David_vet

I would agree that this has become more of a problem over the years. I have used vaccine with great success but it is not a cheap option. In my view you will only create problems trying to control it with antibiotics alone. I have gone with the Chevivac S because it is just the one vaccination a year. In confirmed cases it can take 4 or 5 years to clear paratyphoid from the loft. There are no quick fixes. If anyone wishes to progress this further then contact me or check out my website. www.poultryhealthcentre.com look under pigeons! David

The sadness is that you are not going back to the supplier of the products. If your supplier does not know, then you are purchasing products from the wrong source. 1. Do not ever mix Baycox with anything else. 2. Fenzol is an excellent wormer when used correctly. As always it is important that you know the concentration of the active and tell everyone what it is before asking about dosing. Two separate treatments are required. Good luck

Tony C has it correct. Live LaSota vaccine is banned for use in the EU. However, it is the dead component of Colombovac PMV. Experimental work done many years ago showed that using the live vaccine was a waste of time and money. If you wish to race or show then only Colombovac or Nobilis can be used. It is always best to vaccinate all your birds not just the race or show birds. David

Just to confirm there is no need to vaccinate against Newcastle disease because you are already doing it. Newcastle disease is caused by Avian Paramyxovirus 1. Paramyxovirus of pigeons is also an Avian Paramyxovirus 1. Fortunately, we can distinguish between the two using genetic probes. Pigeons can be infected with the chicken strain and vice versa. Suspicion of both infections is Notifiable to DEFRA. Paramyxovirus of pigeons will not cause YBS. If it was suspected that it was the cause, then either fancier or vet should have reported this suspicion to DEFRA. Whilst the pigeon virus is slightly different from the chicken virus many who remember the beginning of paramyxovirus in pigeons will also remember that the first vaccines used to protect pigeons were the chicken Newcastle disease vaccines. Since then better vaccines have been developed using a smaller dose. Nobilis Paramyxo P201 is made from pigeon prarmyxovirus strain P201 and is a 0.25ml dose. Colombovac PMV contains Newcastle disease virus, strain LaSota, chicken paramyxovirus and is a 0.2ml dose. So by vaccinating against parmyxovirus of pigeons, you are also effectively vaccinating against Newcastle disease. Sunday will see me helping vaccinate the old birds. David

I am pleased to see all the words of caution. I reproduce part of Colin Walker's article. I could not put it better myself. "...Treating pigeons with ‘Baytril’ is not part of a routine pigeon health management program. At various times of the pigeon year, medication is used to prevent or control disease and prepare the birds for racing etc. ‘Baytril’ is not used in this way. It has no preventative property but simply kills organisms that are sensitive to it that are in the pigeon at the time of treatment. If birds are re-exposed to these organisms the day after the treatment stops they will be re-infected. I recently had a fancier tell me that every year as racing approaches he gives his race team ‘Baytril’ 1ml to 1 litre of drinking water for 10 days and that he considered this ‘essential’ for success. Using this drug in this way would achieve absolutely nothing apart from perhaps making the fancier feel better in some way. At the time of writing, it is about 8 weeks before racing starts in Victoria. I had another fancier ring me recently. He explained that he had given his race team, in preparation for racing, a long course of doxycycline, a long course of ‘Sulfa AVS’ (another antibiotic blend). The purpose of his phone call was to ask if he should now give a long course of ‘Baytril’. I found this call rather disappointing, for years well publicised pre-race programs have been published by vets. If nothing else, it just showed how some fanciers have an unreasonable over reliance on antibiotics."

I would assume that it has to be a congenital defect that have a genetic component or some other factor that affected development in the egg. Did you notice this soon after hatching? I could understand that it may have been too small to notice as a youngster. Is the toe firmly attached to it's normal counterpart and can you feel any bone in it? Very interesting, David

Thank you. How often you monitor depends on what you find and how you treat? Now doubt we will be in touch to discuss the specifics of your observations. Another presentation to go up shortly, I discovered that some samples were positive for worms when using one test and not when using another. end result, Hairworms present in the loft when it was thought there were no worms at all! Hence the regular checking. Best wishes, David

Well as a vet I would say vaccinate wouldn't I? What I will say is that I advise clients to vaccinate. There is more paratyphoid about now than there was 20 years ago. the precise regime depends on many factors but basically boils down to have you had clinical disease o not. One regime if yes and a different one if no. Paratyphoid is a problem because your birds could be carrying it for a long time before disease becomes apparent. If you vaccinate hopefully they will not show signs of disease but they could still become infected. Consequently, once you start you are into an annual vaccination of all the birds in your loft. Vaccinating part of the loft is not an option - all or nothing. You will start vaccinating as and when you get the disease. There will be those that never vaccinate and do not seem to have a problem. for me I do not want to take the risk. good luck, David

The product you refer to is no longer available "Ridsol". However, the active ingredient has been put up in pigeon form by various suppliers now. Firstly, buy from a reputable source, ensure it is a branded pharmacy or vet product. It should specify the active ingredient, it's concentration, recommended usage rate and should have some Batch number and expiry date. Secondly, if the label is not in english well .... I think it is more important to check for worms at this time. Best wishes, David

I will add my name to your list. Northern Hygiene is very good. If I can help then let me know. PM me if you wish. I only use UKAS accredited and DEFRA approved labs. for dropping samples does not really matter where you are in the country. Best wishes, David

It all depends on whether or not you have been unfortunate to suffer from Paratyphoid. The vaccine will give long term protection whilst the parastop at best will give protection whilst on treatment and for a few days after. It may also make the birds more susceptible to picking up any infection left in dirt and dust in the loft. Salmonella will survive a year or more in dust. If they were my birds and I would use the vaccine. For clients that are just starting down this road I also advise 3 or 5 days of amoxycillin before vaccination. David

No combined vaccine licensed in the UK. The two available products are PMV - either Colombovac PMV Paramyxovirus vaccine or Nobilis Paramyxo P201 and Paratyphoid - Colombovac Paratyphus Suspension for injection for pigeons. David

Seems a shame to have to go the states so you prompted me to do this. http://www.poultryhealthcentre.com/seminars/vacinatepigeon.php with all the other good advice may help.

Might be a short lived contribution then

I am delighted to learn that and my apologies. Fair few lady vet students at Bristol to. Not like that in my student days Thank you, much appreciated.

Interesting how these posts go 1. Comments on Streptococcus, I would agree with. Amoxycillin Yes, Baytril No. Emphasises the importance of making a diagnosis. 2. Eradication of PMV - I think this is a little optimistic. Pigeon PMV is out in wood pigeons, doves and on the continent (could be unwittingly brought back with purchases). What could be achieved is absence of disease in your loft. All I can say is that, in those lofts I have been involved with, where every bird gets vaccinated each year we have not had a problem. All fingers, toes well and truly crossed. Could be just luck but I would hope not. 3. More than one vaccination a year. Many of you probably already do vaccinate some birds twice in a year, namely this years youngsters. However, if I had had a problem in a loft or flew in a problem area. I might think about vaccinating twice especially young birds that are vaccinated young.

Seem to have drifted from Paratyphus to PMV and back again. At this time the only licensed products for both PMV and Paratyphus in pigeons are dead vaccines. The poultry producer has access to live and dead vaccines for both PMV and Salmonella. There are advantages to using both either or both depending on your circumstances. Regrettably, no one size fits all. However, as far as I am aware there is only one disease that has been eradicated, well not found for a very long time anyway, and that is small pox. Otherwise in general terms vaccines will not eradicate disease but enable you to live in an environment where the disease is present without being clinically ill. You may still become infected and you may still shed infection but at a much lower rate than a fully susceptible bird. I am saddened but not surprised to read some of the comments. David

Most kind gentlemen. A pleasure to be here. David

In reverse order. 1. If slugs go over areas that are contaminated with dust or droppings that harbour paratyphoid then yes they could infect susceptible birds if eaten. 2. Agree 100% - tapeworms would be my biggest worry bt there are also strains of hairworm that require an intermediate host but again it could simply be that eggs have stuck to the slug and were eaten with the slug. David

1. Re paratyphus the only licenced vaccine in the UK is the dead Colombovac. I did at the beginning of the year to import Chevivac S as I had been the previous 2 years when Colombovac was not available and our Veterinary Medicines Directorate (VMD) refused it because there was a licenced product. 2. I got on alright with the Chevivac S with no noticeable problems after vaccination. 3. Re dead versus live the will they work - if both have gone through the VMD then there will documentation to confirm that it will do what it says on the label. 4. I would prefer one vaccination. However you still have to vaccinate each year. However, I am not prepared to be struck off David

Many thanks for this. Just thought someone might have a personal contact. But you are right will trawl the internet as well.

Notes - VACCINATING THE RACING PIGEON Introduction. Pigeons can be vaccinated against two diseases - pigeon paramyxovirus infection and pigeon pox. Vaccinating pigeons is a mass vaccination programme with several hundred being vaccinated at one time. In a well organised system it is possible to vaccinate hundred pigeons against paramyxovirus infection and pox in an hour. Vaccinating guns will be used and one needle may be used to vaccinate 25 or more pigeons. Good vaccinating practices are required. Whilst you may not wish to do the vaccinating, you do have a responsibility to ensure that the pigeon owner is aware of the correct procedures. Key Points Poor vaccination practices occur which may result in death of the pigeon or susceptibility to natural infection. Vaccination site There is an extensive web of veins under the skin which extends down the back and sides of the neck. This is more noticeable in the cock than the hen. It stops at the base of the neck. Mortality has resulted from the inadvertent injection of vaccine into the veins. Death usually occurs within an hour of vaccination. Hence, when administering vaccines, it is important to inject as near to the base of the neck as possible with the needle pointing towards the tail. Aseptic technique Withdrawing the vaccine from the bottle Always have one needle that stays in the vaccine bottle that is only used for withdrawing vaccine. The other needles can be used to inject your birds. This stops you inadvertently contaminating the vaccine with dirt from the pigeons skin. Cleaning the skin In the authors experience, the use of surgical spirit at the injection site has two major benefits. Firstly, it sanitises the injection site. Secondly, it dampens the feathers around the vaccination site resulting in a clear view for the administration of the vaccine. Surgical spirit does not stain the feathers and will rapidly evaporate in warm weather. In the short term, if a pigeon is represented for vaccination, this is quite obvious. Cleaning the needle One needle will often be used to vaccinate several pigeons ( 1 to several hundred). This may be the cause of problems. When using the Nobilis Paramyxo vaccine it is recommended that you sterilise the needle between pigeons. The importance of sanitising the needle between birds should be stressed. However, DO NOT do this with Colombovac PMV or PMV/Pox. Neither do I recommend it when using Chevivac-S (paratyphoid vaccine). The reason for this is that the latter 2 vaccines have a live component that could be killed by the sterilising solution. Hygiene will be improved by using a new sterile needle for every basket of birds. Very expensive birds or birds that are special for other reasons should be brought to the vaccinators attention so that a new needle can be used for that bird. Nobilis paramyxo When using Nobi-Vac Paramyxo, this can easily be done using a sponge soaked in surgical spirit contained in a small pot. The needle can be dipped in this in between birds. Colombovac and Colombovac + Pox The manufacturer does not recommend dipping the needle in surgical spirit between birds. This is particularly important when vaccinating against Pox. The surgical spirit will kill the Pox vaccine. Points to watch 1. The stress of vaccination can be reduced by giving a soluble multivitamin preparation from the day prior to vaccinating to the day after vaccination. 2. Advise that the birds are not exercised the day of vaccination. Birds that have been given the live pox vaccine should not be mixed with non vaccinated birds for 6 weeks. 3. Do not vaccinate unhealthy birds. 4. Dirty technique may resulting in vaccination abscesses . 5. Vaccinating hens due to lay may result in retained eggs. Problems associated with poor vaccination technique Injection abscesses These are the result of faecal contamination of the needle. The needle can be contaminated by two methods. Firstly, it is dropped onto pigeon faeces. A limited number of needles will be supplied with a bottle of vaccine and if this occurs with the last one, there is little choice but to continue. Secondly, catching and holding the pigeon will inevitably result in the handlers hands becoming contaminated with faeces. You will often see the fancier spit on a faeces covered ring to clean it so that the number can be read and checked off the vaccinating sheet. The same fingers may then be used to pull the feathers back to allow the vaccinator to see the injection site. This simple and normal procedure can quickly contaminate the skin. Clinical signs associated with injection abscesses This is a clinical problem that is reported occasionally. The abscess being detected from about 7 to 28 days after vaccination depending on the vigilance of the owner. This author suspects that it may occur more frequently as a subclinical problem that is responsible for leaving pigeons under par. The initial signs will be lethargy, inappetance, reluctance to fly and a hunched up appearance. The feathers over the injection site may be seen to be standing up as the swelling enlarges. If left untreated the abscess will enlarge and the bird may die. Bacteriology In one investigation, aerobic and anaerobic culture from abscesses regularly yielded Streptococcus faecalis. In addition Clostridium perfringens, Bacteroides oralis and E.coli were isolated. The former two, both being toxin producers were recovered from birds that had died. These are all associated with faecal contamination. A further small study of the skin of eight healthy pigeons from four lofts failed to yield any anaerobes but did yield four cultures of Staphylococcus epidermidis. The remaining four were sterile. However, examination of the skin of four birds from a loft with a wet dropping problem yielded positive aerobic cultures of Streptococcus faecalis, Staphylococcus epidermidis and Lactobacillus spp. from all the birds. (Personal communication Dr.A-M. Farmer, Intervet UK Ltd.). All inactivated vaccines contain adjuvants. The inoculation of bacteria with the vaccine is likely to predispose to abscess formation. Looked better on my original - David Notes - VACCINATING THE RACING PIGEON Introduction. Pigeons can be vaccinated against two diseases - pigeon paramyxovirus infection and pigeon pox. Vaccinating pigeons is a mass vaccination programme with several hundred being vaccinated at one time. In a well organised system it is possible to vaccinate hundred pigeons against paramyxovirus infection and pox in an hour. Vaccinating guns will be used and one needle may be used to vaccinate 25 or more pigeons. Good vaccinating practices are required. Whilst you may not wish to do the vaccinating, you do have a responsibility to ensure that the pigeon owner is aware of the correct procedures. Key Points Poor vaccination practices occur which may result in death of the pigeon or susceptibility to natural infection. Vaccination site There is an extensive web of veins under the skin which extends down the back and sides of the neck. This is more noticeable in the cock than the hen. It stops at the base of the neck. Mortality has resulted from the inadvertent injection of vaccine into the veins. Death usually occurs within an hour of vaccination. Hence, when administering vaccines, it is important to inject as near to the base of the neck as possible with the needle pointing towards the tail. Aseptic technique Withdrawing the vaccine from the bottle Always have one needle that stays in the vaccine bottle that is only used for withdrawing vaccine. The other needles can be used to inject your birds. This stops you inadvertently contaminating the vaccine with dirt from the pigeons skin. Cleaning the skin In the authors experience, the use of surgical spirit at the injection site has two major benefits. Firstly, it sanitises the injection site. Secondly, it dampens the feathers around the vaccination site resulting in a clear view for the administration of the vaccine. Surgical spirit does not stain the feathers and will rapidly evaporate in warm weather. In the short term, if a pigeon is represented for vaccination, this is quite obvious. Cleaning the needle One needle will often be used to vaccinate several pigeons ( 1 to several hundred). This may be the cause of problems. When using the Nobilis Paramyxo vaccine it is recommended that you sterilise the needle between pigeons. The importance of sanitising the needle between birds should be stressed. However, DO NOT do this with Colombovac PMV or PMV/Pox. Neither do I recommend it when using Chevivac-S (paratyphoid vaccine). The reason for this is that the latter 2 vaccines have a live component that could be killed by the sterilising solution. Hygiene will be improved by using a new sterile needle for every basket of birds. Very expensive birds or birds that are special for other reasons should be brought to the vaccinators attention so that a new needle can be used for that bird. Nobilis paramyxo When using Nobi-Vac Paramyxo, this can easily be done using a sponge soaked in surgical spirit contained in a small pot. The needle can be dipped in this in between birds. Colombovac and Colombovac + Pox The manufacturer does not recommend dipping the needle in surgical spirit between birds. This is particularly important when vaccinating against Pox. The surgical spirit will kill the Pox vaccine. Points to watch 1. The stress of vaccination can be reduced by giving a soluble multivitamin preparation from the day prior to vaccinating to the day after vaccination. 2. Advise that the birds are not exercised the day of vaccination. Birds that have been given the live pox vaccine should not be mixed with non vaccinated birds for 6 weeks. 3. Do not vaccinate unhealthy birds. 4. Dirty technique may resulting in vaccination abscesses . 5. Vaccinating hens due to lay may result in retained eggs. Problems associated with poor vaccination technique Injection abscesses These are the result of faecal contamination of the needle. The needle can be contaminated by two methods. Firstly, it is dropped onto pigeon faeces. A limited number of needles will be supplied with a bottle of vaccine and if this occurs with the last one, there is little choice but to continue. Secondly, catching and holding the pigeon will inevitably result in the handlers hands becoming contaminated with faeces. You will often see the fancier spit on a faeces covered ring to clean it so that the number can be read and checked off the vaccinating sheet. The same fingers may then be used to pull the feathers back to allow the vaccinator to see the injection site. This simple and normal procedure can quickly contaminate the skin. Clinical signs associated with injection abscesses This is a clinical problem that is reported occasionally. The abscess being detected from about 7 to 28 days after vaccination depending on the vigilance of the owner. This author suspects that it may occur more frequently as a subclinical problem that is responsible for leaving pigeons under par. The initial signs will be lethargy, inappetance, reluctance to fly and a hunched up appearance. The feathers over the injection site may be seen to be standing up as the swelling enlarges. If left untreated the abscess will enlarge and the bird may die. Bacteriology In one investigation, aerobic and anaerobic culture from abscesses regularly yielded Streptococcus faecalis. In addition Clostridium perfringens, Bacteroides oralis and E.coli were isolated. The former two, both being toxin producers were recovered from birds that had died. These are all associated with faecal contamination. A further small study of the skin of eight healthy pigeons from four lofts failed to yield any anaerobes but did yield four cultures of Staphylococcus epidermidis. The remaining four were sterile. However, examination of the skin of four birds from a loft with a wet dropping problem yielded positive aerobic cultures of Streptococcus faecalis, Staphylococcus epidermidis and Lactobacillus spp. from all the birds. (Personal communication Dr.A-M. Farmer, Intervet UK Ltd.). All inactivated vaccines contain adjuvants. The inoculation of bacteria with the vaccine is likely to predispose to abscess formation. Looked better on my original - David

thanks for that. David

Next month I am fortunate enough to visiting poultry farms in India with some friends. I do not know whether pigeons are kept or raced in India. Any information that you can supply would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, David

Not sure about the "curtain" at the back of the throat acting as a fan. I believed the fringe on the back and possibly the curtain itself to be important in ensuring that food goes the correct way. The panting in very hot birds can continue on as the "Gular flutter". In this instance, air is taken into the oesophagus (throat) which has a very good blood supply. this allows heat to be transferred directly from the body to the air. This is a trick utilised by pigeons and doves as well as other birds such as quail and pelicans. this enables the bird to lose heat without upsetting respiration. However, as a result of these posts I had a close look at the cleft whilst checking birds for canker. If you alter the pressure with which you hold the upper beak you can actually alter the gap in the cleft. So like all things, provided you do it the same way every time then it may have some meaning. I would suspect that other factors would also be taken into account knowingly or otherwise which together with the appearance of the cleft is indicative of a birds form. David