Gun Crime

[Guest Vic]

I lost two more of my racers over the weeknd, probably to guns. What's up with

the kids these days? It's getting like Dodge City around here! I believe they spend hours on the net looking at different types of guns. What is the penalty now, for shooting a racing pigeon? I haven't heard of any  court cases being brought up for years regarding shooting racing pigeons.  > Vic.

 

[Guest jason]

All I know Vic is that you receive a £50 reward IF you can get a conviction.

By the way, birds arrived perfect this morning, they look very well too.

 

Jason

[THE FIFER]

I lost two more of my racers over the weeknd, probably to guns. What's up with

the kids these days? It's getting like Dodge City around here! I believe they spend hours on the net looking at different types of guns. What is the penalty now, for shooting a racing pigeon? I haven't heard of any  court cases being brought up for years regarding shooting racing pigeons.  > Vic.

 

dont know about shooting pigeons but they are very stricked about using guns,

[Guest shadow]

the last I heard was £1,000 fine if caught and convicted of shooting racing pigeons problem is catching them in the act

[Roland]

Went over the fields a few years back - 20 by golly, and see two idiots shooting anything that moved. Said - with a 4 10, that the sparrows etc. were for their Ferrets!

I told them there'd be nothing left for the ferrets! But as I had lost a couple to guns, and a big race when a certain bird came back shot through the wing and part chest, I told them a little story. That if they had ever shot a pigeon a saw me coming, they'd better shoot me as they would be heading  - at best - to hospital. That after I'd extracted all and any loot by any means possible, that hospital would be their second home, as the habbit would be hard to break. I was in a mood and my face told them that it was so. They never ever shot i that, or near my vincinity again lol. But I knew in me heart of heartd (I have 5 actually lol) that tey had been shooting pigeons, and I felt moine. So alls well that ends well lol.

[madmaxlofts]

i think theres a new law now

any 1 found guilty ov possesing a fire arm minnimum 5 yr sentence

air rifles go by the poundage they shoot at

so dont know what the law is on them

[Guest]

Was surprised to find VFTR 11th July 2003 appears to be the most up to date legal advice we have on shooting racing pigeons. Not much comfort from it either:

 

The Shooting of Racing Pigeons

 

I had my ear bent the other day by a West Midlands fancier visiting the Reddings regarding the recent furore of the shooting of a racing pigeon incident. He felt that the RPRA should have done something about it. Well I stand by my comments in the last VFTR and I believe that if you read that in relation to the legal advice below that was received in 1985 from the RPRA solicitors there would have been little chance of a conviction. Although the police were duly informed and investigated the incident, no charges were proffered. The advice reads as follows:

“The relevant statutory provisions under which the shooting of racing pigeons may be a criminal offence continues to be Section 1 of the Theft Act 1969 and Section 1 of the Criminal Damage Act 1971.

 

It is pretty clear that the difficulties that members are encountering in persuading the Police to commence prosecution and thereafter, in winning the resultant cases, arise not from any difficulty in establishing that racing pigeons are personal property (and therefore fall within the sphere of the Theft Act), but from the difficulties of proving intent to the relevant degree on the part of the perpetrator of the act. It is not difficult to see how the Police would wish to prosecute only where they felt the facts would permit no other interpretation than that the perpetrator of the act actually intended to kill racing pigeons, knowing they were racing pigeons. Facts which are as clear as that are pretty rare.

 

In view of the above, it is perhaps useful to point out that a court is far more likely to be persuaded that a shooter had the necessary degree of intention or recklessness where the shooting of the racing pigeon was the second or subsequent occasion on which he was known to have behaved in such a manner. It is therefore important that members should report to the Police every incident of shooting of racing pigeons where the shooter can be identified and is very important to ensure that the shooter has, at the very least, been informed that he has shot a racing pigeon, that shooting racing pigeons is a criminal offence, and that he has been informed of the ways in which racing pigeons may be identified from wood pigeons. If a shooter continues to shoot racing pigeons after he has been so informed and a complaint about him has been notified to the police, it will be much easier for them to be able to prove to the court that the shooter had the necessary degree of intention or recklessness.

 

Regarding pigeons that are ‘fielding’ – a farmer does not have an absolute right to shoot such pigeons, it is a question of judicial judgement as to whether he has acted reasonably to protect his crops and whether the racing pigeons were causing a significant degree of damage etc. etc. Prosecutions falling under this heading will be more difficult, but again, members should report such cases to the Police so that the shooter’s name can be put on record and so that he can be warned that racing pigeons are private property and as such, shooters could be subject to prosecution under the Criminal Damages Act 1971”.

 

 

 

[Guest]

The control of Firearms does seem to be tightened up tho, the Law as it applies to young people can be seen here on the Sussex Police Website:-

 

http://www.sussex.police.uk/online_forms/firearms_law_juveniles.asp

[Guest Vic]

Doesn't sound vey encouraging, does it Bruno? That's why there are no oourt cases as in the past, I suppose.

[Guest]

I do not believe that to be the up to date position, Vic. There was an important piece of legislation enacted just year in UK, Animal Health & Welfare Act, part of which covers 'kept' animals.

 

I also searched the Home Office 'guidance on firearms to Police 2002' is a 212-page PDF Document; CH14 covers Animals & Birds, and guess what ... advice covers wild animals and birds only. But it did shatter the RPRA existing advice because there is something called 'double jeopardy' available from this act. Suspects in shooting racing pigeon cases cannot claim that they thought they were firing at a wild bird ... that's illegal too ..  

 

I've posted eleswhere, just owning an air rifle spells trouble for the owner, as up here, Joe-public are dead against them and want an outright ban. Did pick this 2006 report up from SSPCA:

 

http://www.scottishspca.org/Uploads/Campaigns/Airgun%20Agony%20Report.pdf

 

 

I'm also going to email SSPCA and ask their views on what legislation best protects Racing Pigeons, and I'd also like to change the Thread heading to 'Gun Crime' as that's a better description of what the thread is about, and may help us to pick up additional hits.

[Guest REDFOXKRAUTHS]

there was a man who used to work the light house 26 miles out of looe a long time ago he used shoot the channle birds coming back over some people caught him he had a £5500 fine and he lost his job! > ??) :X

[Guest Vic]

This morning, I went around to where I think the shooting is coming from,

and warned them of the consequences of any more losses.One more shooting and I will have the police on the job, even if its only for fire arms possession. So let's hope that will be the end of it, because to lose your racers just before the off, is sickening indeed. >

[Guest REDFOXKRAUTHS]

i am sorry for you

[Guest]

ive had my birds shot over the last few years.i know who is doing it too, but cant catch him at it.the police need to have witnesses to proceed with any conviction..the legal limit for power in an air rifle is 12 foot in pounds(in the uk).this can be excelled by fitting any powerful spring and even more then doubled in power if fitted with a spring intended for gamekeepers air rifles as such.....some 34-36ft in pounds..paul

 

[Flyer]

i was a keen hunter and have shoot lots of pigeons including the occasional racing pigeons, which is quite legal to do so aslong as its gone feral. thats is the tricky point. how do you tell if a racing pigeon has become feral. if the birds is sitting on your roof and someone shoots it then theres no reason why they should not be shot them selfs. (vic want on loan of a gun   )

[pigeonscout]

Tell the owner of the land they are shooting on that you will be sending him the bill for any valuable birds you lost because the people he has given permission to shoot over his land, shot them. He is the one that has given these people permission to shoot on his land and can be held reasonable for any damage they do while shooting on his land. It is a lot easer to stop the shooting than it is to prove someone shot your bird.

[pigeonscout]

i was a keen hunter and have shoot lots of pigeons including the occasional racing pigeons, which is quite legal to do so aslong as its gone feral. thats is the tricky point. how do you tell if a racing pigeon has become feral. if the birds is sitting on your roof and someone shoots it then theres no reason why they should not be shot them selfs. (vic want on loan of a gun   )

 

It is not legal to shoot a racing pigeon there is a ring on its leg so you can report it shooting a racing pigeon is no more legal than shooting a stray dog.

If there is a ring on its leg them then it has a legal owner and you have no right to shoot it lost or not lost.

[Guest Vic]

One has to be careful these days, with some of the low life, that's crawling around. We are so vunerable to repercusions in pigeon racing, which recent postings have no doubt shown.

[Guest]

it is against the law to aim skywards any firearm and shoot.u must always have a firm background and aim towards the ground..this rule covers all build up of housing/factory buildings.unless on private land and given the owners permission .it is against the law to unload(fire) an air rifle at a pigeon/or any other  bird in a built up area....paul

[Flyer]

pigeonscout and invincible_spirit its is perfectly LEGAL to shoot a racing pigeon that has gone FERAL and how would you see a ring on a pigeon flying in the SKY

invincible_spirit [it is against the law to aim skywards any firearm and shoot](with a air rifle not a shotgun) with a second or two before you pull the trigger. as for shooting i built up areas. thats how i got into pigeon racing. i controled the local pigeon problem in my local church. i would report the birds i could catch with rings and 90% of the time i was asked to dispose of them but some of them where just too nice to get rid of and started keeping them. vic asked why there have not court cases being brought up for years regarding shooting racing pigeons. in my opinon this is why they don't get to court because a racing pigeon and one thats gone feral look exactly the same.

[pigeonscout]

pigeonscout and invincible_spirit its is perfectly LEGAL to shoot a racing pigeon that has gone FERAL and how would you see a ring on a pigeon flying in the SKY

invincible_spirit [it is against the law to aim skywards any firearm and shoot](with a air rifle not a shotgun) with a second or two before you pull the trigger. as for shooting i built up areas. thats how i got into pigeon racing. i controled the local pigeon problem in my local church. i would report the birds i could catch with rings and 90% of the time i was asked to dispose of them but some of them where just too nice to get rid of and started keeping them. vic asked why there have not court cases being brought up for years regarding shooting racing pigeons. in my opinon this is why they don't get to court because a racing pigeon and one thats gone feral look exactly the same.

You are so wrong, It is not legal to shoot a bird that has a ring on its leg.

Here is the uk law on shooting of pigeons before you read I must point out that any racing pigeon with a ring on its leg cannot be classed as a feral pigeon as it has a legal owner.

PIGEON SHOOTING AND THE LAW

Woodpigeon shooting is controlled by the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 in Britain and the Wildlife (Northern Ireland) Order 1985 in Northern Ireland. Woodpigeons may be killed or taken by authorised persons at all times. It is strictly prohibited to use any sound recording or live bird as a decoy.  Currently woodpigeon shooting continues under an open general licence issued by the Department of the Environment, Transport and the Regions for England and Wales, the Scottish Office Agriculture, Environment and Fisheries Department for Scotland and the Environment and Heritage Service for N. Ireland. No individual application is required for any licence.

In Britain the shooting of Collared Doves (Streptopelia decaocto) and the feral pigeon (Columba livia) is also permitted all year round but the Stock Dove (Columba oenas), Rock Dove (Columba livia) and Turtle Dove (Streptopelia turtur) are all protected species and may not be shot at any time. In N. Ireland the Collared Dove is protected and no pigeons can be shot either at night or on Sundays. The legality of shooting pigeons in Scotland on Sundays remains unclear.

The Stock Dove is often mistakenly called the 'Blue Rock' and  great care must be taken  as these birds often fly with woodpigeons and come readily to decoys.

The feral pigeon is a direct descendent of the Rock Dove (which is usually only found on western coasts), and will be mainly seen close to urban areas.

 

Note: wild-living, former racing and homing pigeons often fly with feral pigeons but these birds are strictly protected. Whilst they normally have leg rings to show their ownership, identification in the field can be difficult so, if in doubt, do not shoot.

So if you where shooting birds with rings on their leg you were breaking the law and should not own a gun.

 

 

[pigeonscout]

The police may not want to press charges because it is hard to prove criminal intent. That does not stop the owner of the pigeon suing the shooter or farmer for financial loss. If someone drove into the back of your car it does not matter if it was done by accident they still have to pay the up. You do not have to commit a crime to be liable for damages.

[Roland]

Remember well a case in the BHW well a fellow shot some racers. He was good enough to keep the rings. The judge awarded damages against him and in answer to 'How was I to know / see, the judge replied 'If you can't tell the difference, then you shouldn't being shooting them'!

[Guest Vic]

Seems to me that we all on a LOSER! :(Vic.

[Guest]

Remember well a case in the BHW well a fellow shot some racers. He was good enough to keep the rings. The judge awarded damages against him and in answer to 'How was I to know / see, the judge replied 'If you can't tell the difference, then you shouldn't being shooting them'!

 

Exactlly my point Roland: this is the legal catch-all called double jeopardy, which simply means if you didn't commit crime A then your action still breaks the Law because that action is crime B.