Hold Over Twaddle.

[Roland]

You know, the thread regards Eastbourne hold over is so sad!

It shows exactly why there is the decline in the ability of the birds, their constitution and all that makes / made this sport of ours so great. Too many want Sprints and blow homes, where paper bags can win. YET! Still the losses accumulate each year. Why? Only one answer to why and that's BECAUSE!

Because of the simple reality of them molly cuddling birds! Not allowing the Good birds to show their’ worth and shine through! To let and allow the Basket and weather sort the wheat from the chaff. Because too many wish to house 'Paper Bags' and sprint birds and have a false notion of costs!! They’d rather house 3 times as many as needed and whinge about losses, giving allsorts of reasons for their’ losses etc. Your first loss is always your best loss! Simple fact that, and very cost effective!

Hasn't they twigged that ALL good and decent birds derive from Distance birds of proven worth!

That all good family descend from proven hard day and distance birds! fact!

A bad bird cost more in fact to keep than a half decent one, let alone a good one! Fact!

Hardly a breeze here! Would be a job to fly a kite here, so Eastbourne should have been up early. We must allow every bird a chance to home on day, granted! They would have easily if the lack of balls, and members back – lash wasn’t worrying the Conveyers and Secs of clubs.

One thing for sure, if one keeps fodder that falls at the first breeze, hard day, they will never be a name to be reckoned with.

Yep these sad lot are bringing down the calibre, constitution of our birds every season. And whinge more about losses because of it!

[BrianP]

Roland that is my point exactly. Birds should not be heldover because the wind is too strong.

 

See my post regarding Holding the birds at Eastbourne.

[TOMTHEBOMB]

the first time in the history of the snfc to hold over for the wind.

[Guest BRYANBROCK]

the first time in the history of the snfc to hold over for the wind.

 

personally i think it right decision yesterday to hold with the wind being so strong i think if they went up yeterday from eastbourne there would be a lot of birds in france right now

[Guest IB]

People seem to see only what they want to. Read again the weather reports on the east side of the country that p/basics members posted on Saturday, then read the returns for the organisations that did race into Scotland on Saturday (they got wiped out). In my opinion that says SNFC got it right, and the others didn't.

[The Navigator]

personally i think it right decision yesterday to hold with the wind being so strong i think if they went up yeterday from eastbourne there would be a lot of birds in france right now

 

 

If they would have ended up in France then they are no good. Like the writer of this article and I am only giving an opinion, to me the birds should have been liberated and like the guy says, it would have sorted out the best from the rest.

 

But you have to respect what the SNFC committee have done as fanciers put them in these positions.

[Roland]

The Navigator yep you do have to respect what the SNFC committee have done as fanciers put them in these positions.

I do. Believe sadly that in too many cases the wise and knowledgeable, expierenced fanciers have to cow wow to the 'Joy Riders' whims.

Too many say, as YOU have all heard, 'I stop my youngsters at 150 miles etc. - My birds won't do over 350 - 400 miles etc.' Of course not, they aren't sent. Too many would rather keep and feed culls, breed more culls from them than rather give them a chance. Too many believe what the bit of paper says and expect that is enough to win. Waste of time, effort and money as far as I'm concerned.

Them bits of paper are only as good as the fancier writing them is honest. Only any good if tried and tested before being bred from.

When in Canada I watch y/b's doing over 400 miles for 3 weeks back to back. Strangely bred from our, and Belguim imports!

Remember Gary Edmunds saying, and I know he would have held his own anywhere in the world., no two ways about that, saying 'Roly you have a younster that has won two feds in current season. Comes to the longest race it looks, and acts superb. Do you send it, or keep it back for another day' etc. I said 'I'd send it'. 'Of course' was his answer 'You must only send the best to do the job. No good in loft when fit and able' Any way might breed duds, or get shot, or lost next week, season'! How true. But unless their constitution is challenged. The mettle and fibre show, and after a few enduring races are still in the loft.... Time to sort out which will be going and making room for the next lot! Simply my own thoughts granted, but to win a blow home, and because it looks nice, hold it back and breed from it, is to be blunt rather silly.

Yep you get a loft load of culls breeding more culls and every season buy in more culls that you think will work wonders, because that 'Cull' untried, untested looks the part but is crap!

We have all had the one that didn't take your eye.especially when first first seasons are full of hope and dreams. (Normally the wise ones realise that it is but a dream). when others are held back whilst that one goes every week, through thick and thin. Gosh it often turns out to be a 'Good un' suprise, suprise. Yes it suprises you because them starlets have been blown away, lost on a 30 miles toss etc. - Hawks blamed etc. -

Maybe if them blown away had had a few more mettle races, trials and errors, tested they would still adorn the loft?!

[The Navigator]

The Navigator yep you do have to respect what the SNFC committee have done as fanciers put them in these positions.

I do. Believe sadly that in too many cases the wise and knowledgeable, expierenced fanciers have to cow wow to the 'Joy Riders' whims.

Too many say, as YOU have all heard, 'I stop my youngsters at 150 miles etc. - My birds won't do over 350 - 400 miles etc.' Of course not, they aren't sent. Too many would rather keep and feed culls, breed more culls from them than rather give them a chance. Too many believe what the bit of paper says and expect that is enough to win. Waste of time, effort and money as far as I'm concerned.

Them bits of paper are only as good as the fancier writing them is honest. Only any good if tried and tested before being bred from.

When in Canada I watch y/b's doing over 400 miles for 3 weeks back to back. Strangely bred from our, and Belguim imports!

Remember Gary Edmunds saying, and I know he would have held his own anywhere in the world., no two ways about that, saying 'Roly you have a younster that has won two feds in current season. Comes to the longest race it looks, and acts superb. Do you send it, or keep it back for another day' etc. I said 'I'd send it'. 'Of course' was his answer 'You must only send the best to do the job. No good in loft when fit and able' Any way might breed duds, or get shot, or lost next week, season'! How true. But unless their constitution is challenged. The mettle and fibre show, and after a few enduring races are still in the loft.... Time to sort out which will be going and making room for the next lot! Simply my own thoughts granted, but to win a blow home, and because it looks nice, hold it back and breed from it, is to be blunt rather silly.

Yep you get a loft load of culls breeding more culls and every season buy in more culls that you think will work wonders, because that 'Cull' untried, untested looks the part but is crap!

We have all had the one that didn't take your eye.especially when first first seasons are full of hope and dreams. (Normally the wise ones realise that it is but a dream). when others are held back whilst that one goes every week, through thick and thin. Gosh it often turns out to be a 'Good un' suprise, suprise. Yes it suprises you because them starlets have been blown away, lost on a 30 miles toss etc. - Hawks blamed etc. -

Maybe if them blown away had had a few more mettle races, trials and errors, tested they would still adorn the loft?!

 

I believe that molly cuddling pigeons over the years has seen a downturn in the strength in depth that we have now. Like you say too many are tail wind pigeons and dont have a brain or the heart to home.

[BrianP]

I notice that all the guys that are saying that the SNFC got it right yesterday, does that mean that the birds should have went today?

[Roland]

I think the general consensus of the Fancy is. 'I want the bird back’! This is strongly coupled with 'I don't care how good or bad it is ... If it is a cull, one that is blown home so be it. Then ‘………’ the price I paid for it, the stock it came, the person it came off means that it will, indeed should, breed winners.

Realism says that winners are few and far between. I see these races with 3000 or more, or Nationals, the Up North Combine etc. with great numbers of birds.

One only has to take the winners out of them, be it section or otherwise etc. Club and Fed winners etc. etc. to see what the percentage of also runs are!

Then how many are winners 2 - 6/7/8 times etc.

Now take mostly say the top 10% that one feels did well.... that still leaves a massive percentage that don't / didn't.

Yet still because of whims, dreams and costs etc. or whatever, they don’t want, won’t accept a testing, a natural means of eliminations to be used.

Other ‘Fields’ have a saying ‘others did… Yours weren’t good enough’ or words to that effect. Maybe some were hawked. Or whatever, but aren’t in the loft. Won’t breed fodder etc.

Gosh the ‘Names’ that has stated, wrote about, when they changed their regime to ‘Natural’ sauces and of one having to earn it’s perch. Of making gifts of good looking favourites etc.

Now I'm siding one way of another with any Liberation and the hassles these so called fancys have give to the convoyers. How they have contrved, and put preasure upon Secs, convoyers etc. etc. for them to fly their paper bags etc. But it is no more than an affront to those of us trying to cleanse and achieve a higher, more genuinse and better class of birds!

Like the manipulating of allowing a decent 'Middle Bird' or limited stamina, endurance or will to get home. Birds of weaker, and substandard to win so - called 'Distance' races. Like a 'Noon liberation' etc. But that is another topic eh!

[OLDYELLOW]

average speed of a pigeon 45 miles per hour gust of winds Saturaday 35 mph plus bit of a no brainer to me weather conditions of the sea even hit the national papers , this kind or racing does nothing for the sport as been said 414 miles no day birds nor did they have the chance been liberated at 8.00 1 bird in club , not heard of any others in fed , this is countamount to animal cruelty , the welfare of the birds must come first , its not soft paper bag racing its common sense the first bird was 10.25am the next day no other birds have made it through i wonder what returns the gya had as were liberated at same time , having 100's of birds stranded due to poor management of an organisation is shamefull to say the least those that held did the right thing , i thought the unc got it wrong with the conditions this morning however the wind dropped to half the speed of yesterday so in fairness day birds are possible and excatly what percentage of the birds made it home wouldn't be in a result under normal condiotions ????? very few indeed

[kirky]

average speed of a pigeon 45 miles per hour gust of winds Saturaday 35 mph plus bit of a no brainer to me weather conditions of the sea even hit the national papers , this kind or racing does nothing for the sport as been said 414 miles no day birds nor did they have the chance been liberated at 8.00 1 bird in club , not heard of any others in fed , this is countamount to animal cruelty , the welfare of the birds must come first , its not soft paper bag racing its common sense the first bird was 10.25am the next day no other birds have made it through i wonder what returns the gya had as were liberated at same time , having 100's of birds stranded due to poor management of an organisation is shamefull to say the least those that held did the right thing , i thought the unc got it wrong with the conditions this morning however the wind dropped to half the speed of yesterday so in fairness day birds are possible and excatly what percentage of the birds made it home wouldn't be in a result under normal condiotions ????? very few indeed

no day birds on day in wda or nehu yesterday earlest ive seen was 5am today.

[OLDYELLOW]

no day birds on day in wda or nehu yesterday earlest ive seen was 5am today.

hate to say i was right but a big organisation like the U.N.C Hundreds of top class fanciers some would be world class not having day birds tells it all they all arent certainly crap thats fer sure

[john cumming]

People seem to see only what they want to. Read again the weather reports on the east side of the country that p/basics members posted on Saturday, then read the returns for the organisations that did race into Scotland on Saturday (they got wiped out). In my opinion that says SNFC got it right, and the others didn't.

 

i agree the rite decision was made to hold the snfc birds to today just wish our fed had followed suit, our fed had a very bad race with only about 20 to 30 birds making it home on the night in the whole fed from leicester, at the end of the day its the birds that come first, the same principal occurs in other sports ie: football rugby & other out door pursutes if the weather is deemed to bad it is rescheduled, should be no different with pigeon racing?? my opinion

[Guest TAMMY_1]

i agree the rite decision was made to hold the snfc birds to today just wish our fed had followed suit, our fed had a very bad race with only about 20 to 30 birds making it home on the night in the whole fed from leicester, at the end of the day its the birds that come first, the same principal occurs in other sports ie: football rugby & other out door pursutes if the weather is deemed to bad it is rescheduled, should be no different with pigeon racing?? my opinion

 

agree with you mate ,looking at other fed returns it was spot on to hold them, the race control team did what they thought was best for the birds and hopefully it will be a good race for most

[Roland]

Well I hope I'm wrong, but I believe believe it may well be the case that many perches will be empty today. Let's hope all birds return safe and sound ... Culls and all!

[Craig05]

You know, the thread regards Eastbourne hold over is so sad!

It shows exactly why there is the decline in the ability of the birds, their constitution and all that makes / made this sport of ours so great. Too many want Sprints and blow homes, where paper bags can win. YET! Still the losses accumulate each year. Why? Only one answer to why and that's BECAUSE!

Because of the simple reality of them molly cuddling birds! Not allowing the Good birds to show their’ worth and shine through! To let and allow the Basket and weather sort the wheat from the chaff. Because too many wish to house 'Paper Bags' and sprint birds and have a false notion of costs!! They’d rather house 3 times as many as needed and whinge about losses, giving allsorts of reasons for their’ losses etc. Your first loss is always your best loss! Simple fact that, and very cost effective!

Hasn't they twigged that ALL good and decent birds derive from Distance birds of proven worth!

That all good family descend from proven hard day and distance birds! fact!

A bad bird cost more in fact to keep than a half decent one, let alone a good one! Fact!

Hardly a breeze here! Would be a job to fly a kite here, so Eastbourne should have been up early. We must allow every bird a chance to home on day, granted! They would have easily if the lack of balls, and members back – lash wasn’t worrying the Conveyers and Secs of clubs.

One thing for sure, if one keeps fodder that falls at the first breeze, hard day, they will never be a name to be reckoned with.

Yep these sad lot are bringing down the calibre, constitution of our birds every season. And whinge more about losses because of it!

 

Roland

spot on, i have had this debate on another web site and got shot down from the off. my opinion is that because the birds are wrapped in cotton wool with hold overs, on only being liberated on days that suits a fast easy race, the first time they do get one where they have to work to get home, the losses are huge. birds are simply not good enough, as they have previously just had to follow the rest of the pack to make it home and nine times out of ten, its the quickest bird to trap that wins it... i had 3 away to Bourges with the UNC this weekend. none of them have made it home yet. my opinion, they were not good enough.

[Guest spin cycle]

admittidly i'm not the most experienced fancier on here but my 'take is this'. the other week i put 12 cocks in a basket and sent them 350 miles, i was pleased with them...but on the sat morning i suddenly realised they were all my 'first team'...more than that they constituted 5 years work. if then, they'd gone up into bad conditions and a number had been lost it would have been a considerable loss to me. i'm not however that naive i know its a risk you take and also that you send first then look at the forecast...i ,however, realise that the race controllers also have an interest...they want me to get my birds so i can send them again. with this in mind the controlers first responsibility,IMO, must be to ensure that fanciers have the best chance of seeing their teams again .

[Roland]

Spin Cycle I know, and believe me appreciate, exactly what you are saying and where you’re coming from. This has bearings, of course it has. Yet I say, believe, this is the very root cause of so many inferior pigeons filling up our skies and churches and buildings.

However if one is realistic and honest, took stock, and account of just how many birds one loses in 5 years, the other side of the coin stands out!

Realistically speaking, if ones birds were tested, had the chance to prove them self 5 years ago, then the following yearlings would be breeding better birds. Next season likewise in year two, then year 3, 4 and so on and so forth. Now, the real facts are, as I see it, that one would have as many birds as now if wanted - probably a lot less in fact would be the order of the day - but a very much higher calibre of birds.

Birds where you could send with confidence nigh every week.

Indeed one would be able to get back to realism and basic. That being a team of 4 say, and each season birds having to prove their worth to get a perch, let alone a nest box. The sad part would be having to let go good birds go!

Now this was the way years ago, when if not home on a hard day, they would be mostly likely on the loft first thing in the morning… and certainly nigh over the next few days.

Now one would have to take into account and write it down the condition the bird was sent. The nest condition etc., W/H Hen – Cock bird etc. etc.. These would be a big factor come seasons end year in and year out, when one was having to make room, and hence cutting back on birds because you had too many.

When quality was far, far more important than Quantity and being COST effective was a must!

You know, outside of a smash or a fly away good fanciers have the same dilemma every season.

Many good lofts never have a stock loft. The all-importance allowance of Mr. Basket being able and allowed to do his’ job. The race program, plus with birds given the chance to gain experience, face winds and cold, rain etc. and show that A. they want to be home, and B. have been built up to have the constition to do the job, and not be an also ran when weather suits.

[Roland]

Further, I believe one shouldn't have a 1st team, let alone a second one! All birds should be equeal, just split into 1/2 or 1/3rd groups.

If I have a 2nd, or third team it would be because they were inferior to the first team.... and there'd have to be a flipping good reason why i was feeding them. JMO.

[Guest spin cycle]

Further, I believe one shouldn't have a 1st team, let alone a second one! All birds should be equeal, just split into 1/2 or 1/3rd groups.

If I have a 2nd, or third team it would be because they were inferior to the first team.... and there'd have to be a flipping good reason why i was feeding them. JMO.

 

 

thats a fair point roland. my use of 'first team' was colloquial really. the birds i had left comprised yearlings (which i'm still educating) and a couple of real sprint birds.my view ,also, is that if you split in halves/thirds don't you risk leaving the winner at home? if its a big race you send you're best (all of them) JMO

[Roland]

also, is that if you split in halves/thirds don't you risk leaving the winner at home?

 

That is one of the biggest faults in todays racing... birds must be prepare and sent to races that they are up to.

 

if its a big race you send you're best (all of them) JMO

Yep, and after 5 years, trials and testing, ALL should be of the highest possible calibre. And again a flexible agenda means you may have to switch which ones goe, due to Nest Circle, Or birds of colour etc. etc.

 

I never send to the first race, mostly not the 1st three or so. Because that means you may well be chasing #Averages, and I believe too many decent birds are lost through fanciers sending off coloured, ill, or over tired birds to win these. Hence is I win the Scottish averages I'm more than hapy. Likewise am out of the Combine averages etc. JMO.