Dead Pigeon-Non Fancier

[Diamond dave]

I have just been asked to deal with a dead pigeon from a neighbours garden ( not one of mine)

There are no apparent signs as to why this bird has died at all.

The people who found it have asked me to find out why it has died and if it is connected to AI. and where the bird has come from.

I was at pains to try to explain that our birds cant catch AI - but they were not taking in what I was saying - they even stepped back from me when I picked the bird up.

There is nothing outwardly visible why this bird should have died and frankly I am also a bit concerned!!!

Can anyone advise me of what I should do from here???

 

[Tony C]

Diamond dave, you know what neighbours are like, once the gossip mongers get going that'll be your pigeon found. Your in a position that none of us would like to be in and to be honest I couldn't tell you one way or the other what I would do. I would say that goes for everyone else. Bravado says stick it in the bin, common sense says report it. You just do what you think is right.

Good luck.

[Diamond dave]

Thanks Tony - I do want to deal with this in the correct manner but am not sure what I should do with the carcase - do I take it to a vet or do I have to inform Defra

directly or can I do it through the RPRA?

I would prefer not to have Defra here because that would really set the gossip mongers going ( I have visions of men in white coats and masks turning up).

If there is somewhere I can take the carcase then thats what I would prefer.

[Guest]

Dave,

 

This is just my personal opinion and what I would do under the circumstances.

This is an opportunity to prove to the members of the public that pigeon flyers are responsible people and care for the well being of their neighbours.

 

If I were in your shoes, I would try and find a vet who is on Sunday call and explain the circumstances and ask for his/her guidance, keeping your neighbours informed of what you are doing.

 

Please keep us updated, probably a case of the bird being freaked out by being chased by a hawk and having a heart attack

 

[Pompey Mick]

Diamond Dave, Check the DEFRA website www.defra.gov.uk and it will tell you it only wants to be notified if it is one or more dead swans or wildfowl, three birds of a single species or five birds of different species all in the same place. So you can tell your neighbour that as far as DEFRA are concerned there is no concern

[jimmy white]

i would phone up your union and ask them,, im quite sure they would advise

[Diamond dave]

Pompey - Good advice, thanks. Thats also put my mind at rest !! I have printed  

               off that defra statement to show them but I would also like to give them

               an official statement to say that pigeons cant get it - does anyone know

               where I can download it from?

Hyacinth - Thanks for that advice too, I intend to give them the defra

               statement and that of Gordon ???????? the vet. I also want to find

               out where the pigeon was from and the circumstances in which it

               went missing - by the end of it, I will of hoped to turn them into

               fanciers, least of all sympathisers!!!!

               I will also suggest your probable prognosis.

              

Tony -      I can now dispose of the carcase without worrying after Pompey

               Micks advice

 

Incidently, I wonder if the bird belongs to anyone on the PB network- it is

MNFC rung - GB05 Z 92816 Gay Pied - was a lovely bird. (wing stamped B420)            

[Pompey Mick]

TRy the RPRA website, click on News then Media , there is a press release which may be of some help. Also the defra website Kept birds> pigeons risk assessment might be helpful where it states that pigeons are low risk.

[Guest]

From your description or, more correctly lack of it, wouldn't think Avian Flu figures here.

 

But again from your description, your 'biosecurity' appears to be lacking; hope this wasn't a bare hands job.

 

And again from the posts, the public information 'bit' also seems to be lacking .. you don't touch anything suspicious, you phone the helpline and report it. Scottish number is 08459 335577.

 

[Guest]

This is the pigeon vets conclusion (30th November 2005) on Avian Flu and pigeons:

 

 

The Pigeon Vets Conclusion concerning Avian Influenza and pigeons

 

“If you read all the recent articles, I think there is one conclusion that is important.

 

Although the pigeons are very resistant to LPAI, there is a chance that they can become infected with HPAI, H5N1. This is confirmed by recent research. This means that we have to be careful in this matter concerning any AI outbreak.

 

Pigeons don’t play a very important role in the transmission of the AI, but not important doesn’t mean that they don’t play a role at all!

 

We don’t have to exaggerate the role of the pigeon in this matter at all, but don’t minimise it either!

 

I would like to conclude with the words of my friend Dr. Gordon Chalmers from Canada, which are almost the same as those from Dr. Paul Miller from USA, and also my opinion concerning this very hot item:

 

As pigeon fanciers and pigeon veterinarians, we have to be aware that there are some evidences that pigeons can be infected by the presently active Highly Pathogenic Avian Influenza H5N1.

 

This means that we have to be careful in the local areas in times of infection with that strain!

 

This means that quarantine could be very useful when a country or region is infected to protect against exposure from wild birds that could carry the virus.”

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest]

For information, this is what David Swayne, who has worked on H5N1 infections in pigeons, said about avian flu and pigeons:-

 

“It is unlikely that banning pigeons will have any impact on avian flu ecology and will not reduce the risk of infections of poultry or humans. The primary species that have natural infections with avian flu viruses are wild ducks and shorebird (turnstones, gulls, etc.). Columbiformes and passerines are not reservoirs and they are rarely incidental hosts following spill-over of the viruses from infected domestic poultry.

 

Some rebuttal to misinterpretation of my earlier statements.

 

1) My comments in the paragraph above refer to global ecology of Low Pathogenic Avian Influenza (LPAI) viruses, and are not specific to the Asian H5N1 High Pathogenic Avian Influenza (HPAI) virus. This is historically correct - pigeons are resistant to LPAI viruses and have not been involved in the ecology on a world-wide basis.

 

2) The banning of racing pigeons in a location that does not have the Asian H5N1 would have no impact of the broad ecology of AI viruses since they are not the natural hosts of wild bird LPAI viruses. This would be predominately some species of wild ducks and shorebirds. This does not mean that pigeons are not susceptible to some AI virus; i.e. Dr. Kaleta's comment on H7 infections. However, surveys of pigeons have shown either no natural infections or rare infections (except with Asian H5N1 HPAI virus where die-offs of pigeons and infections have been identified).

 

3) My research data in pigeons as cited in paragraph 3 above shows that pigeons can be susceptible to the more recent Asian H5N1 HPAI viruses. This was not the case with the 1997 Hong Kong H5N1 HPAI virus where the virus did not grow in pigeons after intranasal inoculation. This would indicate, in geographic areas with new Asian H5N1 HPAI viruses circulating in wild birds or poultry, restricting the flying of pigeons would be prudent for pigeon health and to prevent addition of a new vector of the virus in the specific region. But a world wide ban on flying pigeons is not supported by scientific information on ecology of LPAI viruses.

 

 

Thanks for bringing these misinterpretations to my attention and I would hope you would disseminate my response to other pigeon veterinarians and fanciers.”

 

 

Regards

David E. Swayne, DVM, PhD

Laboratory Director

 

 

In my opinion, these are excellent grounds on which we can appeal to public and governments alike and counter much of the current newspaper claptrap.

[Diamond dave]

Bruno,

Thanks for that info mate, but I think you have slightly misinterpreted the situation.

Lady phones me with a dead pigeon in her garden worried to death that the bird has got AI. I, knowing that pigeons dont die from AI, try to tell her this while examining the bird, still warm. (With gloves on as I dont want to take anything back to my own loft).

Having tried to reassure these people that it is not AI, I now want to try to back that up with some documentation.

I wasnt sure what to do with the carcase but it appears that defra would not be interested in this isolated incident anyway so I have buried it.

Now all I am trying to do is a PR job and put these peoples mind at rest.

[rockinrick]

excellent post diamond you have done wat anyone of us would have done and that is ask first  ,,, cheers m8 rockinrick

[Guest]

Bruno,

Thanks for that info mate, but I think you have slightly misinterpreted the situation ...

all I am trying to do is a PR job and put these peoples mind at rest.

 

 

 

Edited your post down Dave, ... agree with most of it, this is the bit I'm picking up on:

 

I know that it is a difficult call, Dave. My point was that as a person keeping birds, you and the rest of us are on the AI front line whether we like it or not. We need to be aware of the current DEFRA advice on finding dead birds, and the contact number, because we are likely to be the first that a neighbour might get in touch with .. happens with any lost or injured bird as it is.

 

And you won't find any documentation that pigeons don't die of AI - what you will find is that although pigeons are still considered to be fairly resistant, there is documented evidence that certain strains of H5N1 can infect and kill the odd one or two in the wild. So although I'm the first to agree that AI in racing pigeons is a long-shot, with H5N1 in Western Europe, you can't really be too prepared or too careful when you come across an unexplained death in any bird in the wild, even a racing pigeon..

 

And for the record, the only racing pigeon recovered dead in the wild in the UK in the current 'dead bird' surveillance, was tested and found to have died of blunt trauma / gunshot wounds.

[Diamond dave]

Fair comment Bruno - but now I am confused - I have checked out the Defra website as advised by Pompey Mick which states that they are not interseted in isolated cases and your advice is contradicting that statement. If you are suggesting we all be more vigilant then I must agree but surely not to counteract the Defra statement ?

From all of your previous postings on this subject, I think you are very well informed

and I would welcome your comments

Diamond

[Guest]

Fair comment Bruno - but now I am confused - I have checked out the Defra website as advised by Pompey Mick which states that they are not interseted in isolated cases and your advice is contradicting that statement. If you are suggesting we all be more vigilant then I must agree but surely not to counteract the Defra statement ?

From all of your previous postings on this subject, I think you are very well informed

and I would welcome your comments

Diamond

 

Sorry, didn't mean to sound as if I was contradicting DEFRA advice. Quite correct about the numbers of like species / different species of birds, and ordinarily not interested in one bird....

 

But watching a news item broadcast from our own Scottish Agricultural College at Ayr (our helpline), the scientist said that birds that die from H5N1 infection don't die in a very nice way. Try to imagine what a bird whose lungs were destroyed while it was still alive would look like. From your own description, obviously your own dead bird didn't look like that. Never seen a bird with AI, but somehow think that you'd know it when you saw it, and if it looked to you like AI and was only one bird, I'm sure DEFRA would be MORE than interested in it.

 

Basically repeating the vets advice ... be extra careful when H5N1 is about.

 

  

[Diamond dave]

Thanks Bruno.