Breeding Better Pigeons

[Guest darren cantrill]

how do we breed better pigeons? is there a guaranteed way of improving our colonies?can we by following line breeding inbreeding or the art of outcrossing specific pigeons improve our pigeons? i for one believe we can. most families of pigeons start with a base breeding pair over many years of constant inbreeding and line breeding we begin to mould a pigeon to type with the influence of the basket the cream of this family comes to the fore and we breed these pigeons back into our colony eventually the gentics and time take there toll on our colony and results dip many great lofts have suffered this dip and its the colonies creater the owner who has to source the right blood to kick start the genetics in his colony if i inbreed say father to daughter brother to sister i mess with the genetics of my birds to such a point i get more bad pigeons than good if i line breed i eventually come to cul de sacs no through routes and the blood that once pushed the pigeons to the front in races now makes them mediocre now on my reckoning i would need an outcross so my fellow pigeon fanatics were and how would you source an outcross? would you go back to the beginning were you sourced your base pairs or would you go to say 2 or 3 winning lofts and attempt to cross them in and do it on a trial and error basis i ask because i have been lucky enough to aquire a base family of pigeons that have in the past swept all before them now though still potent i feel they are on the wain how do i kickstart this family of pigeons?

 

 

[Guest geordiejen]

hi mate there is no guaranteed way of breeding pigeons to get what you want.there isnt any racing pigeon fancier who sets out to breed average pigeons.there is every chace you have the birds already in your loft to achieve what you are looking for.any advice i would give you is to learn from the guys who are winning or doing well at the races.find out what methods they use,how the birds are kept,trained,fed,watered,when they get meds to keep the nasties away.ive been keeping pigeons for 10 years and im still learning and changing things.dont be too hasty on changing your birds because you think they are no good or as good as you would like them to be.buy racing pigeon books,look up various fanciers on you tube,see how they have there loft designed and take from all these things what you think will make an improvement.your the best judge on your birds and just basically do what you think's right.be patient and change things around until things come good.all the best mate.

[Guest Owen]

I don't think that there is a sure fired way of breeding performance livestock. If there were the race horse and greyhound people would be on to it by now. I think that the way forward is through selection for the least number of factors possible as a basis for a breeding programme. I do not think that inbreeding is much help because of the reduction of vitality that follows which is the very thing needed by performance creatures.

It has to be through fair and thorough progeny testing followed by selection. I also think that the best route is through the male line which is much easier to use because we can mate one cock to many hens.

The least number of factors I can come up with are to select for sprinters, middle distance or distance birds and nothing else. Not colour, or any of those theories literally nothing else. The major discipline placed on the Breeder is to ensure that all potential breeders are tried and tested before there is any thought of breeding from them.

By doing things this way I am sure that you will find that you will need to cull far less birds than if you inbred or line bred. Besides inbreeding decreases diversity in a species when we want greater diversity so that we can take advantage of any beneficial genes that are bound to be thrown up by mating successful performers together.

[dal2]

I don't think that there is a sure fired way of breeding performance livestock. If there were the race horse and greyhound people would be on to it by now. I think that the way forward is through selection for the least number of factors possible as a basis for a breeding programme. I do not think that inbreeding is much help because of the reduction of vitality that follows which is the very thing needed by performance creatures.

It has to be through fair and thorough progeny testing followed by selection. I also think that the best route is through the male line which is much easier to use because we can mate one cock to many hens.

The least number of factors I can come up with are to select for sprinters, middle distance or distance birds and nothing else. Not colour, or any of those theories literally nothing else. The major discipline placed on the Breeder is to ensure that all potential breeders are tried and tested before there is any thought of breeding from them.

By doing things this way I am sure that you will find that you will need to cull far less birds than if you inbred or line bred. Besides inbreeding decreases diversity in a species when we want greater diversity so that we can take advantage of any beneficial genes that are bound to be thrown up by mating successful performers together.

 

No!

I am sorry Owen but this just aint true!!! You might be a huge hit sprinting with your winner to winner theory!! Where do you go from a small loft with no winners?

 

Whats this about POTENTIAL BREEDERS???? You dont have any PROTENTIAL BREEDERS???? JUST WINNERS???

 

You dont inbreed or line breed?????? HOW does that work????? Do you introduce a new family every year???? Surely not???? So breeding winner to winner from one family is not line breeding????? Come on mate!!! You are telling us not to tell the new fanciers of the old ways handed down thru the generations then this !!!!!!

[Guest Owen]

dal2

well I know the view from the bottom of the sheet really well believe me. So I had to find a way of dealing with the situation and this is what I did. I had no winners to use as breeders but I did have good homers. One of which was very well bred with a van Rijn sire and The Yorkshireman's daughter was his dam. I had other pigeons some of which I had bought in and some were very consistant homers.

i contacted Mike Amrmitage of the Lion Brewery London, on Keith Mott's advice, to ask him about the Bull System. He explained how it was done so I set the loft up and tried it.

The cock was mated to 11 hens in all and he filled every egg so I had 22 youngsters all of which looked good. I trained and raced these youngsters and lost some almost straight away while others performed well and 2 were very good. The second round that year was from the feeder cocks. I carried on like that for 2 years and i then bought a cock with a lot of seriously good performances behind him. He came from a guy called The Burgamister who wrote a column in the BHW and was selling up. The Cock, Basil by name, became a Bull Cock and he made an impact straight away with a Fed winner in the first YB race. Now because I race widowhood I had plenty of unrelated hens to mate both of these cocks to and I also had a white cock that had won several sprint races.

About this time although I was winning races I decided that my loft was not good enough so I gave some pigeons from the original cock away to good flyers around the area. These birds were very successful and some won at National level. One of them won 3rd National this year for Kevin Smith of Talywaun. So after experimenting with the loft I built a new one and things really changed from there.

As I said before I do not breed from non winners but I will use hens that have not won races providing that they are out of the best cocks. If you want to improve there are things you must do and aquiring very good pigeons is only one of them. I don't have time right now because I need to get to bed ready for a heavy day tomorrow but if you want me to list this stuff for you I will do it later in the week. What I will say is that once you find the routine and stick to it you will find that the birds will turn in great performances without you having to work your guts out.

[Guest maricelbill]

firstly Owen, outcrossing is not an art. secondly there is a sure fire way of breeding winners, you get hold of by any means you can, quality stock and use common sense. it is important to understand not every pigeon can be a 1st prize winner. there are simply too many pigeons per 1st spot.

 

I think Owen you spelled out what you did admirably. you introduced better stock, introduced a breeding philosophy which works for you, you improved your loft all of which points to a fancier whose dander was up and was determined to succeed.

So there is a sure fire way. As has just been demonstrated.

[Guest bluemorning]

got to say i admire owens complete honesty in all his posts,willing to share how he has done things and his posts are well worth a read keep up the good work mate.

[soupie]

got to say i admire owens complete honesty in all his posts,willing to share how he has done things and his posts are well worth a read keep up the good work mate.

 

totally agree, i really enjoy reading about owens down to earth approach and posts. very informative.

 

keep at it mate

 

 

soupie

[Guest Owen]

Thanks for the compliments lads. I want to help people who are struggling if I can because this is a sport and most people want to win races. And yes I am a stuborn determined Cus and I hate being the loser at any sport. I think pigeon racing is fairly straight forward providing you look at the details that make up the pattern that you need to win.

Like most things in life the best results come as result of paying attention to detail and coverting everything into a routine.

Most people know what they want to do but do not know how to set about it. It is the setting about it bit that I can try to help with. Perhaps at this stage I should warn people that there is much I don't know. I know little or nothing about racing hens, natural, or distance. My strong points are racing youngsters, widowhood and celibate cocks, breeding and probably my best asset, training.

[dal2]

dal2

well I know the view from the bottom of the sheet really well believe me. So I had to find a way of dealing with the situation and this is what I did. I had no winners to use as breeders but I did have good homers. One of which was very well bred with a van Rijn sire and The Yorkshireman's daughter was his dam. I had other pigeons some of which I had bought in and some were very consistant homers.

i contacted Mike Amrmitage of the Lion Brewery London, on Keith Mott's advice, to ask him about the Bull System. He explained how it was done so I set the loft up and tried it.

The cock was mated to 11 hens in all and he filled every egg so I had 22 youngsters all of which looked good. I trained and raced these youngsters and lost some almost straight away while others performed well and 2 were very good. The second round that year was from the feeder cocks. I carried on like that for 2 years and i then bought a cock with a lot of seriously good performances behind him. He came from a guy called The Burgamister who wrote a column in the BHW and was selling up. The Cock, Basil by name, became a Bull Cock and he made an impact straight away with a Fed winner in the first YB race. Now because I race widowhood I had plenty of unrelated hens to mate both of these cocks to and I also had a white cock that had won several sprint races.

About this time although I was winning races I decided that my loft was not good enough so I gave some pigeons from the original cock away to good flyers around the area. These birds were very successful and some won at National level. One of them won 3rd National this year for Kevin Smith of Talywaun. So after experimenting with the loft I built a new one and things really changed from there.

As I said before I do not breed from non winners but I will use hens that have not won races providing that they are out of the best cocks. If you want to improve there are things you must do and aquiring very good pigeons is only one of them. I don't have time right now because I need to get to bed ready for a heavy day tomorrow but if you want me to list this stuff for you I will do it later in the week. What I will say is that once you find the routine and stick to it you will find that the birds will turn in great performances without you having to work your guts out.

 

 

Ye thanks for that!

 

Owen you must start somewhere, yes, like you did with your first cock on the Bull?? Unproven, yes??

 

So come on mate, novices or fanciers wanting to develop and improve must put their faith in the pedigree or information about the fanily it comes from?

 

So winners to winners to start is impossible and you then have to make a judgement call on the blood you bring in?

 

How do you pick a pigeon from a loft where you have no knowledge of breeding or form? What kinds of things do you go for?

[Guest maricelbill]

surely the answer is you do not pick a pigeon from a loft you know nothing about. you do your homework, you learn the craft of breeding racing pigeons, then racing them, it's a process. even terrific winning pigeons get lost. or breed duds.

i'm lost as to what it is you are trying to ask here. pigeon racing isn't a mystery. good stock. good housekeeping. a recognition things can and do go wrong. an acceptance the other guy is trying just as hard as you. there are no secrets. no substitutes for hard work and a true passion for your sport. if there is an X factor to pigeon racing is is that, Passion.

[dal2]

surely the answer is you do not pick a pigeon from a loft you know nothing about. you do your homework, you learn the craft of breeding racing pigeons, then racing them, it's a process. even terrific winning pigeons get lost. or breed duds.

i'm lost as to what it is you are trying to ask here. pigeon racing isn't a mystery. good stock. good housekeeping. a recognition things can and do go wrong. an acceptance the other guy is trying just as hard as you. there are no secrets. no substitutes for hard work and a true passion for your sport. if there is an X factor to pigeon racing is is that, Passion.

What I am trying to ask is that there maybe a certain body shape, size that Owen may go for!! Even if you went to a proven loft full of winners how would you select a yb from them?

 

Your comment about terrific pigeons getting lost or breeding duds is exactly my point! If you read Owens posts you will note that he does not like/prefer unproven stock, thats his prerogative, but as you rightly point out good birds breed poor pigeons sometimes?? Thats what I am trying to find out, there must be a selection process at the very start?

[just ask me]

the selection process for is for me is result based i let the basket select the type i bring in a few birds most years the selection process for this is a small time fancier getting results especially when hes in bad location so reading of results is most important as i feel sometimes the best loft performance or bird may not be the winner the of the race due to loft location and wind etc

 

what i like to see is a fancier getting in the fed results when others in his club find it hard to get on the result

 

i do cross birds but most of my team would have the breeding of 3 or 4 birds from the stock loft

 

 

i have yet to had a person pick out my best birds in the stock loft or pick out my current best racers

 

so i let the basket decide what goes in my stock loft

[Guest darren cantrill]

ok i get the drift so out of my pigeons i had 5 prize winners all scored on the fed i also have 1 pigeon who has scored topped the fed and numerous other prizes hes a cock pigeon fantastic breeding nest sister also topped the fed for someone else i will breed him with everything of value hen wise wich is everything cause got to be honest the duds have gone!i also have 3 class stock hens all bred fed winners do i pair them to their original cocks or do i go for it and pair him with these hens?im in 2 minds its the only thing im unsure of i know what sorts them out afterwards i just hate being stuck in 2 minds i know its the hatred of failing and i understand we all have different ideas its just enlightening to hear other peoples theories and ideas

[Wiley]

If he's topped the federation and a multiple scorer and so is his siblings, I'd personally breed around this cock. I'd pair him to the absolute best if you say you have three stock hens that have bred fed winners in my opinion he'd go with them. However if you haven't got what you feel is equal quality in your race team, you will have to weigh up the odds as there's no quareentee he will be a breeder of quality birds, and you cannot burn the candle at both ends. I can only state what we do hear and it's using this process, we like fast maturing young birds. We house 10 pairs of Stock cocks and only actual 4 stock hens, we take the best young hens each year from our young bird team and they are paired to our Best Stock cocks. Consequently we like to pair Uncle to Neice we find this pairing successful. But we also house two families of birds here the Frank Taskers and the Gevaert Van Schoorise. So we also like crossings. Interestingly both families way back in the line go back to the same family of birds the Andre Diereck birds. But Franks family of birds are a series of crossings.

[Wiley]

I should have mentioned we do not race old hens which allows us to do this process.

[THE FIFER]

a good thread and posts, interesting reading well done all, keep it coming, http://forum.pigeonbasics.org/public/style_emoticons/default/emoticon-0137-clapping.gif

[Guest Owen]

I agree with wiley because you need to find birds that score racing to be able to breed top quality youngsters. I tried to buy birds but in the end I had to work with the best I had and build my team gradually. My system of breeding is very similar except I do not inbreed. I have nothing against inbreeding it is just that I want to have a wide variety of genes to select from and inbreeding will narrow down the available genes. I am willing to concede that once you are getting consistantly good pigeons inbreeding would be the best way to keep these genes in the loft. However, if anyone decides to inbreed they will find themselves having to cull so that the breeding will continually guided in the right direction.

[Wiley]

Owen, it's something that I can never get the grasp, the difference between line breeding and inbreeding, would you have a simple explanation?

[Wiley]

I should have stated my opinion of what I think is inbreeding, which would be Parent to child, or Full siblings. Line breeding in my opinion would be Uncle to Neice, Aunt to Nephew, half siblings, And cousins

[Guest Owen]

Yes Mate you are right. Inbreeding is when close relatives are mated together.

A lot of people will describe what is really line breeding as inbreeding which confuses the whole thing.

Have a look at the Thoroughbred Race Horse pedigrees. They are described as inbreeding but they are in fact line breeding.

The individuals you use in a breeding programme should only ever be the best you have so to use them in an inbreeding

programme is a really big decision, This is why I advocate the Bull System of breeding which allows you to use

a top Cock with many hens and then you can include related hens without risking the cock being wasted for a year.

If you think that inbreeding will benefit you you should try it out to see what actually happens rather than

trusting the word of anyone else. Most of the people I hear on this subject are only quoting what they have read

and are guessing.

[Guest H@wkBait]

to line breed out crossing is a must believe it or not

[mushroom]

A big pigeon may win on a day and distance that suits it, a small pigeon may win on a day and distance that suits it,big and small may win from 40 miles to 600 miles, only the basket will prove any theory.If your looking for a guaranteed way to breed them I wish you luck.

[St Finnan Loft]

Owen, it's something that I can never get the grasp, the difference between line breeding and inbreeding, would you have a simple explanation?

 

I always think along these lines without getting to complicated the goal of inbreeding is to increase uniformity, the goal of line breeding is to increase the contribution of a common ancestor.

Good post.

[gordi.b]

christ joe didn,t know you were a scientist !!