AVIAN FLU

[Guest]

I'm not sure I know what you are saying, Speedbird. If you want to raise a specific question about pigeons and avian flu, why not put that question direct to the Channel 4 News Special on Avian Flu at news@channel4.com ? You might get your answer on TV on Wednesday night.

[bill_bennie]

Speedbird is this what your looking for. This is from Canada.

 

Messages

Gord Chalmers

Veterinarian

 

 

Gender: Male

Location: Lethbridge, Alberta

Registered: Feb 2003

Status: Offline

Posts: 217

       

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Posted Thursday, August 4, 2005 @ 02:28 PM  

 

Folks: In the past there have been some unfounded public concerns about the role of pigeons in Avian Influenza. Most of the facts showing that pigeons are not involved in the spread of this disease have been presented earlier in an article in several pigeon magazines. However concerns about the role of pigeons re-surfaced this past year after Thai newspapers reported that a number of children in one school were affected with Influenza and that about 400 nearby pigeons either died of Influenza or were killed (facts on these points are still elusive). To clarify this situation, as recently as July '05 I have been in contact with Dr David Swayne, Laboratory Director, Southeast Poultry Research Laboratory, USDA/ARS, Athens, Georgia, USA. He has worked with the virus from Thailand and has provided the following important information, quote:

"Dr. Erhardt Kaleta (Germany) recently published a review of Avian Influenza (AI) in pigeons and concluded, as I also believe, that pigeons are resistant to avian influenza viruses and have not been a reservoir or vector of the virus. Other studies have supported the resistance of pigeons to AI virus infections. Some people have confused die-offs in pigeons to avian influenza when paramyxovirus type 1 is a common cause of neurological disease and death in pigeons, and not avian influenza.

We have conducted experimental studies in pigeons using viruses isolated from dead pigeons in Thailand. Even direct inoculation of these viruses into nasal cavity of pigeons caused limited infections with between 60-80% of the pigeons not becoming infected. This suggests the mortality from H5N1 Highly Pathogenic AI virus in pigeons may have resulted from synergy (meaning a combined effect) between AI infection and some other pathogen.

 

The "illness in school children" is an unsubstantiated rumor. No AI virus was isolated from the children and I am unaware of any evidence of infection.

 

With this scientific information, it is unlikely that banning pigeons will have any impact on AI ecology and will not reduce the risk AI infections of poultry or humans. The primary species that have natural infections with AI viruses are wild ducks and shorebirds (turnstones, gulls, etc.). Columbiformes (pigeons) and passerines (generally, songbirds) are not reservoirs and they are rarely incidental hosts following spill-over of the viruses from infected domestic poultry." Unquote.

 

 

[speedbird]

spot on bill

[Guest]

Speedbird, this is a summary from information already on this forum, about pigeons and the avian flu virus.  Please pay particular attention to the year where highlighted.

 

(1) Your ‘spot on’ response was to Bill’s third repeat of this information: see posts 11 of 25th August & 46 of 29th August.

 

(2) Extract from a scientific study: post 51 of 29th August.

 

“In the Hong Kong Outbreak of 2002, H5N1 was isolated from a dead feral pigeon.”

 

 

Because the information in posts 11/46 and 51 conflicted and confused, I agreed to email G Chalmers for guidance. Post 60 of 30th August: extract.

 

Avian Pathology 1996: Research looking for Avian Flu virus in feral pigeons in Mexico, none found.

 

..In the space of 8 years, the virus has perhaps acquired a mutated capability of at least being able to ‘survive’ the passage through a pigeon. Your letter (the Thailand pigeons)  shows in 2005 there is now the possibility of finding live virus in pigeons where none appeared to exist before.

 

 

(3) G Chalmers reply : post 69 of 30th August: extract

 

“My point … was to give pigeon fanciers some information that I had obtained from one of the world's researchers to try to provide for them, some level of reassurance that pigeons appear to be a lesser evil than species of shore birds and wild waterfowl in the dissemination of Avian flu.

 

I wanted to try to provide some balance on the role of pigeons in this disease. In reality, absolute certainty that pigeons are not involved in Avian flu does not seem to be possible, and given the tendency of this agent to mutate, I would be loathe to discount pigeons entirely.

 

Dr Panigrahy felt that, while pigeons generally seem to be resistant to strains of Avian flu virus, it was possible for them to be mechanical carriers (on their feathers) in the right circumstances. Hence this is a risk that can't be overlooked. “

 

 

(4) G Chalmers supplied Swayne & Parker’s 2002 research. Post 82 of 1st September extract:

 

“Couldn’t start infection in pigeons using virus from 1997 Hong Kong outbreak ..could only infrequently find the virus in the bird, concluded pigeons were largely resistant to the disease.”

 

(5) Bill’s latest post 190 of 11th October.

 

… concerns about the role of pigeons re-surfaced in 2005… after Thai newspapers reported that ……about 400 nearby pigeons either died of Avian flu or were killed (facts on these points are still elusive).

 

We have conducted experimental studies in pigeons using viruses isolated from dead pigeons in Thailand in 2005. Even direct inoculation of these viruses into nasal cavity of pigeons caused limited infections with between 60-80% of the pigeons not becoming infected.

 

(That also means 20%-40% of pigeons did become infected, a move from finding 0% infections to 20% (min) infections within 10 years.)

 

 

(6) I posted DEFRA Contingency plan post 94 on 3rd September. Extract:

 

“If Avian flu were ever confirmed in RACING PIGEONS, then slaughter, premises and area movement controls could be put into place if a veterinary risk assessment concluded that there was a risk of disease spreading to commercial poultry”.

 

 

If through your own ignorance you allow your birds to become infected, or your birds are found to be carrying the virus, they will be slaughtered – all of them whether carrying, infected, or clear of the virus. If they've got the virus, there's a pretty good chance that you've got it too - and everyone else unfortunate enough to have been in contact with you. I can’t spell it out any clearer than that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[bill_bennie]

Bruno, we must commend you for the summary.

I sincerly Thank You, and I thought I was on top of this,,,boy was I wrong!

Keep up the good work.

 

Yours in the Sport - Bill.

[preston powerblast]

Technical Bulletin: Avian Influenza Threat in Europe Highlights the Role of Effective Biosecurity

 

Amid fears that wild birds migrating from Russia to Europe could spread the lethal Avian Influenza H5N1 virus westwards, the veterinary authorities in The Netherlands and Germany are taking action to confine thousands of birds indoors to prevent mixing with potentially infected wild birds.

 

During the devastating Dutch Avian Influenza outbreak of 2003, the Dutch veterinary authority (The RVV) instigated tough biosecurity measures to bring the crisis under control.world leaders in veterinary biosecurity, recommend that poultry producers across Europe take precautions now to help prevent further catastrophic outbreaks of Avian Influenza by setting-up effective biosecurity measures.

Poultry producers should ensure that their biosecurity measures are vigilantly enforced and include:

 

- Effective perimeter control

- Transport biosecurity - wheel dips and sprays

- Foot dips

- Hand washing and protective clothing

- Avoiding stock coming into contact with wild birds

- Thorough cleaning of poultry houses with a heavy duty multipurpose cleanser

Most importantly, regular, thorough and effective disinfection of poultry houses - the Avian Influenza virus survives well in water so simple washing with water alone may assist transmission.

Leading poultry veterinarian, Stephen Lister BVetMed MRCVS, recommends that poultry producers and governments maintain their guard and a high state of preparation with the threat of new outbreaks of Avian Influenza. "A cornerstone of preparation against Avian Influenza must be to maintain a constant state of vigilance against the disease. Control protocols for this highly contagious disease should be based on sound and effective continuous biosecurity appropriately applied. Emergency Disease Control strategies must be a priority for governments and poultry producers internationally."

 

To ensure regulatory compliance in your country please read all product labels carefully.

 

THIS IS A BULLETIN FROM OUR CHEMICAL SUPPLIER.

 

But still no further updates from DEFRA.

 

 

[Guest]

ROMANIA

 

Part of the problem with relying upon the media is conflicting / confusing information you can get there. Wednesday 12th October, BBC 1pm News had a 2 second strap: Romania clear of Bird Flu. Today BBC News24 has an hourly report with footage: ROMANIAN BIRD FLU CONFIRMED.

 

The footage is particularly worrying as it shows, in my opinion, gross incompetence in the staff there carrying out the culls: they are handling the poultry bare-handed. Would expect to hear of human infections there. If this happens (hope it doesn't) posting this note will give us all a clue on exposure (30th Sep) /incubation / disease times.

 

As posted earlier: Usual response: EU have banned poultry imports from Romania. No mention of EU aid or assistance to try and contain the outbreak in / to Romania.

 

Currently, no information on WHO website about Romania.

 

[Guest Silverwings]

wonder if this avian flu bug will have an efect on blackpool this year ? the same applies to all the auctions going on around the country ,under the circumstances i would epect the R.P.R.A to impose restrictions the continental imports at least ? it would not do the pigeon world any favours , should the source of infection be down to us !

[Guest]

Echo my personal view, Silverwings.  

 

Unfortunately, none of the Unions are taking any lead or initiative in this and are waiting to be told what to do by DEFRA - part of a UK government machine that is at least a year behind the virus; doesn't have any free-range birds confined (cause too much upheaval); and doesn't have sufficient antiviral drugs or hospital facilities to treat a big outbreak. Oh, and there's no vaccine to combat it either.

 

Apart from these pidlin' concerns, everything's fine and just carry on regardless.

[jimmy white]

some concern now ,did you see all the news on tv tonight ,its exactly what you say bruno, only you said it weeks ago, about keeping birds in , boot cleaning etc

i maybe give and take a bit laugh on not so serious things, but have to say i take my hat of to you on this subject youve dug up some really informative posts   allong with others off course, but we can all learn a lot from all these posts, and hopefully  act   accordingly  

[PIGEON_MAN]

SATURDAY NIGHT ON THE RADIO AT 10.00 I THINK, THERE,S A PROGRAMME CHAIRED BY A JAMES WHALE WHICH IS GOING TO BE TALKING ABOUT AVIAN FLU,LOTS OF SO CALLED EXPERTS ALSO APPEARING SHOULD BE WORTH LISTENING TO,YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO PICK IT UP ON 1053 OR 1089 A.M.DEPENDING IN WHICH PART OF THE COUNTRY YOU ARE.THE STATION IS ACTUALLY CALLED "TALK SPORT"COULD BE ON ANOTHER FREQUENCY IN SCOTLAND.

[preston powerblast]

It just goes to show that people in the Uk are are taking the Avian Flu scare a lot more serious than the Government are.

Sales in this country of Tamiflu have soared and a lot of uk suppliers have sold out at 68 pounds a pack.

[Guest]

Hi, Powerblast, picked up much the same story on mainland Europe - Serbia out, one big distributer also out. Taking Tamiflu now (before infection) will be as much use as a handbrake on a canoe. Its last line of defence stuff. Thanks to similar misuse of antivirals like it in South East Asia, H5N1 has become resistant to them. If it become resistant to Tamiflu, then there's no 'medical' last line of defence.

 

Thanks Jimmy. Some peoples out there actually believe we is sworn mortal emenies like the 'numpty of the universe' and 'skelingtor' cartoon characters on TV. Far from it. Best of internet friends. When we do finally meet James, pistols or swords?  

 

Seriously, please keep yourselves safe and take absolutely no chances.

[Guest]

REALLY WORRIESOME STUFF FROM VIETNAM

 

Human to human transmission, AND Tamiflu resistant H5N1

 

 

Story at:

 

http://avianflu.typepad.com/avianflu/2005/10/worrisome_news_.html

 

[Silverdale Lofts]

There is a article on pigeon paradise regarding avian flu which states pigeons wont be affected and wont be carriers

[AlanWilkins]

Welll might as well let you all know i WAS arranging a trip to Antwerp nexy year and ive now cancelled it due to the virus if it does break out my belgium contact has told me there will be no racing and no lier market there taking it serious over there

[GROVEHOMER]

THE LATEST NEWS IS THAT POULTRY KEEPERS IN THIS COUNTRY SHOULD PROTECT THEIR BIRDS FROM WILD BIRD CONTACT.

                                                     MY THOUGHT IS THIS, IF PIGEONS ARE VULNERABLE TO THIS VIRUS, SHOULDN'T WE BE SECURING OUR LOFTS FROM WILD BIRDS AND CONFINING OUR BIRDS?

                                            OTHER ADVICE FROM TOP VETS WAS THAT BIRD KEEPERS SHOULD TAKE PRECAUTIONS THAT WERE IN THE INTEREST OF THEMSELVES AND THEIR BIRDS....A BIT VAGUE!

                                     

[Guest]

I've been to the pigeonparadise site, and the last post there is from Gordon Chalmers advising them to confine the birds to the loft. He has picked up info of feral pigeons being culled in the current outbreak in Europe. A lot of wavering in that forum and I'm tempted to intervene, but P/Powerblast is already there and I would ask him to become our link with them: try and get them to lock up their birds.

 

I had one or two outstanding matters with Gordon which I managed to finalise today and email to him. It primarily concerns what I turned up in my "pigeons & H5N1 summary" for Speedbird. Much of the work the scientists are quoting their 'can't catch avian flu' conclusions from is out-of-date (it dates back to 2000, and the virus strain they used was A/HONGKONG/97 which couldn't punch its way out of a wet paper bag. It was stopped dead in Hong Kong in 1997.)

 

The current chappie A/HONGKONG/2002 is a real heavyweight, it broke out of Hong Kong in 2002 hasn't been stopped in 4 years and is now in Europe. Its the same "400 dead pigeons" virus that was used in the Thailand experiment and it DID infect 10%-20% of the pigeons in the experiments. But curiously, the scientists still concluded pigeons were resistant to it - WRONG!!! We've gone from 0 pigeons infections to between 1 in 10 and 1 in 20 pigeon infections inside 8 years. This chappie can definitely infect pigeons and pigeons are at risk if exposed to it..

 

No doubt in my mind what needs doing now. I stopped racing three weeks before the programme ended. My birds have been on lock-up since 27th August. I recommend you do the same, if you've not already done so. Better safe than sorry.

 

BEST WISHES & GOOD LUCK.

[jimmy white]

AGAIN I HAVE TO STICK UP FOR MY SPARRING PARTNER. ALLTHOUGH, YOUR CORRECT,GROVEHOMER, NONE OF US CANT SAY THAT BRUNO HAS REPEATED THIS WEEKS AGO, BEFORE IT APPEARED ON THE MEDIA NEWS, YOU JUST NEED TO LOOK BACK THE POSTS AND SEE, HES NOT TRYING TO FRIGHTEN ANYONE [ALLTHOUGH IT IS VERY FRIGHTENING] HES JUST DOING HIS DARNDIST TO INFORM ALL THE FORUM MEMBERS, THE LATEST NEWS AND LATEST ADVICE ETC AND I THINK WE REALLY ALL SHOULD BE GRATEFULL FOR THE TIME AND EFFORT, HES PUT IN TO THIS,AS BRUNO AND I KNOW WE CAN HAVE A LAUGH AT LESS IMPORTANT POSTS, BUT THIS IS A SERIOUS SUBJECT, AND REALLY HAS TO BE TREATED SO.

[Peckedhen]

Thanks for all your work here Bruno et al. I have read the whole thread today. Whilst I can't claim to understand it all (waiting for the Ladybird version ) I can see that it's time for all us 'ostriches' to confine our birds now, before it's too late.

[billy_g]

ian iv not been reading all the posts about avian flu as im sick to the back teeth of hearing about it , me being pure ignorant about it all have we in the uk had any people die from it as yet and have any pigeons been killed/ died from this disease, my way of thinking is if your times up tough sad i know but why keep planting seeds in peoples heads about avian flu if it comes to the uk it comes did we stop foot and mouth in the end we did all that is going to happen is we will need to stop racing or inland only again do we want that ,dont think so ask the national boys, as for me i know its a serious subject but lets stop planting the seeds in peoples heads it dont take much to start an epidemic sorry mate billy

[GROVEHOMER]

YES, THANKS BRUNO,

                            MY BIRDS ARE STAYING IN,  THERE'S  TOO MUCH AT RISK TO BE TAKING CHANCES.

                       I HOPE THIS ALL BLOWS OVER SOONER RATHER THAN LATER, BUT I WONT BE HOLDING MY BREATH!

[Guest]

Hi, Billy, sincerely hope that's the only way that avian flu ever makes you sick - hearing about it.  

 

You are correct that it doesn't take much to start an epidemic. Same token, doesn't take much to stop one happening either.

 

Bit of common sense really - just prepare for the worst, and hope for the best. Couldn't be simpler: lock up the pigeons, and keep away from the wild birds.  

 

 

 

 

 

[jimmy white]

deadly desease ,,,may just be weeks away from brittain     edin  evening news frid 14 oct,

call to vaccinate a million uk children against bird flu.

health cheifs say more than a million children in brittain must be vaccinated against flu as fears grow that a deadly avian form of the desease will arrive here in weeks.

cases of avian flu, which have devastated bird flocks in south east asia, now been confirmed in turkey, with romania also expected to follow.

a vaccination against avian flu is still about 12 months away, according to experts.

but the dep. of health said it was essential normal winter flu jabs were given to children with asthma or diabetes and to other high risk groups including the over 65 s and people with chronic illnesses. around 1.1 million children in brittain suffer from asthma and about 20,000 from diabetes.

although the the only human deaths from bird flu so far have been among people who had direct contact with infected birds,scientists fear the virus will mutate and could  then be spread from human to humans.

there have been 117 confirmed cases of bird flu among humans in s. e , asia, leading to 60 deaths.

the  "nightmare scenario" is that somone already suffering from ordinary flu could also to become infected with bird flu and as a "mixing vessel" in which the virus could adapt and spread more quickly.

there has been speculation such as a developement could lead to a pandemic and up to 50 million people worldwide could die.

last month the cheif medical officer for england, liam donaldson, said it was a "biological inevitability that an expected flu pandemic would seriously affect the health of people in this country.

he said contingency plans were looking at 50, 000 deaths in the uk from the pandemic.

around 14 million doses of flu vaccine are available on the nhs for older people and those with chronic conditions, but officials are anxious to improve on last years 71 p.c. uptake among vulnerable groups,.

david harper, cheif scientist at the dep, of health, said if avian flu did arrive in brittain officials would consider vaccinating poultry and farm workers against flu.

dr. debbie reynolds, the uk,s cheif vet ,officer, sought to calm fears by insisting there had been no reports of human flu outbreak in turkey.

but she said "it shows there is a risk to the uk and this is a developing situation, which we are monitoring closely"

samples of the infected birds from asiapart of turkey were taken to the vet. lab. agency [vla] in weybridge on wed. morn. and tested positive for the h5n1 virus yesterday.

tests on deseased birds in romania to see if they arecarrying the deadly strain are due out tomorrow.

philip todd, the european commisions health spokesman, urged people not to be "overly concerned" and said the authorities in turkey and romania were working hard to stopthe disease spreading. he said "so long as we can stamp out the disease rapidly we hope wecan get on top of thissituation quite quickly"

meanwhile, turkish officials put 9 people under medical observation today after reportsthat 40 pigeons in their neighbourhood had suddenly mysteriously died. in kiziksa, where the earlier deaths occurred, vet. officials in full body protection suits were working to cull the few remaining birds in the village.

HOW AVIAN FLU COULD CROSS OVR TO HUMANS,,,,,MIGRATORY BIRDS; VIRUS CARRIED IN BIRDS INTESTINES, THE BIRD DOES NOT ALLWAYS DEVELOPE AN INFECTION, BUT CAN PASS THE VIRUS ON TO DOMESTICATED FOWL.

DOMESTICATED FOWL; BIRDS EXCRETE THE VIRUS IN THEIR FAECES, WHICH DRIES AND BECOMES PULVERISED AND CAN THEN BE IN HALED.

CONTACT; SO FAR ONLY HUMANS LIVING IN CLOSE CONFINES WITH DISEASED BIRDS HAVE CONTRACTED THE VIRUS

NIGHTMARE SCENARIO; IF THE H5N1 VIRUS EXCHANGED GENES WITH A HUMAN FLU VIRUS THROUGH  A PERSON HAVING BOTH AT THE SAME TIME. THIS DEVELOPEMENT COULD RESULT IN A DEVASTATING PANDEMIC IN WHICH UP TO 50 MILLION PEOPLE WORLDWIDE COULD DIE.

SYMTOMS IN BIRDS; LOSS OF APPETITE, RUFFLED FEATHERS, FEVER, WEAKNESS, DIARRHOEA, EXCESSIVE THIRST AND SWELLING. IF THE STRAIN IS VIRULANT, MORTALITY RATE CAN RANGE BETWEEN 50 AND 100 P.C.

SYMTOMS IN HUMANS; FEVER, COUGH, SORE THROAT, MUSCLE ACHES, EYE INFECTIONS, PNEUMONIA, ACUTE RESPIRATORY DISTRESS AND VIRAL PNEUMONIA.

    FLU PANDEMICS; DEATHS;

    1998 SPANISH   20-40  M

    1997 ASIAN  1, M.

    1968 HONG CONG 700,000.

[jimmy white]

WE MAY [ OR WILL GET A VACCINE[ AGAINST THIS VIRUS, HOPEFULLY SOONER THAN LATER, IT HAS TO BE PROVEN THAT THE VACCINE WORKS, BUT THE CHEIF SCIENTISTS HAVENT YET SAID , THAT BURRYING YOUR HEAD IN THE SAND WORKS, SO I THINK WE CAN SAFELY RULE THAT ONE OUT