Paratyphoid! Can it be stopped?

[jimmy white]

i thank you larry most sincerely for your honest answer , and your most valuable and  interesting posts,, however  ;D [you will be calling me a pest now ;D] again with due respect , in reading of one of your recent postings on this subject,  could it be possible that by injecting with paramyxo vaccine  without changing the needles per bird , as a lot of fanciers do,, that this indeed could spread any paratyphoid that may be lurking ? then rather than say, since weve been vaccinating for paramyxo virus, weve found something amiss with the birds ,,it could be said that a lot of us have been injecting wrongly ,i,e by using the same needle too many times ,thus, spreading any paratyphoid that may be lurking ??

[Larry Lucas]

i thank you larry most sincerely for your honest answer , and your most valuable and  interesting posts,, however  ;D [you will be calling me a pest now ;D] again with due respect , in reading of one of your recent postings on this subject,  could it be possible that by injecting with paramyxo vaccine  without changing the needles per bird , as a lot of fanciers do,, that this indeed could spread any paratyphoid that may be lurking ? then rather than say, since weve been vaccinating for paramyxo virus, weve found something amiss with the birds ,,it could be said that a lot of us have been injecting wrongly ,i,e by using the same needle too many times ,thus, spreading any paratyphoid that may be lurking ??

 

Jimmy, you are quite right! Of course we all do this, don't we? I wipe the needle with a cotton ball drenched in alcohol between jabs or slosh it around in a container of alcohol between birds, but you are dead right -- it would be best to use a different needle with each bird. But the last time I vaccinated it was over 100 birds -- seemed to take forever.

[johnny11]

Hi Guys in mice it has been found by reducing immunoglobulin A (used in the immune system) salmonella will take hold and invade the system. by increasing the amount of IgA in the system you reduce the amount of salmonella in the gut. Therefore it seems to me that it is good practice to sterilise utensils especially the drinker with virkon s and then put as much pre and probiotics into your birsd as possible if you want to go down the "natural route"

 

cannot say IgA has a role in poultry but it does in mice.

 

Another thought on vaccination. A vaccine is virus specific ie will only attack what it had=s been vaccinated for. As two strains exist in pigeons should you not vaccinate with two vaccines????

 

John

[jimmy white]

 

Jimmy, you are quite right! Of course we all do this, don't we? I wipe the needle with a cotton ball drenched in alcohol between jabs or slosh it around in a container of alcohol between birds, but you are dead right -- it would be best to use a different needle with each bird. But the last time I vaccinated it was over 100 birds -- seemed to take forever.

 

brilliant ,,answer staring us in the face   thanks a lot larry

[Guest Vic]

 

brilliant ,,answer staring us in the face   thanks a lot larry

  Yes Jimmie! lol  

But Dr Larry knows what the game's all about. He's always there to help the pigeon flock out, on most issues, a talented man indeed.  But, Let's face it! These pigeon sicknesses are increasing as time goes on, baffling us all and the vets, who these days,  seem to have less of a clue than their veterinary  counterparts of yesteryear.  I have never seen so many conlficting views from all of us, on any one subject for quite some time. Although I'm not disrespecting any postings, I am sure you will see what Vic is getting at.

 

 

 

[jimmy white]

i most certainly do vic  

[Guest IB]

 

IB, that is the statement to me by the head avian veterinarian at the University of Minnesota. That is his observation about the matter in the USA and pigeons. Perhaps it is different in the UK, but I doubt it. I would grant that an exception might exist for someone who has eliminated the bacteria from his/her loft; keeps biohazard protocol; does not race; does not introduce new pigeons, and does not allow anyone into their lofts who keeps pigeons. If you race the bacteria will be introduced to your loft at some point -- but it is probably already there is a latent state. Unless someone develops a super pigeon, every loft will deal with cases of paratyphoid, herpes virus, adenovirus, etc., etc. if they race pigeons. Regarding your droppings test: such a test is better than nothing, but it will only show the bacteria when the birds are actually shedding the microorganism due to stress, other illness, etc. Post-mortem is much more accurate as is blood test when illness is evident.

 

I find it very odd that paratyphoid is a reportable disease in the UK as Salmonella typhimurium var. copenhagen is not transmittable to humans under normal circumstances. The association of avian veterinarians in the USA only notes one bacterium common to pigeons that holds significant potential to infect humans: Chlamydia. Certain avian flu viruses hold the potential, but it has been demonstrated by double blind studies at the University of California Davis that pigeons are not a good vector for most avian flu viruses. Perhaps you breed superbugs in the UK! ;D ;D On the precautionary side as you note above, I would suggest that any fancier wear a mask in their loft no matter how healthy their pigeons may be due to problems associated with pigeon dust (pigeon fancier's lung). I don't think extreme precautionary measures are necessary as pigeons do not shed the bacterium continuously, and even when they do Salmonella typhimurium var. copenhagen is not a significant health risk to humans.

 

 

Irrespective of who the statement is attributed to Larry, it cannot be evidence-based. As far as I am aware, there has never been a UK lofts survey on sufficient scale to reach a conclusion that all pigeons are infected.

 

I have no information that Salmonella typhimurium var. copenhagen can't be transmitted to humans. According to the UK Health Protection Agency, of the top 15 Salmonella serotypes causing Human infection reported Worldwide in Q3, 2006  S. typhimurium ranked second at 4,537 cases, 13% of total. S. enteritidis  was tops at 23,531, 68%.  By contrast the third numbered only 378 cases, 1% of the total.

 

http://www.hpa.org.uk/web/HPAwebFile/HPAweb_C/1194947346953

 

Salmonella in food animals is a reportable disease here. According to the UK Health Protection Agency, S. typhimurium ranked top of serotypes reported twice or more as causing Human infection in England and Wales, Q1, 2005. So Typhimurium is quite significant here, and its presence in Humans would mean a multi-agency investigation to identify the source of the original infection. If racing pigeon lofts are as you have inferred, vectors of this disease, then probabilities would suggest pigeon fanciers would figure in those infection statistics and their lofts would have been identified as the source in at least some of the cases.  I have not heard of any.  

 

http://www.hpa.org.uk/webw/HPAweb&HPAwebStandard/HPAweb_C/1195733779241?p=1192454969657

 

When developing amino acid Assays to detect and identify specific Salmonella strains infecting Humans, S. typhimurium was included and around 57 different strains of it are mentioned, though none by name so S. typhimurium var. copenhagen cannot be discounted as being one of them:-

 

A previous study of ..  among 7 Typhimurium strains .. 6 full S. Typhimurium ..  a further 20 S. Typhimurium strains were sequenced .. . Sequence type "Typhimurium_a" was detected in 18 strains .. Sequence type "Typhimurium_b" was detected in 4 strains …. Sequence type "Typhimurium_c" .. was found in 2 strains: 571896 and 571913. Strains 571896 and 571913 were phage type DT104

 

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedid=15298703

 

DT104 is the S. typhimurium strain which is resistant to some of our newest classes of antibiotics. Baytril is one of these, yet has been recommended on this thread be given (blind?) prior to a paratyphoid vaccine. Baytril’s manufacturers Beyers are quite categoric that this practice is wrong – they go as far as to say that if it is suspected DT104 infection is present, then do not attempt a cure with Baytril - the flock has to be culled out.

 

http://www.poultry.baytril.com/index.php/fuseaction/download/lrn_file/Quinolones_E_Internet.pdf

 

 

 

[Larry Lucas]

Irrespective of who the statement is attributed to Larry, it cannot be evidence-based. As far as I am aware, there has never been a UK lofts survey on sufficient scale to reach a conclusion that all pigeons are infected.

 

I have no information that Salmonella typhimurium var. copenhagen can't be transmitted to humans. According to the UK Health Protection Agency, of the top 15 Salmonella serotypes causing Human infection reported Worldwide in Q3, 2006  S. typhimurium ranked second at 4,537 cases, 13% of total. S. enteritidis  was tops at 23,531, 68%.  By contrast the third numbered only 378 cases, 1% of the total.

 

The man is one of the leading avian veterinarians in North America. Regardless, if you will do a little more reading you will discover within ST there are many sub-strains. For our purposes statistics from the broad category of S. typhimurium are not really applicable, only that of v. Copenhagen.

 

The last article I read indicated from 1982 to 1996 only 715 cases of ST in humans were reported in the USA, of those only a few were var. Copenhagen and these were associated with other more significant health issues such as very low IgA or other immune system disorders.  But for the sake of argument if all infections from ST including v. C are averaged at 51 per year for those years, I think you will agree that out of 265 million people in 1996 the infection rate is not even close to being statistically significant. I believe more people were struck by lightening in 1996 than were infected by all known strains of ST. If we only look at v. C it becomes silly. Unless there is an odd situation in the UK I suspect the statical significance ratio applies there as well.

 

You will note that I previously wrote, "under normal circumstances" var. Copenhagen is not transmittable. If one has significant health issues associated with the immune system it is not wise to keep pigeons or any other animal, for that matter. The whole matter is not a reportable issue here and no doubt will remain that way.

 

On the matter of Baytril: if you search what I have posted here, on Pigeon Chat and Pipa, you will find that I normally state (but did not here) that blind treatment with antibiotics is normally a bad idea and that an antibiotic screening by a lab is preferable. In this case the strain of ST v. C that is resistant to Baytril is not widespread and treating for a full fourteen days will not pose a problem as it is under-treatment that significantly contributes to the build-up of specific antibiotic resistance. If one does not have access to a lab or a competent avian vet and one's birds display all the standard symptoms of a full-blown paratyphoid infection, it is best to "blind" treat with the product that holds the highest level of potential to resolve the issue -- in this case, Baytril. My veterinarian advised me to treat all new pigeons to my loft with the 14 days of Baytril and vaccination on the 7th day -- without bothering with labs. Given his expertise in the field, that is precisely what I do. Just another opinion, and I am not suggesting anyone violate laws within your own country or follow veterinary practice that is not acknowledged by animal medical practices in your own country.

[Guest IB]

Am I right in thinking that by vaccinating your actually introducing a small enough dose of Paratyphoid into the pigeon to stimulates the body into producing antibodies to fight it off should it come into contact with it at a later date. A carrier pigeon will already have these antibodies so once the course of Baytril has done its work and rid the body of Paratyphoid I cant see whats to be gained by vaccinating. The antibodies are already in place.

 

Another lone voice in the wilderness, Tony.   I believe you are spot-on in your thinking, because we already have a vaccination 'warning' that we should be reading every year that features roughly the same circumstances - Paramyxo vaccine and maternal antibodies - and Colombovac's instruction not to vaccinate youngsters under 3 weeks old because the presence of existing antibodies will prevent the vaccine taking hold.

 

Once challenged, the bird will have both antibodies and more importantly, an immune memory which means that it will mount an enhanced reponse to that particular organism the next time it meets it. This theory that Baytril will clear existing paratyphoid and vaccination will render the bird immune to further attacks therefore fails 'the basic biology test'. As you say, if the bird already has been exposed to paratyphoid, then it already has the antibodies and the immune memory to handle another paratyphoid attack, and vaccination is therefore a complete waste of time and money.

 

Johny11 mentioned Immunoglobulins. These are antibodies and the pigeon has 3 types: IgA, IgY and IgM. Sufficient to say that all of them are passed by the hen to her youngsters in her egg, IgY in the yolk, and the others in the 'white'.  IgA is also passed by both parents in their crop milk. IgA is present in all the bird's secretions e.g. the tears, saliva and all the mucous linings of all the various membranes. Larry Lucas mentioned Avian flu; according to Dr Erhardt Kaleta, advisor to German Homing Union, IgA kills that virus too and the pigeon having it within its first line of defence is probably one of the main reasons for its resistance to AI.

 

And then we come to the 'carrier' state. Well the first theory that goes 'pop' must be the carrier responsible for dead in shell. If the hen is a paratyphoid carrier and immune to the disease, then she is also passing on antibodies to protect both her egg and her youngster against it.

 

I don't pretend to know all the ins and outs of the 'carrier state', but I believe we do already have at least 2 'carrier' states in pigeons that are actually recommended by vets. Both of them have been mentioned many times on the forum: trichomonas and cocci. A background presence of these organisms keeps the immune system fettled and is the equivalent of vaccinating the pigeon against more serious strains,  and so their presence is both harmless to the bird and prevents full-blown disease.

 

So the question is: is the same true of salmonella?

 

  

 

 

 

 

 

[Larry Lucas]

 

Another lone voice in the wilderness, Tony.   I believe you are spot-on in your thinking, because we already have a vaccination 'warning' that we should be reading every year that features roughly the same circumstances - Paramyxo vaccine and maternal antibodies - and Colombovac's instruction not to vaccinate youngsters under 3 weeks old because the presence of existing antibodies will prevent the vaccine taking hold.

 

Once challenged, the bird will have both antibodies and more importantly, an immune memory which means that it will mount an enhanced reponse to that particular organism the next time it meets it. This theory that Baytril will clear existing paratyphoid and vaccination will render the bird immune to further attacks therefore fails 'the basic biology test'. As you say, if the bird already has been exposed to paratyphoid, then it already has the antibodies and the immune memory to handle another paratyphoid attack, and vaccination is therefore a complete waste of time and money.

 

Johny11 mentioned Immunoglobulins. These are antibodies and the pigeon has 3 types: IgA, IgY and IgM. Sufficient to say that all of them are passed by the hen to her youngsters in her egg, IgY in the yolk, and the others in the 'white'.  IgA is also passed by both parents in their crop milk. IgA is present in all the bird's secretions e.g. the tears, saliva and all the mucous linings of all the various membranes. Larry Lucas mentioned Avian flu; according to Dr Erhardt Kaleta, advisor to German Homing Union, IgA kills that virus too and the pigeon having it within its first line of defence is probably one of the main reasons for its resistance to AI.

 

And then we come to the 'carrier' state. Well the first theory that goes 'pop' must be the carrier responsible for dead in shell. If the hen is a paratyphoid carrier and immune to the disease, then she is also passing on antibodies to protect both her egg and her youngster against it.

 

I don't pretend to know all the ins and outs of the 'carrier state', but I believe we do already have at least 2 'carrier' states in pigeons that are actually recommended by vets. Both of them have been mentioned many times on the forum: trichomonas and cocci. A background presence of these organisms keeps the immune system fettled and is the equivalent of vaccinating the pigeon against more serious strains,  and so their presence is both harmless to the bird and prevents full-blown disease.

 

So the question is: is the same true of salmonella?

 

Actually, current recommendation is for birds to be vaccinated for Paramyxo while still in the nest because of the pandemic nature of Circovirus. Vaccination in the nest is not recommended for Paratyphoid as the vaccine is not as benign. Manufacturers at times offer label advice (for that is what it is) to cover themselves legally -- not necessarily offering the best medical procedure in that label advice. Fact. Ask any practicing veterinarian. And, with respect, your observations about antibodies and subsequent challenge related to ST v. C misses the point. In the case of ST v. C it does not matter that antibodies are developed after exposure: what matters is that many of those same birds with those antibodies do indeed become carriers/hosts of the bacteria. Much like herpes virus in humans, it goes dormant at the cellular level only to surface again when the bird is stressed in some manner. They will not show overt signs of the disease, but they will shed the bacteria through feces and mucosal tissues infecting other birds, often resulting in septacemia in the younger pigeons and in a few older birds -- especially when Circovirus is also present, which these days must always be considered as part of the analysis.

 

Your observation that eliminating a carrier state fails "basic biology" is misplaced as it does not take into account the manner in which ST bacteria function after the bird is initially challenged. A kind of ad hominum approach to bacteriology in this case would be a mistake. The process of using Baytril (Enrofloxacin) to clear the carrier state of ST v. C has been proven repeatedly in clinical and ad hoc studies. While this procedure does not carry a 100% guarantee, it is effective. A simple Google search will turn up more than a few published studies if you are interested and do not have access to journals in a university veterinary library. Or email Dr. Gordon Chalmers in Canada, Dr. Wim Peters in South Africa, or Dr. Rob Marshall in Australia. They probably won't mind answering your questions about ST, the carrier state, and the process I have described.

 

For what it is worth.

 

 

[Larry Lucas]

 

Another lone voice in the wilderness, Tony.   I believe you are spot-on in your thinking, because we already have a vaccination 'warning' that we should be reading every year that features roughly the same circumstances - Paramyxo vaccine and maternal antibodies - and Colombovac's instruction not to vaccinate youngsters under 3 weeks old because the presence of existing antibodies will prevent the vaccine taking hold.

 

Once challenged, the bird will have both antibodies and more importantly, an immune memory which means that it will mount an enhanced reponse to that particular organism the next time it meets it. This theory that Baytril will clear existing paratyphoid and vaccination will render the bird immune to further attacks therefore fails 'the basic biology test'. As you say, if the bird already has been exposed to paratyphoid, then it already has the antibodies and the immune memory to handle another paratyphoid attack, and vaccination is therefore a complete waste of time and money.

 

Johny11 mentioned Immunoglobulins. These are antibodies and the pigeon has 3 types: IgA, IgY and IgM. Sufficient to say that all of them are passed by the hen to her youngsters in her egg, IgY in the yolk, and the others in the 'white'.  IgA is also passed by both parents in their crop milk. IgA is present in all the bird's secretions e.g. the tears, saliva and all the mucous linings of all the various membranes. Larry Lucas mentioned Avian flu; according to Dr Erhardt Kaleta, advisor to German Homing Union, IgA kills that virus too and the pigeon having it within its first line of defence is probably one of the main reasons for its resistance to AI.

 

And then we come to the 'carrier' state. Well the first theory that goes 'pop' must be the carrier responsible for dead in shell. If the hen is a paratyphoid carrier and immune to the disease, then she is also passing on antibodies to protect both her egg and her youngster against it.

 

I don't pretend to know all the ins and outs of the 'carrier state', but I believe we do already have at least 2 'carrier' states in pigeons that are actually recommended by vets. Both of them have been mentioned many times on the forum: trichomonas and cocci. A background presence of these organisms keeps the immune system fettled and is the equivalent of vaccinating the pigeon against more serious strains,  and so their presence is both harmless to the bird and prevents full-blown disease.

 

So the question is: is the same true of salmonella?

 

Actually, current recommendation is for birds to be vaccinated for Paramyxo while still in the nest because of the pandemic nature of Circovirus. Vaccination in the nest is not recommended for Paratyphoid as the vaccine is not as benign. Manufacturers at times offer label advice (for that is what it is) to cover themselves legally -- not necessarily offering the best medical procedure in that label advice. Fact. Ask any practicing veterinarian. And, with respect, your observations about antibodies and subsequent challenge related to ST v. C misses the point. In the case of ST v. C it does not matter that antibodies are developed after exposure: what matters is that many of those same birds with those antibodies do indeed become carriers/hosts of the bacteria. Much like herpes virus in humans, it goes dormant at the cellular level only to surface again when the bird is stressed in some manner. They will not show overt signs of the disease, but they will shed the bacteria through feces and mucosal tissues infecting other birds, often resulting in septacemia in the younger pigeons and in a few older birds -- especially when Circovirus is also present, which these days must always be considered as part of the analysis.

 

Your observation that eliminating a carrier state fails "basic biology" is misplaced as it does not take into account the manner in which ST bacteria function after the bird is initially challenged. A kind of ad hominum approach to bacteriology in this case would be a mistake. The process of using Baytril (Enrofloxacin) to clear the carrier state of ST v. C has been proven repeatedly in clinical and ad hoc studies. While this procedure does not carry a 100% guarantee, it is effective. A simple Google search will turn up more than a few published studies if you are interested and do not have access to journals in a university veterinary library. Or email Dr. Gordon Chalmers in Canada, Dr. Wim Peters in South Africa, or Dr. Rob Marshall in Australia. They probably won't mind answering your questions about ST, the carrier state, and the process I have described.

 

For what it is worth.

 

 

[Guest Vic]

Sorry guys  to keep rabbiting on. But,  nearing the end of  my tether!   Continuing the posting.................... I have  recently been told, that a virus infection  has been running rife on the continent for the last eighteen months or so, producing similar symptoms, akin to Paratyphoid. The prescribed cure being, Cyper Floxin 200 along with Tromexin. I feel that I have reached the crossroads after a long and arduous journey, and somebody has twisted the signpost.  I am almost at my journeys end,  but nearer maybe to my wits end.  It seems to me that you can't ask a vet, a simple question these days. Unless......?

[Larry Lucas]

Vic, it may be time to find a good avian vet. It will cost a few pounds but save you a lot of groping in the dark. Send Dr. Gord an email. He is very helpful. I'll pm you his email address.

[Guest Vic]

Thanks Larry, for your wholehearted advice, I will heed your suggestions,   before mistreating. TO BE QUITE HONEST, I AM HALF WAY UP THE WALL AND THINKING OF CALLING IT A DAY. I AM NO NOVICE, AS YOU KNOW. BUT OUR MODERN VETS, THRIVE SOLELY ON HOUSEHOLD PETS. STOP!  

[superstar]

Use that email address I sent you via PM Vic. Top bloke that believe me they dont come much better!

[Guest IB]

 

Actually, current recommendation is for birds to be vaccinated for Paramyxo while still in the nest because of the pandemic nature of Circovirus. Vaccination in the nest is not recommended for Paratyphoid as the vaccine is not as benign. Manufacturers at times offer label advice (for that is what it is) to cover themselves legally -- not necessarily offering the best medical procedure in that label advice. Fact. Ask any practicing veterinarian. And, with respect, your observations about antibodies and subsequent challenge related to ST v. C misses the point. In the case of ST v. C it does not matter that antibodies are developed after exposure: what matters is that many of those same birds with those antibodies do indeed become carriers/hosts of the bacteria. Much like herpes virus in humans, it goes dormant at the cellular level only to surface again when the bird is stressed in some manner. They will not show overt signs of the disease, but they will shed the bacteria through feces and mucosal tissues infecting other birds, often resulting in septacemia in the younger pigeons and in a few older birds -- especially when Circovirus is also present, which these days must always be considered as part of the analysis. /quote]

 

The point I was making concerned vaccination where antibodies to the organism being vaccinated against were already present. I cited the warning given for PMV vaccine when PMV antibodies were already present, and the reason given for not doing it was that the vaccine may not take. I would think this knowledge would come from field trials of the vaccine.

 

I agree that vets currently recommend PMV vaccination be given as early as possible,  (given circovirus and its destructive affect on the bursa of fabricius) but Colombovac and Nobilis are quite specific - not to birds younger that 3 weeks and 5 weeks respectively. I have been in previous email contact with Gordon Chalmers on PMV vaccination,  and the Colombovac warning about maternal antibodies, especially since I vaccinate one month prior to pairing my pigeons up, and his guidance was that I follow the current recommendation, subject to the age limits for the vaccine being used. I have done this for 2 years now.

[Larry Lucas]

If that is the advice Gord gave you it is valuable information. He probably told you some avian vets here feel the risk associated with Circovirus outweights off-label practice, but on the pragmatic side Colombovac is not the primary supplier of PMV vaccine here. I am aware of one astute medical person who uses Colombovac who recommends in-nest injection at no later than three weeks old due to the problem of Circovirus and YBS. If this is an item of high concern for you could contact Colombovac and inquire if antibody rejection is absolute or merely potential during early vaccination. It is entirely possible they are not aware of the early link of Circovirus, the destruction of the Bursa and onset of PMV and you would be doing them a favor by inquiring.

 

About eight years ago I accepted five young pigeons from a fancier in another State for a local futurity race. The gentleman had a good reputation  and the birds arrived looking quite healthy. I vaccinated for PMV and Salmonella and within a month young pigeons began dropping like flies, including all from that fancier. I took the birds to the university lab to be posted. Circovirus, PMV, Paratyphoid, Herpesvirus, etc. was the result. That fancier then confessed to me he had ongoing problems with Circovirus. Even though I vaccinated, the damage was done. If anyone has experienced this they will do whatever they can within good veterinary practice to avoid it. Word to the wise.

[frank-123]

some great posts there larry

we have already heard of circovirus in the one loft race where we had a massive flyaway then circo followed by paramaxyo leading to the culling of many birds and then the eventual cancelation of the race

sure kaybee maybe could go into more detail

 

maybe this is a cause of the massive  losses across the uk over the last few years???????????????

i also had a bird drop dead this year for no reason then another two i culled and one more i had a postmortem done on it i was told para was rife in scotland but i was lucky all they could find was a bad canker

funny how nobody mentions when there birds are sick

 

youngbird sickness or circovirus two in the same or one weaker strain or totally different

whats your opinion ?

[Larry Lucas]

Hi Bart. There is a growing consensus that Circovirus is the primary culprit behind YBS. Earlier it was assumed to be Adenovirus which opened the door to massive multiplication of Ecoli leading to vomiting, etc., etc. In some areas the testing for Circovirus now used is more sensitive and CV is now more readily discovered. The good news/bad news I read in a recent article indicates that while there is still nothing that can prevent CV, subsequent generations show antibodies to CV perhaps indicating the ability of a loft (assuming good immune systems) to have better resistance to the virus. So yes, I would suspect that in young bird racing this virus may be at least part of the problem for losses. And if the F1 old birds after the initial exposure are lost in large numbers, it could be a factor there as well. Of course, this is speculation on my part.

[Guest IB]

If that is the advice Gord gave you it is valuable information. He probably told you some avian vets here feel the risk associated with Circovirus outweights off-label practice, but on the pragmatic side Colombovac is not the primary supplier of PMV vaccine here. I am aware of one astute medical person who uses Colombovac who recommends in-nest injection at no later than three weeks old due to the problem of Circovirus and YBS. If this is an item of high concern for you could contact Colombovac and inquire if antibody rejection is absolute or merely potential during early vaccination. It is entirely possible they are not aware of the early link of Circovirus, the destruction of the Bursa and onset of PMV and you would be doing them a favor by inquiring.

 

About eight years ago I accepted five young pigeons from a fancier in another State for a local futurity race. The gentleman had a good reputation  and the birds arrived looking quite healthy. I vaccinated for PMV and Salmonella and within a month young pigeons began dropping like flies, including all from that fancier. I took the birds to the university lab to be posted. Circovirus, PMV, Paratyphoid, Herpesvirus, etc. was the result. That fancier then confessed to me he had ongoing problems with Circovirus. Even though I vaccinated, the damage was done. If anyone has experienced this they will do whatever they can within good veterinary practice to avoid it. Word to the wise.

 

Judging by the number of research papers available on-line, using maternal antibodies as search keywords, the role maternal antibodies play in the suppression of vaccination in humans, animals and birds seems to be generally well known.

 

Going back to the original point: Maternal antibodies are not a special case - any antibodies present whether due to disease or previous vaccination - will nullify a later vaccine against the same organism. This is borne out at this link, which I find refreshingly easy to follow given that it is written in plain English:-

 

http://www.newvaccinationprotocols.com/Current%20Knowledge%20of%20Immunology%20101.htm

 

[Larry Lucas]

 

Judging by the number of research papers available on-line, using maternal antibodies as search keywords, the role maternal antibodies play in the suppression of vaccination in humans, animals and birds seems to be generally well known.

 

Going back to the original point: Maternal antibodies are not a special case - any antibodies present whether due to disease or previous vaccination - will nullify a later vaccine against the same organism. This is borne out at this link, which I find refreshingly easy to follow given that it is written in plain English:-

 

http://www.newvaccinationprotocols.com/Current%20Knowledge%20of%20Immunology%20101.htm

 

If antibodies were omnipotent, maternal or otherwise, then there would be no need to vaccinate humans, birds, or animals at all. But in fact, not all antibodies transfer, even when carried by the adult. And, given that some antibodies are temporary or non-efficient (note the annual need for vaccination for most issues in pigeons), wisdom would seem to call for vaccination -- at least if one desires to actually race their pigeons, exposing them to the primordial ooze of the racing pannier. Since the average fancier cannot currently measure antibodies of pigeons in the nest or in adult birds it would seem inadvisable to do otherwise. I.e., sometimes common sense must weigh in. Good discussion, but I think my last on this issue as we seem to be spinning in circles and my time is very limited.

[PigeonTracker]

Not sure whether any of you have read this article, http://www.ifpigeon.com/IF/articles/Streptococcus_bovis_infection.html  it seems to be focussed on european studies and although possibly slightly dated does give a vets insight into the problems and what can and doesn't work as a cure.  One theory that keeps cropping up is sanitation but as one or more posters here know if you get a stray coming in with your birds from a training run or even race that has the bug then you can be as sanitised as you like the bug just walked in through the front door.  

 

My viewpoint is that it will eventually be controlled but never cured, but as with all types of bacterium it will mutate and we'll go back to stage one.

[DOVEScot]

Not sure whether any of you have read this article, http://www.ifpigeon.com/IF/articles/Streptococcus_bovis_infection.html  it seems to be focussed on european studies and although possibly slightly dated does give a vets insight into the problems and what can and doesn't work as a cure.  One theory that keeps cropping up is sanitation but as one or more posters here know if you get a stray coming in with your birds from a training run or even race that has the bug then you can be as sanitised as you like the bug just walked in through the front door.  

 

My viewpoint is that it will eventually be controlled but never cured, but as with all types of bacterium it will mutate and we'll go back to stage one.

 

Do you not run this risk using holding lofts, with the chance of cross infection either way, from loft to visitor, visitor to loft or even visitor to visitor :-/

[Guest Vic]

Vic, it may be time to find a good avian vet. It will cost a few pounds but save you a lot of groping in the dark. Send Dr. Gord an email. He is very helpful. I'll pm you his email address.

  Thanks Larry, for your remarkable postings. I ejoyed your forthright comments when pipa first started a number of years back. I will be contacting Gord, as I know that he too, is the bees knees. I have already wasted enough money, with inadeqate vets around these quarters. So. Do or Die! I will be doing it your way. Good luck Always. Cheers, Vic.  

 

 

[Guest Vic]

 

Do you not run this risk using holding lofts, with the chance of cross infection either way, from loft to visitor, visitor to loft or even visitor to visitor :-/

  Yes, this is one of the risks, when talking about holding lofts with strays. Let's face it! Some of these birds will be walking bacteriological  timebombs! As one loft racing,  will prove to be another of all our yesterdays due to this creeping paratyhoid, that can hide within perfect looking pigeons. Think About it!      

                          Years ago, I remember sending for a really good multiple winner who had never been out at night time. But alas! like all gooduns,  most  meet their Waterloo! There was a scheme at the time run by the Racing Pigeon  helping to get lost birds back from the continent. (continued) shortly, before iis erased.