Albear Posted November 12, 2009 Report Share Posted November 12, 2009 Roland I'm off to bed now, not time to read your post cause their alwyas ful of good stuff and thought provoking, hopefully reply in the morning, cheers Butty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest slugmonkey Posted November 12, 2009 Report Share Posted November 12, 2009 I fly all of my yearlings on the 600 I was told this was stupid and was laughed at except by 1 guy Bill Bonwell he told these guys it would be funny then but wait about 2 or 3 years and it wouldnt be so funny well guess what, he was right I send all my yearling birds that distance they often out perform my older birds my triple crown bird was a yearling ( 2 x 500, 1 x 600 ) this insures that homing ability isnt lost in my birds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted November 12, 2009 Report Share Posted November 12, 2009 I fly all of my yearlings on the 600 I was told this was stupid and was laughed at except by 1 guy Bill Bonwell he told these guys it would be funny then but wait about 2 or 3 years and it wouldnt be so funny well guess what, he was right I send all my yearling birds that distance they often out perform my older birds my triple crown bird was a yearling ( 2 x 500, 1 x 600 ) this insures that homing ability isnt lost in my birds Good post, and reality. Remember the Fed banning us from flying the Shetlands with yearlings, to Lerwick. I don't know whether this has been recinded, but somehow I don't think so. The master sorter was able to do his job. The one 'Mr Basket' discarded were general proven poor stuff. Strange how an established loft can trace back to the birds that weren't molly coddled and the numbers - out side of 'Selling Merchants' are kept to relatively small. Give Mr Basket some fit and healthy birds and allow him to do his job I say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albear Posted November 12, 2009 Report Share Posted November 12, 2009 Quote '..........I think this is another interesting point, I like others have quoted some performances, and Terry and Roland believe most birds can do 500. Now I don't agree and I'll tell you why put simply waht does the average small team man breed a year 30 the majority of ordinary back garden fanciers wil breed between 30/50 for racing. Tell me out of those 30/50 how many get past 300 mile, and how many manage to get to 500. How many birds do you send to sprint races 10, 20? How many make it to 500 2/3, statistically it shows that not many birdss fly 500. I believe what Albear says has bearing of course. Now, as Albear and most will remember and state, is that back 30 - 40 years, and definitely before, a back garden loft house 10 pairs. A big 'Mob flyer then lol' flew 24 and these went nigh every race and these fanciers did the whole programme. The latecomers were mostly there next morning on the loft, at least during the week. Few strays compared to today of course. This was when there were 140.000 flyers. Yes the 34000 fanciers send more birds today, fill more churches and though they somehow afford to keep, can't afford to lose their birds. It was via the Fanciers being gullible and easily led that the Railways became defunct as a means of racing. These that promised ‘Training and racing by Road was better and they WOULD train the club birds etc. etc. Yes they did for a season or so … till the ‘Lads’ could put them on the trains etc. Then it was ‘Pie in the Sky’ and they quickly forgot. These same 'Leaders' exploited then as now the masses to further and bolster their own coffers. They wanted 'so called Sprinters and middle distance races in order to race 2 - 3 times a week and make money. The grass routes were conned into think 'Mid Week' races were a better way or tossing - a Darn site dearer too! So the 'Systems were changed, altered to suit so called sprint birds. And gradually distances races took a back seat. Now further and further, even if all strains, regardless of distance intend are hatched so to speak from genuine Distance birds…. Or birds that have done it! I will openly admit that until recently I only ever had and flew 'Cast Offs' and others 'Culls'. Yes simply because I couldn't - like so many today - I was raising kids and a family (or two lol). Yet I was able to have 'Homers' from all race points and was there on hard and distance races, having the odd swallow or two.. If I could have afforded proper feeding and training etc. who knows I may have excelled, or ruin the system of 'Content and Fully Natural' flying completely. Was is it that many don't send to the distance and try? :-/ Well one is the adage excuse of not wanting to hang around in the evening or be up early next day syndrome. The other is they bought so-called 'Sprinters' that 'WON'T do the distance. Well they won't if not sent and that's for sure. Also why do the 'Location' boys have so called middle distance strains :-/ So they can steal a march on these contrived 'Mid Day' releases where they are held up at the channel so they can pop over first thing and time in whereas some are doing on tired wings, cold and damp after the water and fly another 2 - 300 miles :-/ then have the cheek to say they 'Flew the Distance' Races. Louth etc. flying against the inland lads, the Welsh cracks etc. and claiming the ‘Distance’ prizes! A joke, but that is another reason whilst the 'Distance’ races lost their applause and interest. Then they spread the Sections to bolster thei’ own coffers. Hopefully we will be flying club races sent again by the NRCC. Perhaps a few more will join again Certainly won't to fly against the East coast club elite and that's for sure. Just a good section merit would do wonders. Just a little more of a leveller of sections perhaps? It certainly wouldn’t go amiss. Indeed the whole cahoots of sections want altering and corridor against or with the Winds Points. I.e. Westerly! But that’s another topic. But as for the birds today, well they are certainly ALL capable of 500 milers; I believe that 500 miles is really in real terms at the end of 'Middle Distance'! Yep don't disagree with you Rolly, we could never send Yearlings to Lerwick in Wales either, I asume that is still the same? Tarbes it is allowed though but Barcelona a nono Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
demolition man Posted November 12, 2009 Report Share Posted November 12, 2009 i need to rephrase this when handling a potential 500 mile pigeon what would you look for Many moons ago i work as a steward at the Great London Auctions with the late great Frank Hall i handled many a good distance bird they came in many shapes and sizes so i think its each to his/her own type, So at the end of the day its what you like. Regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest slugmonkey Posted November 12, 2009 Report Share Posted November 12, 2009 This post is going mildly off topic for a while but I got a guy in my club who has bought some decent birds on the net he is now in the bussiness of selling birds which is fine BUT I aint sure how he is doing it .... he is VERY arrogant and acts as if his birds are so valuable that he will only race them if the conditions are good him and his cronies have somehow managed to get a very easy schedule this year with 3 x 100 mile races and 1 x 150 THIS IS HALF OF OUR SCHEDULE... we had a tough 200 mile race and he wouldnt ship and also complained that the race sec ( me ) was purposely trying to lose birds from the other guys so I could win more this guy is a GOOD sprint racer and has been trying for 3 years to take all 50 positions on the 100 mile races he has nearly succeded 3 times except for 1 thing I have slipped a couple in on him twice and my nephew ( 10 years old with my birds ) has managed to stave him off once this year !!! which I will have to say that putting 48 birds in the clock out front in under a minute is pretty impressive I would have to also look at the longer races AND loft position oh yeah I might have forgot to mention that this guy has 10 miles of overfly on me and 19 on my nephew he wont race old birds because he says theres no money in it which in our club there is no money in any of the races except the auction race ( which I took the first 7 positions at 250 miles ) so this dosent really hold water either he is saying that YBs because of the futuritys should be the only racing that matters and yet to my knowledge he hasnt raced any futurities either ??? and yet he is still selling pigeons HOW ???? we have had 2 really tough races in the last 2 years a 350 which I had 19 of 30 day birds ( I come home from driving the race and found my clock unplugged so I just started grabbing birds and clocking but still managed to win 1 race ) and a 200 this year with less than one third of the guys getting day birds on both races and I had 4 out of the 6 that came home with 2 of them on the drop on the B race we had a terrible OB season with over half of the races having severe headwinds or rain over half the club lost enough birds that they couldnt finish the season I started with 60 and wound up with 42 I also have won average speed for the last 4 ?? years I think and loft of the year and best OB of the year and YB two times I also have put birds in the money at 2 large futurity races putting 2 out of 3 in the cash at World Ace Challenge AND YET I cant give birds away I guess my point is this LOOK CLOSELY AT ALL RESULTS AS SOMETIMES THE WHOLE STORY ISNT TOLD !!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albear Posted November 12, 2009 Report Share Posted November 12, 2009 Many moons ago i work as a steward at the Great London Auctions with the late great Frank Hall i handled many a good distance bird they came in many shapes and sizes so i think its each to his/her own type, So at the end of the day its what you like. Regards That must have been a great job, Frank Hall I understand was a top guy. I know what you're saying, I would like to just change the wording and say at the end of the day you'll like what comes, whereas you may not have before you sent it!? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest slugmonkey Posted November 12, 2009 Report Share Posted November 12, 2009 That must have been a great job, Frank Hall I understand was a top guy. I know what you're saying, I would like to just change the wording and say at the end of the day you'll like what comes, whereas you may not have before you sent it!? I agree another case for basket culling !!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest slugmonkey Posted November 12, 2009 Report Share Posted November 12, 2009 Quote '..........I think this is another interesting point, I like others have quoted some performances, and Terry and Roland believe most birds can do 500. Now I don't agree and I'll tell you why put simply waht does the average small team man breed a year 30 the majority of ordinary back garden fanciers wil breed between 30/50 for racing. Tell me out of those 30/50 how many get past 300 mile, and how many manage to get to 500. How many birds do you send to sprint races 10, 20? How many make it to 500 2/3, statistically it shows that not many birdss fly 500. I believe what Albear says has bearing of course. Now, as Albear and most will remember and state, is that back 30 - 40 years, and definitely before, a back garden loft house 10 pairs. A big 'Mob flyer then lol' flew 24 and these went nigh every race and these fanciers did the whole programme. The latecomers were mostly there next morning on the loft, at least during the week. Few strays compared to today of course. This was when there were 140.000 flyers. Yes the 34000 fanciers send more birds today, fill more churches and though they somehow afford to keep, can't afford to lose their birds. It was via the Fanciers being gullible and easily led that the Railways became defunct as a means of racing. These that promised ‘Training and racing by Road was better and they WOULD train the club birds etc. etc. Yes they did for a season or so … till the ‘Lads’ could put them on the trains etc. Then it was ‘Pie in the Sky’ and they quickly forgot. These same 'Leaders' exploited then as now the masses to further and bolster their own coffers. They wanted 'so called Sprinters and middle distance races in order to race 2 - 3 times a week and make money. The grass routes were conned into think 'Mid Week' races were a better way or tossing - a Darn site dearer too! So the 'Systems were changed, altered to suit so called sprint birds. And gradually distances races took a back seat. Now further and further, even if all strains, regardless of distance intend are hatched so to speak from genuine Distance birds…. Or birds that have done it! I will openly admit that until recently I only ever had and flew 'Cast Offs' and others 'Culls'. Yes simply because I couldn't - like so many today - I was raising kids and a family (or two lol). Yet I was able to have 'Homers' from all race points and was there on hard and distance races, having the odd swallow or two.. If I could have afforded proper feeding and training etc. who knows I may have excelled, or ruin the system of 'Content and Fully Natural' flying completely. Was is it that many don't send to the distance and try? :-/ Well one is the adage excuse of not wanting to hang around in the evening or be up early next day syndrome. The other is they bought so-called 'Sprinters' that 'WON'T do the distance. Well they won't if not sent and that's for sure. Also why do the 'Location' boys have so called middle distance strains :-/ So they can steal a march on these contrived 'Mid Day' releases where they are held up at the channel so they can pop over first thing and time in whereas some are doing on tired wings, cold and damp after the water and fly another 2 - 300 miles :-/ then have the cheek to say they 'Flew the Distance' Races. Louth etc. flying against the inland lads, the Welsh cracks etc. and claiming the ‘Distance’ prizes! A joke, but that is another reason whilst the 'Distance’ races lost their applause and interest. Then they spread the Sections to bolster thei’ own coffers. Hopefully we will be flying club races sent again by the NRCC. Perhaps a few more will join again Certainly won't to fly against the East coast club elite and that's for sure. Just a good section merit would do wonders. Just a little more of a leveller of sections perhaps? It certainly wouldn’t go amiss. Indeed the whole cahoots of sections want altering and corridor against or with the Winds Points. I.e. Westerly! But that’s another topic. But as for the birds today, well they are certainly ALL capable of 500 milers; I believe that 500 miles is really in real terms at the end of 'Middle Distance'! I think about 85% of birds are capable of 500 miles I just dont belive the normal flyer is feeding to get his birds home from there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albear Posted November 12, 2009 Report Share Posted November 12, 2009 I think about 85% of birds are capable of 500 miles I just dont belive the normal flyer is feeding to get his birds home from there This has been said several times, in my opinion this is an old wives tale too. The reality is if a bird is not genetically capable of flying 500 mile you can feed it caviar and it won't do it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albear Posted November 12, 2009 Report Share Posted November 12, 2009 I think about 85% of birds are capable of 500 miles I just dont belive the normal flyer is feeding to get his birds home from there This has been said several times, in my opinion this is an old wives tale too. The reality is if a bird is not genetically capable of flying 500 mile you can feed it caviar and it won't do it! And I disagree with 85%, look at any 500 mile race in your clubs, feds, rarely are there 85% timed in and those birds that have gone to 500 mile are the cream of mos lofts , they've already lost 70% of the loft before thy hit 500 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest slugmonkey Posted November 12, 2009 Report Share Posted November 12, 2009 I think about 85% of birds are capable of 500 miles I just dont belive the normal flyer is feeding to get his birds home from there This has been said several times, in my opinion this is an old wives tale too. The reality is if a bird is not genetically capable of flying 500 mile you can feed it caviar and it won't do it! thats why I fly all of them 600 to get rid of the ones that arent capable of it most years I send the whole team on the 5s for 2 reasons the average guy is holding birds back on these races which means there are more points avaible on the race and the second is the 500 has a lot of points on our national ranking system and if a bird is going to be a national champion he has to have the miles and points Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albear Posted November 12, 2009 Report Share Posted November 12, 2009 I think about 85% of birds are capable of 500 miles I just dont belive the normal flyer is feeding to get his birds home from there This has been said several times, in my opinion this is an old wives tale too. The reality is if a bird is not genetically capable of flying 500 mile you can feed it caviar and it won't do it! thats why I fly all of them 600 to get rid of the ones that arent capable of it most years I send the whole team on the 5s for 2 reasons the average guy is holding birds back on these races which means there are more points avaible on the race and the second is the 500 has a lot of points on our national ranking system and if a bird is going to be a national champion he has to have the miles and points Yes and you are the rare exception and well done! Again wish I had your birds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigeonpete Posted November 12, 2009 Report Share Posted November 12, 2009 slugmonkey, you have got some amazing birds, as from my limited experience, after 300 some start to fall by the wayside. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest slugmonkey Posted November 12, 2009 Report Share Posted November 12, 2009 another reason is that you can makeup/add a lot of time on average speed on the 5s I think we dont discuss seasonal strategy much on here maybe we should sometimes I think a lot of guys just send birds hoping the year will be a good one instead of planning fo things like loft of the year and average speed ??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest slugmonkey Posted November 12, 2009 Report Share Posted November 12, 2009 slugmonkey, you have got some amazing birds, as from my limited experience, after 300 some start to fall by the wayside. Thank you but I have lost a lot of birds and some GOOD ones along the way last year I lost 5 Elite Registered A.U. Champions a guy told me he would have stopped sending after he lost the 1st I told him that I now have 12 that I know will do the job I am breeding winners off these bids now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted November 12, 2009 Report Share Posted November 12, 2009 Yes, of course any bird will and can fly 500 miles if it wants to. If it doesn't it won't, and maybe some haven't the mind set or urgency to do so as quick as others do and it might. A second chance or whatever you decide.... Let Mr Basket have a say again, and again till the truth smacks you in the face. They can and will shape up, or won't. Homers become 'Racers' ummm a bit sceptical my self there. However I feel a valid point here is 'What distance do you wish to fly'? So as most agree systems and feeding are different why does one feed, have a system geared for all distances and types of races :-/ If I wish to start racing at 450 miles, why would I A. bother outside of expience and fitness / mind set send them. I wouldn't. Yep make get the odd swallow and win a few even, but that must be regarded as a bonus surely! So now I have contented and fit, healthy birds motivated to do certain races, yes at 450 onwards, if Mr Baskets sends them to another hotel so what! No good for me anyway! So withing say 3 years I'd have birds that wish, and are capable of doing the chores i want doing. Yes I don't mind them being in a 5 star hotel where I wait on them hand and foot! But believe you believe me, the sooner any birds are content with doing just that one simple thing for me, after all the sweat, cleaning and medical cares and top feed etc. etc, then the quicker they bugger off the better eh! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted November 12, 2009 Report Share Posted November 12, 2009 Another thing I think is correct and that's 'The quicker you become prepare to lose birds, the better your loft becomes, and quicker at that. Of course one must be prepared everytime to lose a afvourite. THEN and only then will one send their so - called Best to do the job in hand ... instead of making excuses etc. like putting to stock blah blah. they must go and prove the metal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stb- Posted November 12, 2009 Report Share Posted November 12, 2009 Another thing I think is correct and that's 'The quicker you become prepare to lose birds, the better your loft becomes, and quicker at that. Of course one must be prepared everytime to lose a afvourite. THEN and only then will one send their so - called Best to do the job in hand ... instead of making excuses etc. like putting to stock blah blah. they must go and prove the metal. Roland is yor name JK Rowling, :P youve writtrn more chapters than Harry Potter ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albear Posted November 12, 2009 Report Share Posted November 12, 2009 I fed last year exactly the same all the way through, the first 3 NFC races to me were under 300 mile with only Tarbes at 556 miles, I had a poor tarbes being 18th section, but at the end of the four races I was 10th in the section averages and my feed was geared for long distance racing not 200/300 mile sprints, I think too much emphasis is put on type of food , far beter to get the balance right in amount of food. Slugmonkey I think we have a problem here in comparing like with like in terms of race environment, I can be living only 60/70 mile away from another loft in this country but racing conditions and environment are totally different. Whereas I think it is of great interest how you race. I think your local conditions are likely to be completley different to ours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albear Posted November 12, 2009 Report Share Posted November 12, 2009 Roland is yor name JK Rowling, :P youve writtrn more chapters than Harry Potter ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Just cause he looks like Dumbledore , hey and no quips about me being Hagrid, Roly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted November 12, 2009 Report Share Posted November 12, 2009 Nah Hagrid would be good looking compare to you lol ;D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delboy Posted November 12, 2009 Report Share Posted November 12, 2009 Been reading this thread with interest and I believe you all have missed a very important point. LOCATION can determine the percentage of pigeons capable of flying 500 mls. Here in Britain, if you lie on the east side of the country then I feel getting pigeons from the distance races is slightly easier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clyde Posted November 12, 2009 Report Share Posted November 12, 2009 Been reading this thread with interest and I believe you all have missed a very important point. LOCATION can determine the percentage of pigeons capable of flying 500 mls. Here in Britain, if you lie on the east side of the country then I feel getting pigeons from the distance races is slightly easier. Your are right del boy it does make a difference. But in the young bird national this year west section birds were off the pace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albear Posted November 12, 2009 Report Share Posted November 12, 2009 Nah Hagrid would be good looking compare to you lol ;D :P :P ;D ;D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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