brotherxsister

[Guest frank dooman]

 

fRANK IF kARENS GIRL WAS MINE SHE WOULD HAVE BEEN IN MY STOCK LOFT IN AVIARY FOR THE REST OF HER LIFE .   NO POINT IN FEEDING HAWKS GOOD PIGEONS.

 

like me the big man believes they are better  flying out but a fair point i suppose

[Guest stb-]

 

like me the big man believes they are better  flying out but a fair point i suppose

 

cant aggree on that one frank as all my best pigeons are breed from prisoners in the stock loft as i dont breed of the racers until they ern there way into the stock loft.

 

I HAVE HAD A LOT OF GOOD BIRDS BEED FROM BIRDS THATS NEVER FLOWN OUT.

 

As i said why risk good birds,  have heard this so often people stopping great pigeons only to get swarfled by the  b o p :)

[Guest gladdo]

i would say put your best to your best and get hopefully get the best... just a thought ... mikey...only my opinion....

[Guest frank dooman]

 

cant aggree on that one frank as all my best pigeons are breed from prisoners in the stock loft as i dont breed of the racers until they ern there way into the stock loft.

 

I HAVE HAD A LOT OF GOOD BIRDS BEED FROM BIRDS THATS NEVER FLOWN OUT.

 

As i said why risk good birds,  have heard this so often people stopping great pigeons only to get swarfled by the  b o p :)

 

fair comment robert will have to agree to disagree

[Guest strapper]

just for info for others..this is what wikpedia says about brother/sister mating

 

Inbreeding may result in a far higher phenotypic expression of deleterious recessive genes within a population than would normally be expected.[1] As a result, first-generation inbred individuals are more likely to show physical and health defects, including:

 

Reduced fertility both in litter size and sperm viability

Increased genetic disorders

Fluctuating facial asymmetry

Lower birth rate

Higher infant mortality

Slower growth rate

Smaller adult size

Loss of immune system function

 

as you see, same as i suggested about the imune system,sometime us humans try to hard to reap rewards in the present that we forget about what the future will be.

 

its clear that winners come from crossing genes that come from the same winning parents.

but at what cost is it for the future?.

 

 

[lightning fast]

Do Your own thing!!! I know guys that win pairing father to daughter and win and guys that cross all the time and win theres no rules, try it and if it work ACE , if it doesent try somthing else till it works for you..

[dwh]

just for info for others..this is what wikpedia says about brother/sister mating

 

Inbreeding may result in a far higher phenotypic expression of deleterious recessive genes within a population than would normally be expected.[1] As a result, first-generation inbred individuals are more likely to show physical and health defects, including:

 

Reduced fertility both in litter size and sperm viability

Increased genetic disorders

Fluctuating facial asymmetry

Lower birth rate

Higher infant mortality

Slower growth rate

Smaller adult size

Loss of immune system function

 

as you see, same as i suggested about the imune system,sometime us humans try to hard to reap rewards in the present that we forget about what the future will be.

 

its clear that winners come from crossing genes that come from the same winning parents.

but at what cost is it for the future?.

 

so takingall this into account who would specifically pair brox sis for stock to pair to new stock ?

 

 

[Bugsy]

I have inbred brother x sister, father x dtr and mother x son over a long period of time, the one common thing I can share is that approx 85% of the offspring do not make the grade and do not come up to the qualities the parents have. The first and absolute rule of inbreeding this close is the birds to be used have to be of the highest quality and soaked with top federation and national results, by this I mean they have actually won or bred themselves. The ones that have made the grade have all gone on to breed top performance pigeons wining right up to 1st National level but each of thm has been outcrossed at the next generation. You do have to know what you are doing and to recap the following is all important :

1.  Only use the very best pigeons to inbreed (proven breeders/racers at the highest level)

2.  Selection is important as the majority will not make the grade

3.  Outcross the offspring

 

Hope this helps as there has been a lot of good advice given and I am only speaking of my own experiences of inbreeding.

 

John Burgham.

[PIGEON_MAN]

Why would you want to make a pairing like this? The only reason to make any pairing at all, if you want the young, is when you pair two winning birds together. If the two birds are brilliant racers I would not hesitate to pair them. Brother and sister or not. At least you will know what is hidden in the reccessive genes. And there is every good chance that you will breed something special. But, for goodness sake, do not pair birds unless there is a good reason to believe that they can produce winners. Unless of course you are involved in experimentation, which is a differant thing altogether.

A major reason why people loose pigeons is because they insist on pairing birds together in spite of the fact that they have done nothing. The best breeders of winning pigeons are winning pigeons.

Take note of what Jimmy White has said. In his case a brother and sister produced something good but it was not any old brother and sister. They were proven winners.

 

Owen,Take a look again at what you wrote(in red) there is not one bit of truth in these statements or any guarentees,so who is trying to mislead who,you can talk all you want about genes etc,but it doesnt stop a pigeon breeding winners that hasnt done anything racing,I,m sorry but that statement is wrong.

[bewted]

 

Owen,Take a look again at what you wrote(in red) there is not one bit of truth in these statements or any guarentees,so who is trying to mislead who,you can talk all you want about genes etc,but it doesnt stop a pigeon breeding winners that hasnt done anything racing,I,m sorry but that statement is wrong.

 

there are times when you can get birds that cant even race across back gardens or get lost at short training toss,,,,,but,,,,,sure can breed the goods in the nest,,,,i know that from experiance ! there are breeders and there are racers and odd time there are breeders/racers that do both !!! just saying in least few words as possible too with out any arguements !

[holmsidelofts]

 

Owen,Take a look again at what you wrote(in red) there is not one bit of truth in these statements or any guarentees,so who is trying to mislead who,you can talk all you want about genes etc,but it doesnt stop a pigeon breeding winners that hasnt done anything racing,I,m sorry but that statement is wrong.

 

I have to agree with owen. one of the reasons for high loses are crap birds period. It amazes me when you look in the homing world at all the sales for stock birds etc, people saying they need to reduce numbers etc. utter bull, all they are doing is selling the rubbish that has bred nothing. us the fancier than buys these birds that are rubbish and we breed rubbish. If these birds were any good you would never sell them. the further away from the winners you get the less likely you are to breed a winner. when you pair 2 winners together you get a 50 - 50 chance of producing winners. just because one bird is a champion it doesnt mean his brothers or sisters etc will be. just think of all the athletes or sports men and women out there that  are fantastic athletes but there brothers or sisters are not. there is no guarantee in anything but you increase your chances by pairing winners to winners.

 

 

[Guest Owen]

PIGEON-MAN

I will conceed that it is possible for pigeons that have never raced to breed winners, just as it is possible for pigeons who have won never to produce their like. Right, we have got that out of the way. What we are all looking for, are the pigeons that carry the genes to win races. So it is a case of where we are most likely to find them. You have to admit that there is a better chance of finding those genes in the birds that have done the job. I get fed up with listening to liars and con merchants trying to convince people to buy birds that are going to set the World on fire. The whole basis of breeding good racing pigeons is through the discipline of progeny testing. Nothing else will take it's place. If you are advocating the idea that people should breed from untried birds you are wrong. Do you really think that all those birds offered for sale at Blackpool will do anything in the Stock Loft. You know as well as I do that the vast majority were bred to bring an income for the Vender. The Dutch and Belgiums are doing very nicely thankyou.

Finally, I will discuss and debate with you or anyone else all day and hope to give and take as I do. But you are now bordering on insulting me. I will not go along that road or enter into that sort dialogue. The only time I do that is when the person concerned is standing near me. So as politely as I can, I ask you to just slow the insults down a bit. I will probably go to Blackpool and I will advertise the fact on here. So if you would like to meet me there, you can.  

[holmsidelofts]

PIGEON-MAN

I will conceed that it is possible for pigeons that have never raced to breed winners, just as it is possible for pigeons who have won never to produce their like. Right, we have got that out of the way. What we are all looking for, are the pigeons that carry the genes to win races. So it is a case of where we are most likely to find them. You have to admit that there is a better chance of finding those genes in the birds that have done the job. I get fed up with listening to liars and con merchants trying to convince people to buy birds that are going to set the World on fire. The whole basis of breeding good racing pigeons is through the discipline of progeny testing. Nothing else will take it's place. If you are advocating the idea that people should breed from untried birds you are wrong. Do you really think that all those birds offered for sale at Blackpool will do anything in the Stock Loft. You know as well as I do that the vast majority were bred to bring an income for the Vender. The Dutch and Belgiums are doing very nicely thankyou.

Finally, I will discuss and debate with you or anyone else all day and hope to give and take as I do. But you are now bordering on insulting me. I will not go along that road or enter into that sort dialogue. The only time I do that is when the person concerned is standing near me. So as politely as I can, I ask you to just slow the insults down a bit. I will probably go to Blackpool and I will advertise the fact on here. So if you would like to meet me there, you can.  

 

When we also look at all the dutch birds forsale, theres plenty in blackpool this year, i have no doubt some of theses are very good birds but through selection are bred to win in a place that is completely flat with little in the way of mountains and valleys. this is what we talk about when we talk about progeny testing and breeding for certain characteristics, there environment they race in is totally different from ours and we expect to breed winners over here which have to deal with all what the uk can throw at them. im not say they dont breed winners because they will, what im saying is they werent bred and selected to flying in the uk. this is one part of genetics and the selection process.

 

A good example of that is staf van reet. he bred bird that excelled at 120 miles he did this by only racing his birds from that distance, what he did was breed the winners to winners. if the birds didnt win at that distance multiple times they went. by doing this he created a super sprint family, it was all done from breeding from only the birds that won from that distance.

 

It makes no sense breeding year after year from untried birds, there has to be a point where you say enough is enough. thats what all the sales week in week out is in the homing world. people getting rid of rubbish, unless its an entire clearance sale where you can buy the breeders of winners. I would never sell birds that did nothing.

 

 

 

[Roland]

Yearlings out crosses produce the most winners by far. Fact that. Now the problem arises 'Which to which' Answer good stock sence. Some a geniouses lis Busseart Masserella etc. others quite good / fair or most are useless.

Breed incest birds to race is foolhardy, and uncalled for. Any and every time one goes against nature she turns and kicks you in the teeth.

Incets breeding for an Out cross is a different matter altogether, though against mosts ideals.

There is a wide golf of diffenrence in 'Line Breeding' and 'incenst' and one should know the difference even before ever applying incest.

Now Strappper has it totally right. And so called duds breed great. Also  - unfortunately - it is very often the missed generation of duds followed by the throw backs I.e Grandchildren that shine as both either Racers breeders. So one has to build an outcross family to get to know what will throw what. hence whilst there are very few in real terms Greats.

[Skull Lofts]

Was thinking of pairing a g/sire to g/daughter this year, not too sure if it would be a good mating for offspring.  

 

1 of the best matings you can make m8!

 

Skull

[PIGEON_MAN]

 

When we also look at all the dutch birds forsale, theres plenty in blackpool this year, i have no doubt some of theses are very good birds but through selection are bred to win in a place that is completely flat with little in the way of mountains and valleys. this is what we talk about when we talk about progeny testing and breeding for certain characteristics, there environment they race in is totally different from ours and we expect to breed winners over here which have to deal with all what the uk can throw at them. im not say they dont breed winners because they will, what im saying is they werent bred and selected to flying in the uk. this is one part of genetics and the selection process.

 

A good example of that is staf van reet. he bred bird that excelled at 120 miles he did this by only racing his birds from that distance, what he did was breed the winners to winners. if the birds didnt win at that distance multiple times they went. by doing this he created a super sprint family, it was all done from breeding from only the birds that won from that distance.

 

It makes no sense breeding year after year from untried birds, there has to be a point where you say enough is enough. thats what all the sales week in week out is in the homing world. people getting rid of rubbish, unless its an entire clearance sale where you can buy the breeders of winners. I would never sell birds that did nothing.

It makes no sense breeding off birds that are not breeding winners weather they are tried or untried,what is being said is dont breed of birds that are untried and to me this is rubbish,as is now being confirmed by others on the forum.

[Guest frank dooman]

tony what owen and holmsidelofts are saying is for a novice the fastest and safest way to establish a winning family is winner to winner i would agree 100% with that but the slight prob is a novice prob wont have any actual winners unless they have alot of money but i allso agree that birds that have never won will breed winners the thing about that is when you start to try and build a winning family from just stock birds it can take a very long time and can be a disaster 5 years down the drain  its ok for an established fancier with good birds to race meantime but most new starts will not wait 4/5 years to get there now there is an exception to the unraced proven breeders but again you would need to win the lotto to buy them as anyone with a brain wont give you proven breeders for nothing well execpt nuts like me i gave the sire of the £25k winner and he also bred 6 other winners to a guy i met in blackpool for nothing why they only went to 400mls no good to me

[holmsidelofts]

Pigeon man what me and owen are trying to get across is this:

1. you CAN breed winners from non raced birds thats a fact. but it is always a hit and miss affair. think of it this way you buy a bird that is a son or daughter of a winner. you put it to stock. you then rear from it. you are now 2 generations away from the winner, the further from the winning genes you are the less chance you have of reproducing them thats FACT. just because its a son/daughter/brother or sister means nothing if it isnt carrying the genes required for it to win.

2. rearing young from winner to winner is the best chance of producing more winners. Again thats FACT.

Let me tell you a little story back in 1993 i had the luck of getting a pair of untested birds that reared fantastic pigeons, winning against 20,000 pigeons, winning lots of races including 3rd national, that was 16 years ago. I bred and bred from this pair untill i bred no more. evenually i ruined this family because i had racing on my mind not keeping this familys genes going. i which i knew then what i know now about genetics.

so yes you can get a good pair but they are very rare. since then i have had so many untried pairs that were supposed to be from the best that never reared anything worth talking about, the best other than from this one pair came from winner to winner.

 

[mark croker]

I have a 2 year old hen that bred rubbish youngsters last year and both went in the bin,  its nestmate bred a winner, the hen was crossed to a van reet cock that that got taken by percy but was a good pigeon,  the cock paired to a laffy daffy hen that had not raced and i got two hens off them, one being the winner,

 

the hen has not made it to breeding as i had more proven hens,  

 

do you think this was a mistake,  and i should keep her and pair it to something of laffy daffy desent  :-/

 

do you think the genes will come out with a better pairing

 

ie. to a decendent of her brother   :-/

[Guest IB]

Just one point about 'best chance' of breeding winners. The best chance of breeding winners must come from a pair that have already bred winners, as between those two pigeons you can safely say you have a 100% complete gene pool for breeding winners. The odds are shorter for getting another winner from there.

 

But if you go for one winning son or daughter off that pair on a 'best to best racer' basis, you have only 50% of the original gene pool that the winners came from. This bird's mate is also only 50% of yet another gene pool, yet another roll of many, many dice, much longer odds, - and down to luck?