Fly aways

[Roland]

Gregarious! A nice word used by Vic on another thread in regards pigeon behavior. Very true too Vic; it is the very fundamental of the pigeon. Hence whilst I believe that 'Over Crowding' is a myth.

Why do they then fly of the top or such and even have bad returns.

Too much inbreeding is a factor I believe. Nature takes a hand as incest is a no go area in nature, and likewise in humans. It has a very detrimental effect.

The biggest problem is that most that do incest breeding don't understand the fundamental reason. Do they really believe that the young bred will be the same or on par even!

Can't overfill a cup, it spills out. Likewise you can't make it a better bird by putting something in there that doesn't exist by just adding the same. Most don't realise that incest is just to hold the BLOOD lines, nothing more, and then it is the out cross that mixes and 'Flies! This is why Mother Nature takes a hand… and hence why some breed a 100 or so to counteract their losses.

 

[jimmy white]

i beleive we have" flyaways" due to nature,, if the loft is overcrowded, or for what ever reason  we can have" flyaways" our birds are closely related to the rock dove, which colonised in caves etc,, i beleive that nature made these birds" flyaway" to start another colony in another cave,[ otherwise they would be standing on top of each other if they just bred and bred in the same cave] natures way of multiplying the rock dove,and starting new colonies, i beleive our present day pigeon still has this trait inbred in them,to some degree

[gangster]

VERY INTERESTING QUESTION AND REPLYS

[Guest TAMMY_1]

WHAT DO YOU EXACTLY CALL OVERCROWDING IN A LOFT, HAVE HEARD SOME SAY THEY NEED MORE ROOM TO BREATHE AND GET PLENTY OXYGEN, WOULD IT NOT BE THE CASE IF THEY WERE NOT GETTING ENOUGH OF EITHER THEY WOULD DIE, LAST SEASON WAS THE YEAR I HAD THE LEAST AMOUNT OF YOUNG BIRDS IN THE LOFT AND IT WAS THE YEAR I LOST THE MOST FROM THE LOFT, SO PERSONALLY I WOULD DISPUTE YOU LOSE BIRDS IF YOU HAVE TOO MANY, I DONT MEAN YOU HAVE THEM SITTING ON TOP OF ONE ANOTHER BECAUSE YOU HAVE THAT MANY, I JUST FEEL IF YOU HAVE AN INDIVIDUAL PERCH FOR EACH BIRD AND PLENTY FRESH AIR IT SHOULD BE OKAY

[velo99]

  Roland my brother,

Flyaways are usually the result of hurried training while getting the squeaks in the air. Change your management techniques and your flyaway numbers will be reduced.

As far as inbreeding,if used in the correct way for the right reasons it will enhance the quality of the strain of birds by reinforcing the genes already in the bird. Same as getting a double shot of blue to make a blue spread bird. You just cant see them but they is there. Conversely, the "bad " genes can be re inforced as well. This is why one would need to carefully proceed along these lines and cull the inbred line with more care and caution than an cross line. Always make your decisions based on performance of the bird before proceeding.

jmho

v99

[gangster]

IM STILL WATCHING THIS VERY INTERESTED....

[jimmy white]

WHAT DO YOU EXACTLY CALL OVERCROWDING IN A LOFT, HAVE HEARD SOME SAY THEY NEED MORE ROOM TO BREATHE AND GET PLENTY OXYGEN, WOULD IT NOT BE THE CASE IF THEY WERE NOT GETTING ENOUGH OF EITHER THEY WOULD DIE, LAST SEASON WAS THE YEAR I HAD THE LEAST AMOUNT OF YOUNG BIRDS IN THE LOFT AND IT WAS THE YEAR I LOST THE MOST FROM THE LOFT, SO PERSONALLY I WOULD DISPUTE YOU LOSE BIRDS IF YOU HAVE TOO MANY, I DONT MEAN YOU HAVE THEM SITTING ON TOP OF ONE ANOTHER BECAUSE YOU HAVE THAT MANY, I JUST FEEL IF YOU HAVE AN INDIVIDUAL PERCH FOR EACH BIRD AND PLENTY FRESH AIR IT SHOULD BE OKAY

 

in my opinion tammy an overcrowded loft causes undue stress on the birds , and then the undue stress causes most of the probs,, but would agree with you on the fresh air bit , but personally i would rather have a few spare perches , really i would say it was getting the happy balance, but as with pigeons,,,theres allways exception to the rule   

[Guest]

what about them being poorly reared ,was the adults in the proper condition at copulation low sperm count happens in humans ,inadequate feeding ,poor quality of soft feeding all these factors come into play ,getting a freight in the loft ,or maybe the just wanted a wee change cause they did not like their owner .

[Guest]

Think you are confusing human and animal breeding practices terms, Roland.  

 

Incest is a purely human term, we put that taboo in place , not Nature.

 

Human beings are gregarious, it simply means a fondness of the company of our own kind. And Company up to the same point too ... don't tresspass within another humana being's personal space and don't wander into another's home without invite or invade the privacy of loft or garden etc.

 

Pigeons are so gregarious that they seize any trespasser on or around the eye ceres lift them bodily by the head and hurl them off the ledge. Human beings don't because we are not allowed to do that.

[Ronnie]

Could it be something as simple as bad birds?I mean  a gust of wind takes em 20 mile of the loft and there lost the good ones come home the not so good get lost.Also there out ranging and a hawk go's through the batch all of a sudden a bird that is used to flying with 20-30 of its flock is suddenly on its own and has to think were it lives instead of following the batch.The good ones think i live over there and come home the bad ones say i dunno where i am i will just fly and see where i end up.exscuse the spelling and the simple terms.I just think maybe we tend to look for  the more complicated reason's instead of taking the obvious out of the equasion first.

[pigeonscout]

  Roland my brother,

Flyaways are usually the result of hurried training while getting the squeaks in the air. Change your management techniques and your flyaway numbers will be reduced.

As far as inbreeding,if used in the correct way for the right reasons it will enhance the quality of the strain of birds by reinforcing the genes already in the bird. Same as getting a double shot of blue to make a blue spread bird. You just cant see them but they is there. Conversely, the "bad " genes can be re inforced as well. This is why one would need to carefully proceed along these lines and cull the inbred line with more care and caution than an cross line. Always make your decisions based on performance of the bird before proceeding.

jmho

v99

 

I agree with what you say 100%

 

[Roland]

  Roland my brother,

Flyaways are usually the result of hurried training while getting the squeaks in the air. Change your management techniques and your flyaway numbers will be reduced.

As far as inbreeding,if used in the correct way for the right reasons it will enhance the quality of the strain of birds by reinforcing the genes already in the bird. Same as getting a double shot of blue to make a blue spread bird. You just cant see them but they is there. Conversely, the "bad " genes can be re inforced as well. This is why one would need to carefully proceed along these lines and cull the inbred line with more care and caution than an cross line. Always make your decisions based on performance of the bird before proceeding.

jmho

v99

 

Didn't realise I had flyaway Velo, thanks, yes the very few I loose are normally one or two every so often off the Top. Got hit by a Barnsley Fed this year when the y/b's were just over Roof Topping, and these were birds I had bought in. Yet 6 still returned over the next few weeks. I have in a 16 box box carpartment just 9 pairs this season. It is only 4 foot by 4 five foot and nearly 7 foot high. Plenty of space, oozles of fresh circulating air.

So how many pairs roosting in a Tree would be over crowding?

 

 

 

[yearling]

hi all a good few yrs ago i lost my whole ybird team in one hit {30},they had been trained well and was very fit running for hours,i know this coz they where up and down the valley below the house.

one evening they wear out and  a few ballons came over ,they just started getting higher and higher and further awat too.

to this day i have not heard of any of them,none reported anywhere,just dissapeared.

[gangster]

THAT MUST HAVE BEEN DEVASTATING CHRIST THE LOT GONE IN 1 HIT.................

[yearling]

the lads at the club bailed me out with  a few later bred birds,atleast i didnt have a gap the following years.

a mate once said THEY ARE YOURS WHILST IN THE LOFT,BUT ANYONES WHILST OUTSIDE

[REDCHEQHEN]

Just realise my post when into the quote lol...

 

Didn't realise I had flyaway Velo, thanks, yes the very few I loose are normally one or two every so often off the Top. Got hit by a Barnsley Fed this year when the y/b's were just over Roof Topping, and these were birds I had bought in. Yet 6 still returned over the next few weeks. I have in a 16 box box carpartment just 9 pairs this season. It is only 4 foot by 4 five foot and nearly 7 foot high. Plenty of space, oozles of fresh circulating air.

So how many pairs roosting in a Tree would be over crowding?

v99

 

How can you fit that many boxes in such a small space?

We have 8 boxes in a 4'6" x 6' x 7' space  and think that is too many boxes

(the 8 )  :-/

[Guest TAMMY_1]

 

How can you fit that many boxes in such a small space?

We have 8 boxes in a 4'6" x 6' x 7' space  and think that is too many boxes

(the 8 )  :-/

 

YOU HAVE TO REALISE THAT SOMETIMES ROLAND EXAGERATES A WEE BIT AND DOES NOT REALISE HE IS DOING SO  ;D

[Roland]

Lol, Tamy you'll be saying Scotland qualified for the world Cup more than once yet lol! I will HAVE photo and show you, hopefully to - day .... the other section same size practically has 16 boxes. I have air that actually has to circulate, a wire mesh roof, and air vents as a wall. They are ALWAYS a picture of healthy. - Not counting the set back 218 months back when I was hit big time via 3/4 different combinations.  The result was their constitution being flayed and nothing to do with Health and condition as such.

I posted here not long back how a loft should be.

[velo99]

I agree Roland.

Ventilation is a key element in the health of your birds. Mine is just this side of being drafty. 2`x2` wire covered hole in floor and soffet vents in the top bring a nice circulation. When the floor gets a little damp it doesn`t stay like that long.

Only trouble I have is when it stays cold and the droppings freeze. Disgusting mess they make.

 

v99

[Guest TAMMY_1]

Didn't realise I had flyaway Velo, thanks, yes the very few I loose are normally one or two every so often off the Top. Got hit by a Barnsley Fed this year when the y/b's were just over Roof Topping, and these were birds I had bought in. Yet 6 still returned over the next few weeks. I have in a 16 box box carpartment just 9 pairs this season. It is only 4 foot by 4 five foot and nearly 7 foot high. Plenty of space, oozles of fresh circulating air.

So how many pairs roosting in a Tree would be over crowding?

v99

 

IS IT A BIG TREE OR A SMALL ONE ROLAND  ;D ;D

[Roland]

Just a wee one, like 12 foot high and 16 foot long lol

[Roland]

Think you are confusing human and animal breeding practices terms, Roland.  

 

Incest is a purely human term, we put that taboo in place , not Nature.

 

Human beings are gregarious, it simply means a fondness of the company of our own kind. And Company up to the same point too ... don't tresspass within another humana being's personal space and don't wander into another's home without invite or invade the privacy of loft or garden etc.

 

Pigeons are so gregarious that they seize any trespasser on or around the eye ceres lift them bodily by the head and hurl them off the ledge. Human beings don't because we are not allowed to do that.

 

 

Not so Bruno, lions take over and cull... fish change I.e males stay and females move on... Guppys are born, like their young , pregnant. Why the indeed show where nature hasn't put these salf guards into place... Humans  bend it, but Nature plays the part to make it very improbably and then due to interferance. Bats Rape,

That's why they have Harems and them an Outsider takes over to service the young.

[Roland]

You can't put in what is not there. Further it is the OUTCROSS that normally the buisness.

[Wiley]

i believe over crowding is the main problem with fly aways, it happens with rock doves, when the places get highly crowded they fly off to over areas to find better nesting sites

[Guest TAMMY_1]

Just a wee one, like 12 foot high and 16 foot long lol

 

Think you would get 30 pairs in here nae problem Roland and they would have an abundance of fresh air, but a touch draughty