How long a Strain?

[Roland]

I wonder if all the hype of these pure strains, they shape and sizes and merits go does the strain - name also go too?

When the name of ‘SO and So's’ birds renowned for their certain qualities are no longer visible or meriteous doe that mean A. they no longer process them and are they no longer - regardless of the papers - the real McCoy?

Consider also in this question that variation in a strain is not only introduced by the breeder, but also by nature, "chromosome crossover". If pigeons have an average chromosome crossover rate of "10%" in each generation...then left alone, in 7 generations a strain is no longer the original strain. This is like compounded interest. Depending on factors such as "chromosome crossover", without a fancier's consistent selection a strain or family of birds could look quite different left up to it's own devices. Each generation, "10%" of the birds may have changed from the original traits of the strain just by accounting for crossing over of a bird chromosome alone.

Lucky, I believe, we have the basket to help make a lot of these decisions...for us. I know I have birds from the great Janssen line, but I don't know what a Janssen is supposed to look like! It is likely that if my stupidity doesn't cull or I loose them all, I will have departed from the Janssen look and feel in no time at all... I have handled birds – supposedly from Jansenns loft direct,  - but sometimes one does have to go outside and check the grass is indeed still green - and their wedge like shape, and the bread was something I hadn’t ever seen before,  but they weren’t nowt to beat club wise let alone trail blazers, so in essence what would I have left, and when, or how soon lol.

 

[Roland]

Now as one knows - or flipping should do - that birds, many generation down the line, can look to all sense and purpose exactly like the 'Champion' it has - supposedly - derived from! Two peas in a podd like! Indeed an whole loft can look like the original TWO that they supposedly represent and are bred down from. What I want to know, and have crystal clear light is this regard, 'When DOES the looks take over the performance'? For so many ... In my view, in fact too many are fooled into thinking that it must be a throw back to the 'Great One' that they wish to but into!

Yet it is so easy to reproduce look - a - likes ... but performance a - likes is a different ball game I'd wager.

Now I know, as do many more, people of noted fame go to 'Sales' and purchase any thing that resembles the original of a certain 'Family / Strain that they - supposedly excel in!

Now think it through ''Even greats breed duds' and down the line much performance is lost - Then outside added vigour is needed! Me I'd never buy a bird that look great, let alone because it looks just like it's fore fathers.......!

[Roland]

Further, remembering that inbreeding (including linebreeding) is intended to fix characteristics. It will not improve what you start with. The Old Merckx bred the 019, 20 times 1st, the young Merckx, 21 times 1st, the Velo, multiple wins and sire to a 1st National winner (Klak Velo) and multiple other champions. In my opinion a bird worthy of line breeding to with the intent of breeding more like him. Your bird has bred 3 birds with zero wins but a few combine diplomas. Remembering that inbreeding fixes traits, does not improve on them, are you sure you want to line breed to that bird?

[Ronnie]

Thats something ive wondered on since i started this sport Roland.If a pigeon is a great pigeon all well and good but how will we ever get a better one if we are just aiming to breed the same one through line breeding.

Surely the ultimate goal is to better the pigeon(in a racing sense) not to clone it.

[ch pied]

hi roland , never botherd much about line /in breeding,when i have, never any closer than g sire- g daughter-----g dam--g son, then out crossed, i am alway's looking for a pair of basket proven bird's every other year, cock's/hen's , dosen't matter

[Pompey Mick]

How close is every Racing Pigeon related?  When you consider the origin of the racing pigeon in the early 1800's when Mons Ulens of Antwerp crossed the Rock-dove with other pigeon breeds, the Persian Carrier, the Tumbler and others, the original basic strain must have been quite small. The Ulens contributed greatly to the great Belgium dynastys. There were other types of racing pigeons developed in Belgium including the Liege and Verviers pigeons which were all eventually crossed to produce the modern racing pigeon we know today. How long has it been since the last introduction of a different type of pigeon to improve the racing pigeon as we know it?  The crossing of pigeons today is simply between fanciers, is it possible to obtain a true cross today where there is no blood relationship.

[Roland]

No disrespect Mick, but the Egyptians were using homing pigeons before even the greeks, let alone Julius Ceasar.

[Pompey Mick]

Thats very true Roland, as I mentioned the Persian Carrier played a very large part  ,but they were carrier type pigeons not the modern racing pigeon we see today. It is generally accepted that the modern pigeon is the result of cross breeding between several types of carrier pigeons and the rock-dove to produce a more racing shape and Mons Ulens was one of the pioneers of pigeon racing as we know it today, his birds are the basis of many of the early Belgium strains. This happened about 200 yrs ago. I woiuld like to know when the last time another species of pigeon was crossed into the 'modern racer' or are all racing pigeons today descendants of those early cross bred racers and the strains we talk of today are variations on a theme.

[stew 75]

after reading above posts does that mean no one can advertise pure kilpatricks  for sale . i dont know the answer just wondreing . PS not picking on kilpatrick strain just using as example as it is an old strain cheers stew  

[friendsloft]

my thought on this  is nothing is pure if you go right back in the make up of the birds  you will find that they all have cross ;s in them,so in my mind not pure but a strain blended together by the fancier,just my view

friendsloft

[stew 75]

hi friend as you say i rember some of the old fanciers  saying its about time i was putting new blood into my loft and that meant a cross cheers stew