settle freindly debate/?

[jimmy white]

when a pigeon , sitting on a three day old yb , going to a 5,,600 mile race find this pigeon milk [it manufactures at this time] find it a help or a hindrance,i.e using it as fuel for the journey

[Silverdale Lofts]

I would never go back to natural racing but i would have sent a bird on a 7 day old young bird or older

[Tony C]

I would say a hindrance. It as we know is full of goodness (protein) but it has to be manufactured from its own body so I would say at best its only putting back what it has already taken out of itself.

[Ronnie]

i would say a help ,yes it has been manufactured by its own body but its allready made so the pigeon could call on these resources if neded but saying that if your going to send a bird that far you must have it prepared and in good form so it could just be excess baggage.

[swilcox]

Dont ever underestmate the bond a cock/hen has with its young, i know many good cocks that have flown there heart out to a big young un, 1st NFC Pau, Somerset Lad, 1st Nat St Vincent Blauwe Bertus and many many more. The secret is to observe!!!!

 

I have a hen who won 1st Etampes 4815b, she is a normal pigeon but when you see her on a small young un she becomes a different bird!!!! A trait i hope she passes on.

 

Stuart

[T_T]

Hi Jimmy,

              For me, I would suggest it being a hindrance particularly at that distance.  Sending on a Fri night to a sprint race coming home on the Saturday morning, may be something different but I wouldn't fancy the idea of a pigeon of mine being basketed Weds or Thurs night for a 5/600 miler carrying milk with the chance of it performing to any great result.  I'm sure there will always be some exceptions but my comment is my own personal belief.

[Tony C]

I think its worth mentioning that the chemistry/hormones of the pigeon may change whilst producing pigeon milk. Whilst the milk may be a great fuel source, the pigeons condition could suffer from these changes.

[Guest]

Had a similar conversation while back with clubmate who likes to specialise in our Combine race from France: actual subject was sitting well overdue eggs and whether manufacture and non use of pigeon milk would put birds off form..

 

He said he only had to smell the crop (smelled sour) to come to judgement that it probably wasn't good for the bird.

 

I honestly don't know (1) I don't like the idea of the bird in basket for a few days like this, but it also doesn't make sense to me that something as natural as this could harm the bird in any way (2) how does it work ? is milk produced only on demand, or is it a produced automatically irrespective of whether there's a young un to feed or not?

[Guest speckled]

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D "bitty" ;D ;D ;D soz i could not resist pmsl  ;D ;D ;D i forgot what i was going to say now lol ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

[jimmy white]

think specks been on the soz ;D ;D ;D [never mind shell be ok when she takes her tablet ;D ;D yip ill cope it for that ;D ;D ;D]

that was one of the things we discussed bruno,, does the bird automaticly pruduce milk even allthough the eggs are not going to hatch, my veiw on that [there was all differant veiws ] was that the bird goes through a cycle [not a bike speck ;D] but every thing has to take place in the cycle i,e if the eggs are dummies or not going to hatch , i dont think nature would give that pigeon milk, i think its the forming of the egg that brings on the milk,ie movement at 10 days inside the egg up to chipping,, only my thoughts but as most of the previos posts suggest , this was excactly how the debate was going in my house,, my own thoughts are that there are certain pigeons that race better to certain conditions, a cock or hen are usually keen on a three day old yb, but as far as producing milk , i think this would cease until it was stimulated on the yb again, but would have a certain amount ready in the tank , sort of thing , where this would be used up as feeding to the actual pigeon itself, or be passed through the bird ,, but not excactly sure , but have won at the distance in this condition , but would prefer to send them dry ,,,,swillcox,s idea there ive found great the hen sitting a few days and a big yb in the box feeding for itself really , but an old cock seems to love that big young un,,,,,,,so still really none the wiser , but very interesting topic :)

[Guest speckled]

;D ;D ;D well jimmy ive had me tablets so ishould be tame now ;D ;D ;D Dont matter if thay are dummies or full eggs, the birds will prodouce the milk, :X :X :X its called a cycle. but it like anything left to long it will go soar, .ponder on that lol ;D ;D ;D ;D speck

[jimmy white]

well im pondering ;D ;D ;D ill let you know what ive pondered ;D ;D when ive pondered ;D ;D ;D ;D [just like that big word ;D ;D ;D]

[Guest speckled]

;D ;D lol would of thought ya needed weaning buy now lol ;D ;D ;D ;D solids  pmsl ;D ;D ;D ;D Speck owch i will pay fot this

[Ronnie]

so if i take 10 day old eggs and swap them with a pair that have two day old egg's ,will the young still get milk of the foster parents? also not sure myself but ive heard the incubation takes 21 days before hatching but heard people say theve had them hatch on 18 days will these babys still get the milk?If they do then it seems highly likely that the egg's hatching is part of the cycle and likely that it can be turned on an off as needed .Could be natures way of dealing with the parents getting blown about when searching for food and not making it back to the nest in time(in the wild) .still all guesswork on my behalf

[Wiley]

pigeon eggs should hatch in 18 days after the 2nd egg is laid as this is when the incubation starts.If you swap 10 day old eggs with 2 day old eggs the youngsters are likely to die! The Basic rule for swapping is a day imbetween so eggs 10 days can be swapped with 9 days ect.

[Guest]

;D ;D ;D well jimmy ive had me tablets so ishould be tame now ;D ;D ;D Dont matter if thay are dummies or full eggs, the birds will prodouce the milk, :X :X :X its called a cycle. but it like anything left to long it will go soar, .ponder on that lol ;D ;D ;D ;D speck

 

Have to agree Specks.

 

The bit I posted about was sitting overdue eggs, on pot eggs. The reason I had asked about it down at the clubhouse was that I'd found what I took to be regurgitated congealed pigeon milk on the loft floor. Looked like 3 tiny lumps of soft white cheese, smelled it - stank like sour milk.

 

So reckon that bird brought it up rather than as I'd have thought too, let it go down for  digestion. But again, wouldn't Natural thing be for it to be regurgitated?

 

thats two great new words ... pondered and regurgitated  .. and its only January

[Guest slugmonkey]

3 day eggs and 17 day eggs are my bread and butter I have won many races on these one of my favorite tricks is to put a freshly hatched baby under a pair of birds sitting 17 day eggs do this the morning of race day then send both parents and foster the eggs else where and see if you don't get results

I guess this would put me in the don't think it matters camp!

[pigeonscout]

Or you can take the eggs away as soon as 2nd egg is layed and keep in cool place for up to 7 days then put under birds that have just had 2nd egg.

[jimmy white]

WHAT I WAS TRYING TO SAY WAS THAT WE KNOW THERES A CYCLE, BUT IS THIS CYCLE BROKEN IF THE BIRD SITS ON DUMMY EGGS THEN COMES OFF AFTER 21 DAYS TREADS RIGHT AWAY AND BREEDS AGAIN ,[DOES THIS BIRD CARRY PIGEON MILK]I THINK THE CYCLE HAS BEEN BROKEN [sOUNDS LIKE THE OLD COUNTRY WESTERN SONG ,,,,WILL THE CIRCLE BE UNBROKEN,,,NEARLY BURST IN TO SONG THERE ;D ;D ;D] AS THE MOVEMENT IN THE EGG HAS NOT COMPLETED THE CYCLE IE NO MOVEMENT,,    BUT WHEN THE EGG IS FERTILE AND FORMING THE ADULT BIRDS KNOW THIS AND ARE STIMULATED BY THIS AND PRODUCE CROP MILK ,, I REALLY DONT KNOW ,,SENT AN E MAIL TO FIND OUT WELL SEE IF I GET AN ANSWER   :)

BIG WORDS  ;D ;D WEVE HAD REGURGITATED. PONDERED, NOW LIPOGRAM  ;D ;D IE  THE PAPERS,, BRUNO ;) ;D  ,thatll get speck going ;D ;D ;D, didnt realise this was capitals,,sorry

[Guest]

Kinda worried about that lipogram word Jimmy    

 

Shades of Mick Jagger?  ;D

 

Wonder what Specks would make of one like that!

[birdman55678]

I do not believe there is a cycle, I have put 10 day old eggs under a hen that just laid the second egg and when the 10 day old eggs hatch both cock and hen have pigeon milk.  I would not send a bird producing milk to any long race.  My 2cents worth anyway.  Ed

[jimmy white]

they usualy start producing milk after sitting 10 days ,, but i think that proves my point that the obs produce milk by the movement inside the egg, this pair might have just made it,, but try putting two chipping eggs under a bird thats just laid ,, they wont survive , no time to manufactor or produce pigeon milk