still think you onto a loser with the open door method bakes, worked with the stall trap old/young birds on ets now and never looked back,been involved with pigeons 40yrs and apart from ets stall trap still the best way to trap pigeons,and pigeons are still in a routine so don't post up open doors when as you say how you do your managment is up to you not joe bloggs down the club because joe bloggs down the club will come up and bite your *expletive removed*