has it been found to not be 100% correct, and 95% correct is not good enough, due to the theory then having a flaw .

 

So eyesign as a selection tool was totally ignored, so what was its value to the sport? confirmation of parentage ! as eyesign is genetically link and is a genetic fingerprint to any individual, I then set out to find what could or how could we benefit.

 

Eyesign can bring to us the oppotunity to confirm parentage in individuals without having to rely on pedigrees . as we all know some pedigrees can be incorrect and cocks may tread other hens if in a communial loft.  

 

first of all we must set our base as to what eye colours are and their identity.

YELLOW = DOMINANT

WHITE = RECESSIVE

BULL = IS PIGMENT LACKED BUT CARRIES WHAT EVER GENE WHITE OR YELLOW FROM PARENTS.

 

GENTIC TRAITS WITHIN THE EYE REAPPEAR IN THIER PROGENY DUE TO INHERITED GENETICS. THESE MARKS CAN BE SEEN IDENTIFIED AND CONFIRMED BY EXAMINATION OF PARENTS IN RELATION TO THE INDIVIDUAL PIGEON BEING VALUED.

 

THATS IT !!! Simple as that , there is no secret sign , no greens violets , composits or any other means needed. why would it be so hard to learn eyesign, who makes it hard , us the people who deal in this so called theory, well its not hard , its as easy as that, we try to look and find so much into something to make the experts look so very knowledgable, why?   its not hard its simple, if we kept it simple the folowing and use of eyesign would be legion not the exceptional few.

 

Remember genetics and eyesign go together. eyesign as a measuring tool is not an option here, eyesign enthusiasts use eyesign to get to the top , but the only way this can be achieved is , good pigeons , hard work and patience.

 

 

spencer

 

Glad you have simplified it for us timbara.  

[Guest IB]

You've mentioned genetics a few times in your post. If you understand genetics you'll know that the creature in front of you is not the genotype, its the phenotype, the expression of countless and unknown combinations of genes the arrangement and working of which we can only begin to guess at.

 

Determining Genotype requires more than an eyesign glass; if it didn't a lot of scientists have been paid a lot of money over a lot of years to map the human genome, when according to you it can be done in 5 minutes looking at the human eye.

 

It requires DNA sequencing, and even when this is used to determine parentage, its never more than 99.? % certainty.  

 

These are the facts.

[timbarra]

Hello,

Thank you for your inteligent response and it is pleasant to converse with someone who deals with facts and not theory.

 

Yes you are quite correct to state that DNA sequencing is required to determine parentage to 99.9% certainty. I am also sure that the eye subject has also been explored and will speak to the qualified people concerned and give you an answer to this.

 

Yes you are quite right in stating it requires more than an eyeglass!! but this method can be used , as I have personally done this and still I have an open mind , so your comment will be explored and answer will be given,

 

please find myself open to critisium and constructive comments , I am not yet an old dog so therefore not beyond having an open mind.

 

thank you sincerly spencer

[Guest IB]

Wasn't meant as criticism, Timbarra.

 

I am convinced that there are people who have the skills to determine certain things from the eye. And that includes pigeon fanciers and pigeons' eyes. I applaud their skills which they have been practiced over many years.

 

What I am not convinced about is that it is possible to see anything 'genetic'.  For example, looking for signs of muscle, retina, lens etc deterioration is a normal part of any Optician's examination. Yes these could be down to defective genes, but poor health, injury or disease are equal candidates for causing them.

[timbarra]

Hello I.B, no please do not think you may have offended me, your comments are most welcome, I let my breeding skills and racing skills determine good pigeons from mediocre ones, I do not use eyesign as a selection tool . never do. I believe that it can be used as a confirmation of pedigree, I have found some links for you just to touch on and consider also please give some feed back, eyesign should have moved on by now to a new level which I use myself and shown others when interested, I am not commercially minded in this respect. Please take a look , keep an open mind and decide for your self what is factual and which is one mans idea (theory).

 

kind regards spencer

 

The Eye Color Chart can be used to determine:

1.     The probable eye color of the child when the eye colors of the mother and the father are known, or

2.     The probable eye color of the biological father when the eye colors of the mother and the child are known.

Background:

Eye color is known to have a polygenic inheritance pattern, possibly governed by 6 or more genes. There are generally 8 different described eye colors. Basically, dark is dominant at each of the 6 genes. The more dominant alleles that you have the darker your eyes are. The different eye colors and number of dominant alleles suggested in this theory are seen below.

 

IDENTIGENE Eye Color Inheritance Chart:

  (Number of dominant alleles shown below each eye color)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

0     1     2     3     3-4     4     5     6

 

 

Visit these sites below to find out more that there is a link between genetic inheritance and the eye.

 

 

 

http://www.atypon-link.com/AAP/doi/abs/10.1375/twin.8.3.198

 

the chart may not down load.

[Roland]

the only fact about 'Eye Sign' is that it is a theory. Hence no data is forcoming ever, scientific or otherwise.

[timbarra]

Hi Roland, nice to hear from you again, with reference to your comment, it is valid to a point, eyesign as a selection tool is theory yes !! this should not be done using eyesign your quite right.

Eyesign or markings or the making up of the eye is a genetic trait, this is a fact nothing more.  parentage can be confirmed using eye study for this purpose alone.

 

I totally agree with you roland ... eyesign for selection purposes is a theory !!  which is one mans claim to fame of an idea, which he may use to mind wash others into thinking he knows more about good pigeons than the next man.

 

Maybe eye study or visual eye genetics should be more of a title, not eyesign ?

 

hope your well friend spencer

[Lennut Tar]

Hi Roland, nice to hear from you again, with reference to your comment, it is valid to a point, eyesign as a selection tool is theory yes !! this should not be done using eyesign your quite right.

Eyesign or markings or the making up of the eye is a genetic trait, this is a fact nothing more.  parentage can be confirmed using eye study for this purpose alone.

 

I totally agree with you roland ... eyesign for selection purposes is a theory !!  which is one mans claim to fame of an idea, which he may use to mind wash others into thinking he knows more about good pigeons than the next man.

 

Maybe eye study or visual eye genetics should be more of a title, not eyesign ?

 

hope your well friend spencer

 

Timbarra !!!!! If I remember correctly now, it was a pigeon flyer called "Book Richardson" from America etc, who attacked this subject, along the same similar lines as yourself etc. Very thought provoking !!!!!! & I found  his ideas/thought's very interesting to read, & more in tune with reality, one could say. Compared to some of our more local  experts ??????   :D .

Enjoy.

 

 

[Guest TAMMY_1]

the only fact about 'Eye Sign' is that it is a theory. Hence no data is forcoming ever, scientific or otherwise.

 

exactly Roland , a theory

[Guest IB]

Timbarra, I do not think you have given the full picture. This is a website which gives the same chart but more or less says it cannot be relied upon for the purpose you wish to put it ... determining paternity.

 

DNA Bioscience Eye Colour Inheritance Chart

 

The DNA Bioscience  eye colour inheritance chart is based on a theory that dates back to the 1800's. It is not a reliable predictor of paternity.

 

DNA Bioscience provides the eye colour inheritance chart as an educational service for our guests. Visitors seeking a more accurate determination of paternity for personal or legal purposes are encouraged to order either a private DNA paternity test or a legal DNA paternity test.

 

http://www.dna-bioscience.co.uk/did_you_know_eye.shtml

 

 

I always hesitate when posting on genetics because it is too easy to oversimplify an extremely difficult and complex subject. I know that you have posted that there are a number of genes involved in eye colour inheritance, and the next heading is not meant to infer that you didn’t, it follows an interactive part of the web page ‘what colour will the child’s eyes be’ where only two colour genes are used instead of  the unknown number thought to be involved. My main reason for including it is to demonstrate to you and others that there is more not known about genetic inheritance than there is known, and one of them is eye colour inheritance - one of the sources is a paper dated 2007, so this information is bang up to date. I stand by what I said before, that it is foolish to say that it is possible to read anything genetic in the eye, when even the genetics of eye colour inheritance aren’t fully understood.

 

Eye color is more complex than two genes

In humans three genes involved in eye color are known. They explain typical patterns of inheritance of brown, green, and blue eye colors. However, they don't explain everything. Grey eye color, Hazel eye color, and multiple shades of blue, brown, green, and grey are not explained. The molecular basis of these genes is not known. What proteins they produce and how these proteins produce eye color is not known. Eye color at birth is often blue, and later turns to a darker color. Why eye color can change over time is not known. An additional gene for green is also postulated, and there are reports of blue eyed parents producing brown eyed children (which the three known genes can't easily explain [mutations, modifier genes that supress brown, and additional brown genes are all potential explanations]).

 

The known Human Eye color genes are: EYCL1 (also called gey), the Green/blue eye color gene, located on chromosome 19 (though there is also evidence that another gene with similar activity exists but is not on chromosome 19). EYCL2 (also called bey1), the central brown eye color gene, possibly located on chromosome 15. EYCL3 (also called bey2), the Brown/blue eye color gene located on chromosome 15. EYCL3 probably involves mutations in the regulatory region just before the OCA2 gene (which produces a protein that is expressed in melanocytes). A second gene for green has also been postulated. Other eye colors including grey and hazel are not yet explained. We do not yet know what these genes make, or how they produce eye colors. The two gene model (EYCL1 and EYCL3) used above explains only a portion of human eye color inheritance. Both additional eye color genes and modifier genes are almost certainly involved.

 

http://www.athro.com/evo/gen/genefr2.html

 

Sources: Duffy et al, 2007; Eiberg and Mohr, 1987; Eiberg and Mohr, 1996;

Entrez Nucleotide NM_000275 Homo sapiens oculocutaneous albinism II (pink-eye dilution homolog, mouse) (OCA2), mRNA. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/viewer.fcgi?db=nucleotide&val=157266325

Online Mendelian Inheritance in Man, OMIM . Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore, MD. MIM Number: 227220: 6/15/1999: (EYCL3). World Wide Web URL: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/omim/

Online Mendelian Inheritance in Man, OMIM . Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore, MD. MIM Number: 227240: 7/21/1998 : (EYCL1) . World Wide Web URL: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/omim/

 

 

 

[timbarra]

IB, I understand your scepticism on the subject, I do not claim to know it all and I am not a qualified genetisist. I have done a basic research on the subject and my posting link to another site was trying to show some genetic link can be made !!

I have gathered my information over many years, although this does not make me a qualified expert on the subject, I believe I am possibly just opening a door to using eye study to bigger things. I only mean to help anyone who is interested in carryibg on with the subject and taking somewhere it should have gone many decades before now.

I believe many many eyesign men including Jack Barkel, Bill Carney, Brian May, S W E Bishop, etc... have flown the flag so to speak on eyesign and they have not wavered under scrutiny. alas they have not taken any further steps in this subject, just stopped at what they think is correct at the time.

 

I have determined parentage in individuals using the eye.... coincedence, luck, I dont think it is as the eye is a genetic finger print for any individual, look at security retinal eye scans? its in practice now and shall be here for a long time.

 

All I am saying is the eye is a genetic finger print for an individual, bird, animal or human.

As the eye is a genetic part of any individual it goes without saying then it is gentically inherited.

If genetically inherited can this inherited genetic material be visual and at that point can it be learned from?

If you can learn a certain part of genetic reading from the eye, what can be read ?

 

IB in what I found is the eye=genetic finger print=genetic information=genetic information is hereditary. which eqauls an opotunity to learn a gentic reading from the eye, which I have begun to do and is still although over 10 years in study still in its infancy. i think it will be used in information gaining over the next 40 years in any individual ... including human.

 

I offer this explanation as a possibly start for eyesign men to pull in the same direction and learn, but eyesign men should never claim to know it all or that its their way or no way. we can all be wrong but maybe we can begin to understand things never before known to us pigeon men.

 

Are you willing to maybe try and understand and give it a chance , just a chance !  I am not asking you or any other to use it to select your pigeons just mearly confirm a pigeon is from 2 parents stated on pedigree, therefore confirming you get what you may pay for at some point !!

 

kindest regards spencer

[timbarra]

IB, What i am saying is , the performance or ability of a pigeon or any individual cannot be read in the eye. eyesign men say it can , I say no it cant this is a theory, a theory is one mans idea to throw into everybody elses head that there is a quick route to the top . NO there is not as you well know sir.

 

What I believe eyesign or eye reading can be used for is confirming parents of a pigeon. thats it, this is based on gentics which can be read within the whole eye structure.

 

As I think an example is, the late Jed Jackson a fancier who won the National flying club and is respected the world throughout. He was a very inteligent man but he was blind, if any expert looked into hes eyes they would see that damage or deteriation of the eye was evident. but this never ever stopped him from being inteligent and gaining stature in he's lifetime of being one of the sports all time great fanciers. As many blind people are amazingly inteligent I therefore think eyesign to gauge how inteligent one is , is farcical.

 

But eye reading , trying to use genetic material within the eye make up is possibly what can be achieved ??

 

 

regards spencer

[The White Rapido Man]

if there are such stout believers in eyes sign....why has someone not quantified what they claim, and turned the therory into a fact.

 

 

 

Its all to confusing for me.....  

[Roland]

There is a very interesting article regards 'Human Eyes' that has done research as such... and much is told via the eye. It is of course a mirror to the sole. -Likewise with horses etc.

The 'Eyesign Theory' will always be just that till the so called experts can stop quibbling, trying to impress, and get down to some fundemental, realistic basics.

I like the eyes of my pigeons to be a pair, and preferable one each side of it's head.

Of course there is, and always will be many claims made, and all unprovable.

I mean just where would the money come from to research it sientifically... let alone a worthwhile reason for it, that can merit the time, and costs.

So in that reality of course one must draw largely upon their own expierences, results and what has been notted.

One other fact is that there are more good 'Eyes' than good pigeons, ... But then again, it may well be as the great peerless Bob Flemming said. 'Have seen many a good eye on a bad pigeon, but never a bad eye on a good pigeon'.

[timbarra]

WRM, I for one am taking my course studies into becoming a qualified Irologist, but things for myself are going slowly due to the fact that i have a young family and they take alot of time, plus I hold down full time employment, so time is short, but i will be gaining my degree in this subject.

I can only speak for myself and not others I am affraid.

 

regards spencer

[timbarra]

ROLAND your missing my point, there are not good eyes and bad eyes, just good and bad pigeons. eyesign as I know it can only confirm parentage of one set individual.  EYESIGN CAN NOT DETERMINE A GOOD OR BAD PIGEON, YOU SEEM TO NOT BE UNDERSTANDING THIS MAT AND WHEN THIS IS ACCEPTED OR NOT DEPENDS WHAT YOU WANT TO DO , THEN EYESIGN WILL BECOME MORE TO YOU.

You can not tell a good pigeon by looking in the eye.!!!

 

You can tell however if a pigeon is bred from both pigeons claimed to be its parents !!!

 

I have been proving this to some doubters who when they are corrected and my selection is correct are astounded that this can be done.

I can not see why these so called eyesign experts can not see what I do , especially as they harp on to know about genetics, I would not kill pigeons or pair them or select them in anyway on eyesign or I would have a loft full of pretty eyes and thats all.

 

I try to answer all questions on this subject but I agree with you , good pigeon does mean good eye and vice versa.

 

cheers spencer

[gangster]

and if you want 2 guarantee parentage ...dna test its a damn sight more accurate than using eyes????

[Guest IB]

I have determined parentage in individuals using the eye.... coincedence, luck, I dont think it is as the eye is a genetic finger print for any individual, look at security retinal eye scans? its in practice now and shall be here for a long time.

 

Here’s an interesting bit – I don’t understand what it means really. Iris pattern is random perhaps, and does not follow a set genetic determination? :-

 

The human iris is …  not genetically determined (which means that genetically identical eyes, e.g. the right and left eye of any given individual, have unrelated iris patterns) ..

http://www.tiresias.org/guidelines/biometrics_iris.htm

 

 

All I am saying is the eye is a genetic finger print for an individual, bird, animal or human.

As the eye is a genetic part of any individual it goes without saying then it is gentically inherited.

If genetically inherited can this inherited genetic material be visual and at that point can it be learned from?

 

My other piece on eye colour says we don’t know all the genes involved or how they combine. Now we have another piece on iris patterns that says iris patterns differ between two eyes in the same head, and we don’t know how that comes about?  That to me says we don’t know much about what went into designing the eye we are looking at, so it seems implausible that anything about anything hereditary can be read there. Surely if we do not know how the ancestors’ genes combined to form the decendant's eye, then we cannot possibly back check and say for certain that because two birds had the same colour / pattern of eye, that one is the ancestor / decendant of the other.  

 

 

 

 

 

[Lennut Tar]

and if you want 2 guarantee parentage ...dna test its a damn sight more accurate than using eyes????

 

What is the world coming to ???????? ;D ;D ;D now. Another non believer by the looks of it !!!!!! (Could be wrong) or maybe Gangster is just like me   ;) in some ways etc. Some one who enjoys looking at eyes at times. But only to see the health of the pigeon or to see how fit it may be, for the coming races   :P

Enjoy.

 

 

[timbarra]

I am willing to determine parentage on any pictures posted on here to help with any understanding, look I not bothered either way , I am not trying to convince anyone , just help understand the basics of eye study.

 

has anyone got a picture of a very inbred eye to post and a cross breed pigeon and I will tell which is which!!

 

thanks spencer

[PIGEON_MAN]

ROLAND your missing my point, there are not good eyes and bad eyes, just good and bad pigeons. eyesign as I know it can only confirm parentage of one set individual.  EYESIGN CAN NOT DETERMINE A GOOD OR BAD PIGEON, YOU SEEM TO NOT BE UNDERSTANDING THIS MAT AND WHEN THIS IS ACCEPTED OR NOT DEPENDS WHAT YOU WANT TO DO , THEN EYESIGN WILL BECOME MORE TO YOU.

You can not tell a good pigeon by looking in the eye.!!!

 

You can tell however if a pigeon is bred from both pigeons claimed to be its parents !!!

 

I have been proving this to some doubters who when they are corrected and my selection is correct are astounded that this can be done.

I can not see why these so called eyesign experts can not see what I do , especially as they harp on to know about genetics, I would not kill pigeons or pair them or select them in anyway on eyesign or I would have a loft full of pretty eyes and thats all.

 

I try to answer all questions on this subject but I agree with you , good pigeon does mean good eye and vice versa.

 

cheers spencer

 

Timbarra,Could you please tell me by what facts you are basing your statements on when you say, That eyesign cannot determine a good or bad pigeon,also that you cannot tell a good pigeon by looking in the eye.The facts that i would present to you are that my 3 best stock pigeons were chosen by their eyes only and have been breeding winners or card winners for a few years now,probabley the biggest fact is that 2 of them were strays and the other was picked out of 70 or 80 birds with no details about it.The only thing I used was eyesign.  

[Taylorsloft]

heres 2

[joe61]

hi taylorsloft could you please make second eye clearer as it is fuzzy as i would

like to know the outcome of this

 

cheers pal

[Taylorsloft]

no 2 again