Thanks for the quick replies! what it is the lad i fly with (ive been away from sport for 10 yrs) has been trying to track some down but having no luck and he hasn't tried internet as he is an older bloke and not to up to date with all the technology. Any how like i said when i flew with him 10 plus years ago he did very well out the channel with these birds and i think in general he has a soft spot for them so im doing my best to track some down (say thank you for taking me under his wing again. his Boizards were from louella also but he put across into them (kirkpatrick, as louella are known for inbreeding to the wick) and they came good. but the hardest part at the mo is just trying to find any. such a shame to think the way the sport is going how many of the great families will fall by the way side. thanks again everyone Hibb