on line off line?

[crazy pigeon boy]

hi all

 

i have not been in the sport all that long around 5 years now i started when i was 16 there are 2 people who fly near me and they dont win many prizes in racing they keep telling me it's because we are off line where we race from i dont really understand this can you be off line with racing we fly from nottingham in the nott's and derby border fed the nearist member of our club lives around 3 miles away and he wins a lot of race's and they say it's because he is (on line) where he flys from so how does the online off line thing work?

[Guest coxy]

hi m8 im in staffordshire i think what they may mean is tht loft possition play apart as we have a valley wer the birds come up they seem to come over the m6 motorway and then up the valley so depending on the loft situation and wind they will have better weeks than otehr but as for no winning prizes this is not rue i think they should look at there birds and management before they make comments like tht as eventho the over fanciers may have an advantage  over them they can still easily get into the prizes with decent birds as i have proved in the north staffs fed

[Roland]

In a West in the Wind.... birds will be undoubtedly blow over towards the East Side. Then they have to turn sometime and face a bit of a head win.

Only - out side of leg pullers and idiots - say Wind doesn't matter ... It won't if your on the East side of Club / Fed / Natioanal lol

[Guest coxy]

yes but what i was sayin is in club leel even on he wrong side u can still scrap minor cards what the guy is sayin is bcuz these blokes and winnin they r blamin it on there position instead of birds

[Guest]

Agree Coxy, they're blaming loft position for their constant poor performance.

 

No expert, but I believe 'off-line' fanciers usually train to a break point, the point at which they believe their bird(s) must break from the main drag and head for home, if they are to be amongst the top prizes.

 

 

[Roland]

Bruno  & Coxy, ever needed to make excuses.... The plain simply fact is there every week to see, week in and week out! Just watch the birds circle  your loft crazy pigeon boy and not when they speed up and slow down. Simple look over head and see the wild birds of the same species that fly over head. Those with wind behind, from the side and in front. Now 2 things - sorry three - things that you must remember, the observation  that you will note is aboe the understanding, and observation of the likes of Coxy and Bruno obviously.

Wind blows Lorrie and buses over, and even Tankers ... just this week end, and yet a small ball of feathers and bones won't be affected ... Cobblers, they are only ever trying to protect their own selfisf corner, and thirdly, if two birds  are flying down the street together, and break to the respective lofts, exactly the same distance, with a West in the wind, the bird in the East wins. Lose sight of that and you'll never do any good. Yes we can't harness the wind, only adjust our sails. Lookk at the nationals... Golly the best 500 birds are always in the same location, marvellous that. 5000 in a race and say the top 150 are all in the North East, and 323 of the next. Some flyers. Not a rocket sceince, just common sense.

[Roland]

Breaking points are useless, but handy only in getting the milage under their wings.

It just doesn't happen. they are birds, useing a system we have no idea of what, let aboiut how they home. ut it appears that once they lock on to their line home, they don't see nothing till the last second. Just watch the nip over the hedges, roof tops and the time they change in a split second and alter, remedied themselves to not hit an obstacle. Too many dream instead of observing natural straigh forward facts.

[jimmy white]

off course the wind can decide the result,,,,,,sometimes,,,,,,,,thereare areas that will have a favoutite chance,yes, but the fevourites dont allways win,, a really top class pigeon in top form will come direct and on its own,,,in front,,,,  past results will prove that .

[birdman55678]

hi all

 

i have not been in the sport all that long around 5 years now i started when i was 16 there are 2 people who fly near me and they dont win many prizes in racing they keep telling me it's because we are off line where we race from i dont really understand this can you be off line with racing we fly from nottingham in the nott's and derby border fed the nearist member of our club lives around 3 miles away and he wins a lot of race's and they say it's because he is (on line) where he flys from so how does the online off line thing work?

 

If there is someone winning lots of prizes that is only 3 miles from you then your not off line.  Better training (more miles) should cure your problem.  Don't train your birds with anyone elses, it will just teach them to follow, you want them to lead.  Good luck.   Ed

[martin dunks]

i agree with roland, loft position  is the most important  factor  to sprint racing today  .decent pigeons are available to most fanciers but in our fed lincs south rd ! if u dont live in cleethorpes 90% of the time youve got no chance in the section  .once the birds hit the foot of the lincs wolds they race up the coast breaking over cleethorpes  (breaking point ! my @@se ) ive tried all the so called areas  but  with a south wind with even a touch of west in it  the results are always the same

[Roland]

birdman55678 regards you working harder and geting more motivated etc... then him in the EAST is doing thet same, you have to do it every week, week in and week out and hope one day he's birds are not quite as on song as your's.

Crazy pigeon you will note quickly these same fanciers that say Wind doesn't matter THAT much WLL reply  on Saturday morning when asked how long will it take them start off 'Well in THIS WIND it be a fast one and with West in the wind, of course those (Place) in the East will be 10 - 20 minutes or whatever in front ... Or a stif side wind against means ... And they will certainly tell you later on when you win that 'Well you certainly should have! What with the East i the wind. Fact week in week out. 95% can tell you  98% of the time where the winning location will be... Then they will come on here, or right in Mags etc. that WIND makes no diference to a 'Good Bird'! Cobblers and equaelly good birds as well prepared will beat it every week in a favourable wind ... like yors will beat theirs in a favourable wind. But West is prodominately in most winds. Never seen or heard of the fanciers that move to be in a westerly side on purpose. Seen 100's that move intoi the Vallies and to the EAST side, many before they become well know. Some admit it... others try and flobb it off. Commonsence tells you the truth every day, so don't let the smooth tongues, and well presnted Scenario's thawt sensible and realistic thinking! Look at the skies, and the wind. See when they struggle  and more importantly NOTE how, when circling,  they slow going upwards a bit, then swoosh around with speed, then slow ec. Good luck to you.

[Roland]

Live aside a 3 mile  x 2 mile lake. Next to a chuch... my birds in a west in the wind always Came back! We could go 40 miles and see them.... Birds go by and even get reported 5 miles up the road. So obviosly Land marks are not even seen! Stiffish, distance and hard races I always hold my own...  BUT of course only in my neck of the woods. East side normally dominate, unless of course a stiffisf East in the wind, then I am clobbered by those in the West. fact, sweet and simple.

[Guest]

Some of these posts would lead you to believe that all races are held in South or South West winds. They are not. One of my clubmates remarked last year that for the previous couple of years he felt the winds on race days had been mainly easterlies. Didn't matter what the wind was, same people won.

 

Can't argue with what you say about wind being a deciding factor, Roland .. that is exactly what it is in my opinion a deciding factor, one of many in the race. And you are comparing apples and pears. Birds are creatures of the air, sculpted by Nature over millions of years, cars lorries etc are not..

 

And I agree with the posts on break-point training,  don't believe in it, or line-of-flight training for that matter. The wind direction, speed, temperature, weather etc will determine which particular line-of-flight the birds will take on a given day. The birds know 'the hows' to get home and 'the whys' for striking a particular direction. Us? We can only guess.   IMHO.  

 

 

 

[Roland]

Of course Bruno ... But one has only to look at the great fancier, like Frankie George, paid world record prices for the birds. Had three great dedicated loft managers, whom he gave great bonuses and even a house, that never shone. Masserrella the beat goes on and is countless. So look at the NFC AND MNFC results and simple explan why the best birds and fanciers are up the North East Coast, or Bristol etc. on any given day. Two birds are liberated from say Thurso Both are in the best condition and motivated! One is going to Cromer and the other to Kidderminster. It is a N. West wind.  Both time in. Bet I can't get any money on the cromer bird to time in before the Kidderminster! I bet there is way over 1/2 hour difference, and probably more.

I bet NO ONE will move to Kiddermentser to concentrate on the NRCC -East Coast Club. Now any one want a really challenge to prove the merit, the chances are there. Kidderminster would struggle with a North wind with no west in it!

[Ronnie]

well where i live they used to say that you could never win a club race because of position and the wind factor.well a loft about 100yards from me is winning regular club and fed .(south west cheshire fed) also they are regular club average winners from another club and fed winners(not sure on what fed that is).I asked them how they did it and the reply was got better birds and trained on a breaking point.Last year they took first 5 fed cards with young birds in one race and they could have clocked the first twelve i know that as fact as i was sat in their back garden watching them  when a batch dropped and they couldnt clock them quick enough .Oh yeah they also won the middlewich two bird open and took the two bird average for that race with a mother and daughter.My point being that while position does play a small factor that can still be overcome with good birds motivation and break point training may actually help.

[pigeonpete]

well where i live they used to say that you could never win a club race because of position and the wind factor.well a loft about 100yards from me is winning regular club and fed .(south west cheshire fed) also they are regular club average winners from another club and fed winners(not sure on what fed that is).I asked them how they did it and the reply was got better birds and trained on a breaking point.Last year they took first 5 fed cards with young birds in one race and they could have clocked the first twelve i know that as fact as i was sat in their back garden watching them  when a batch dropped and they couldnt clock them quick enough .Oh yeah they also won the middlewich two bird open and took the two bird average for that race with a mother and daughter.My point being that while position does play a small factor that can still be overcome with good birds motivation and break point training may actually help.

 

who was that ronnie? albert austin?

[Guest]

Roland, I think it is a bit of a fallacy to think that pigeon fanciers are able to move home to anywhere in the country to gain a fanciful positional advantage. Moving home is reckoned to be one of the most stressful occasions there is and if we do move home, its usually work-related or family-related.. nowt to do with pigeons.

 

I also think there are lots of fallacies in our understanding of winds. They don't for example blow in straight lines and they don't blow in either the same direction or at the same strength everywhere in GB. Just look at any TV weather map and note the 'different' winds over GB. They blow in a big circle round a high or low pressure air mass. In theory any bird starting at Thurso and travelling with the wind would arrive back at Thurso, irrespective of wind direction. Thurso is on the North East tip of Scotland and a north wind would take the bird into the North Sea. A north west wind might take it halfway across the north sea.

 

And lastly, our understanding of the lie of the British Isles is maybe a bit off. We might rub our hands in glee when we hear the birds are off in a south wind, blowing the birds straight home. Not so. Because the mainland lies skewed SE to NW, a bird liberated at Leicester in a south wind would end up ... over the North sea.

[martin dunks]

fallacy! why do all the so called top fanciers move to the east coast of lincs to  improve their chances of getting the big win in the nrcc ,moving from inland areas to the little pocket of the coast  but with thier numbers dwindleing do they bother to open up the radius to the mouth of the humber ?no chance they are scared of the competition from the grimsby /cleethorpes area fanciers ; as for getting better birds when you have 15 drop together to all the spoils in the biggest open race in our area and 15 again to take most of the places in the section 2000 birds  im happy with what ive got

[Guest slugmonkey]

Wind definatly plays a role but I live off line and still win more than my share of diplomas the only breaking point to worry about is the one at the truck by that I mean that if your bird is in front he is in front but if he is following it dosent matter what or where the wind is blowing here we have guys sending mobs of birds and guys that live together train together trying to pull the flock on sprints its pretty hard to overcome but if the birds are right I still get top positions when you get out to 300 miles or so the wind dosent play as much of a role and at 450+ it all about the birds this is what I talk about when I tell you to look at a flyers position when buying birds if you have 5 guys that live in a 1km area and they are always in the top look for the guy that lives 3 km away and is still in the prizes all the time this is the guy with the birds our sport isn't fair most of the time but it sure feels good when you win out of turn !!!

[Roland]

True Martin, and why won't the NRCC release unless absolutely imperative!? They say that the birds would crash into mountains... Yeah and that there would be losses etc. A sad Joke, as the scots obviously only live in lowlands and no high hills etc. But by the same reckoning it is fine for them to be swept ou to sea and the continent! Further the birds trave 12 - 15 miles out at sea, or a minium of 3 miles out of land, etc. when near esturaries etc. They apparently also seldom go across waters like the Wash, but go in and around ... still as the was is 22 miles that is freasible. New a club where thos in the East side never won ... because there is one lol. Yes Bruno winds might be variable, but you know as well as I do that that is just planting a Red Herring, for facts speak out louder than word, let alone scenario's.

[Roland]

Bruno nothing about a Fallacy in Fanciers moving location, many do... But the point I am making and you well know it is, that those able to move a buisness or take early retire or move becuase of work only move to a more favourable position. That includes Stan Biss, Tasker, Geoff Clare etc. etc. etc.

Or the convieniently ar the FIRST stop before the main  bend in a Valley. No matter what after that, if their bird is fi enough to be up with the leaders he has won ... others still have to twist and turn abit hence losing vital seconds each time. Likewise Mid Day liberations, simple to enable a good MIDDLE distance bird to beat genuine Distance birds... And then have the cheek to advertise as Distance stock!

[martin dunks]

village where i live is abuot 6 miles off the coast from cleethorpes  (the golden mile) majority of the time the birds will come back off the coast into the village  with this problem we decided to race our birds north  first young bird race bloke at the back of me  took the first six (4 of wich i bred him )  i didnt send that week as i was working  but  i saw the birds coming on line whilst travelling to work  after this result  several members decided not to support the  young bird programme resulting in the cancellation of the yb races the folling week these birds were raced south   i sat and watched them coming back of the coast    ;   on the north they hold atrue line but race them south in this area  and there beach huggers  is it the contours of the land ? the wind ? the drag ? not enough nose enders for my likeing

[Guest Vic]

Good topic!

                I have always maintained that a mile east, is worth at least a minute racing into Liverpool. I believe, (after 52 years of racing)  that the breaking point is in the vicinity of Fiddlers Ferry power station, towards Warrington. Seeing that I am mobile again, I will be training there this year, hoping to pull a bit of time back.

                                                                    A decade or so ago,  when the Amal. was sending over 7,000 birds weekly, I led a campaign to split the Amal into

Eastern and Westerly sections, which eventually happenned, for a few years albeit.    

Quite often, the last pigeon in the easterly section, would record a higher velocity

than the leading bird in the westerly section. As time has gone by, most of the westerly Liverpool clubs have joined the North Liverpool Fed. Presently, the Amal now  consists of mainly the old Eastern boundary clubs, with only one or two of the ex-Westerly clubs taking part. Vic.

[jimmy white]

in the past  have won the ob average in club flying furthest west [runner up to fed gold cup twice there] moved house won ob ave flying furthest east , won ob ave flying one of the furthest south, and won the ob ave flying one of the furthest n,e, all points of the compass in a club at that time with 35 to 38 members sending one week 710 birds ,,,,from the east to the west of the club would be about 3  miles, roughly the same as the distance from the furthest north to the furthest south, so it can be done ,,,,,on many occasions :)    the fanciers i raced against know this ,and dam good fanciers too

[Guest Vic]

Following my last post, I came accross a few lines I wrote at the time of the big divide, a decade or so ago. Some thought it amusing, whilst others weren' t very

happy bunnies.

 

 

                              Composes upon Runcorn Bridge.

 

 

Have you ever seen a sight that's so unfair,

This farcial "Eastern Approach" beyond compare.

Yet! for years in the West, we've been branded second best,

While the Lords of Knowsley plunder silverware.

 

I've studied many things, like the "Valley" of the Kings,

And the uncatchable road runners in the East.

So if it's Amal wins that your wantin', you'd better move to Cronton,

Where some are guaranteed, to say the least!

 

I know I'll cause a frown, on the sunrise side of town,

Where Amal cards are more common than their clubs.

Some "jokers" become aces, in the inland races,

Yes! the Knowsley earls should gladly pay our subs.

 

To prove who is the best, we'll have a fiver test,

Six races your selection has to fly.

The best average out of these, will make someone "big cheese"

A cut above the rest you can't deny.

 

To give everyone a chance, there'll be only three from France,

Sartilly (2), Rennes (2) and the last one,

With inlands 2nd, 4th and 6th race, for many to save face,

Then the Niort race will have to be a fast one.

 

A proposals going through, to make Amal positions true,

For the Knowsley lofts to form an Eastern section.

Fifty cards shared East and West, will make a fair contest,

Yet! I've heard it said, THERE MIGHT BE AN OBJECTION!

 

                                                                               Vic.