Non Racing Fanciers Selling Pigeons

[thunderboult]

Rather than rumble on and hijacking another thread i thought it would be interesting to ask this question.

 

Do you think its better to buy off a pigeon fancier who races and produces results or off a stud who does not race and collects well bred birds of certain strains and trends.

 

I have flown pigeon for nearly 30 years since i was 6. for my first few years my dad and i would buy pigeons that were easily available, from studs and the like. Most were rubbish until i purchased a pair from Haywood Lofts (mr & mrs Kozack) i think. I call him and told him of the combine winner i had bred and he said well that does suprise me the father of the hen won this for me and the brother etc etc. I then changed tack and started buying from proven fanciers with real results and i must admit ive had stronger stock ever since.

 

When myself and Raymond started to look at having a stud (and i hate the word stud) we both agreed that racing must be our priority and even though we both have moved house we have got the birds on the road and it really has tought us alot about our birds and we had a few suprises at just what turned out to be the best breeders.

 

I now believe it imparative that a seller tries and tests his own lines every year before offering them to others.

 

Views welcome

 

hi stuart in an ideal world that would be best but some just want to make a buck off other's backs. that name you mentioned kozaczek haywood lofts are they still about? why i ask is my friend had a hen from them bred him a hen to score 117th+46th nat pau. and 16th nat dax. she's the mother to 3 of my stock birds.

 

[swilcox]

They were good pigeons from Kozak, i had a dtr of his Poiters winner and she bred Champion 212 when paired to a cock from the great Bobby Adair of Cumbria.

 

Albear to be honest most 7/8 and 9 year old stock pigeons that had to do nothing in there life would look pretty nice.

[Wiley]

;)interesting to see you chose Lefebre Dhaneans ALLBEAR . an old clubmate of mine went on a coach trip to Louellas 5 or so years ago and had his£100 in pocket , bought 6 youngsters laffy daffy ,because thats what the guy in front of him chose ?? the other fancier turned one down ,it was offered to my old clubmate . he turned down ,on the grounds not good enough for the other guy ,i dont want it . Louellas gave it to him , 7 for the price of six ? he raced them . 6 went down and one stayed and won as yb ,yearling ,2 yr old etc etc , now in his stock loft breeding winners year after year . and yes it was the freebie /                   andy

 

uve got quality lefebre dhanen blood in ur loft that was free my friend

 

 

[Guest]

 

hi stuart in an ideal world that would be best but some just want to make a buck off other's backs. that name you mentioned kozaczek haywood lofts are they still about? why i ask is my friend had a hen from them bred him a hen to score 117th+46th nat pau. and 16th nat dax. she's the mother to 3 of my stock birds.

 

Hi Andy Kozaczek, started selling again in 2002. Howard Rubbery of Merthyr bought some from him back in the late 70s that did exceptionally well for him. Andy had the old Schallie Banges and I think Mr Page who won several cars flew these birds. The reason I know he started back around 2000/02 was because at the time I had just moved to Barnsley, which wasn't to far from askern where he lived. I visited him and  by heck he had some birds and several different strains and there were some gems there. However the conditions were not very good.

It turned out he had a marraige breakup and brought up his kids on his own and this from what I was told and understood had a devasting effect on him.

However I don't think the story turned out to well, he did have a stand at Blackpool the following year that i visited and the birds didn't look in great nick and I remember I think and if anyone knows different please correct me, a small advert in the BHW from Peter Bryant asking anyone hwo had bought Andy'd birds at Blackpool to get in touch. I left Barnsley in Dec 2004 and I have no idea what the current position is but I liked the guy very much as a person and felt for him.

[peterpau]

We all want to get as close to the top birds as we can but money dictate's. I think you can get good birds from anywhere. The man at the bottom of the sheet every week will still aquire the best he can, and some of these in better hands can and will do well.

As for foreign pedigree's I think it's often a case of what's not on it that counts. I saw a beauty at Telford and a very unconvincing pedigree, but then I was not looking to buy birds, if I were a bloke called Raymond Molevend has what I would be looking for.

[Guest Paulo]

Rather than rumble on and hijacking another thread i thought it would be interesting to ask this question.

 

Do you think its better to buy off a pigeon fancier who races and produces results or off a stud who does not race and collects well bred birds of certain strains and trends.

 

I have flown pigeon for nearly 30 years since i was 6. for my first few years my dad and i would buy pigeons that were easily available, from studs and the like. Most were rubbish until i purchased a pair from Haywood Lofts (mr & mrs Kozack) i think. I call him and told him of the combine winner i had bred and he said well that does suprise me the father of the hen won this for me and the brother etc etc. I then changed tack and started buying from proven fanciers with real results and i must admit ive had stronger stock ever since.

 

When myself and Raymond started to look at having a stud (and i hate the word stud) we both agreed that racing must be our priority and even though we both have moved house we have got the birds on the road and it really has tought us alot about our birds and we had a few suprises at just what turned out to be the best breeders.

 

I now believe it imparative that a seller tries and tests his own lines every year before offering them to others.

 

Views welcome

 

I buy my birds from men who race and win and more importantly men who I know bred birds for other flyers that win. People like that don't need to advertise they have no problems selling but you have to do your homework. Often you also need to know someone who knwos them to get an introduction as well!

 

[Guest]

Albear to be honest most 7/8 and 9 year old stock pigeons that had to do nothing in there life would look pretty nice.

 

Hi Stu, don't quite agree with that but maybe that's cause I want to put a more favourable slant on it. I don't believe any breeder at Louellas gets an easy life, bit like a battery farm I suspect. After all that's their only purpose, so they will breed round after round after round no let up. My perspectve is no they won't have had it easy; I also think many breeders will not have survived that long at Louella, the constant strain of breeding will soon break them down. Those that survive tend to have the constitution you need. So that's a good start, however when I went through them and I went through nearly every bird in the pens (except the vandenabelles) there were about 12 in my opinion worth breeding from. As you know Stu I will have used the eye for this, there were also birds, only a few mind, that should not have been for sale because they were not well again judging by the eye. (I left a red van hee hen there wish I hadn't!! simply because I had just reduced stock and here I am bringing in more!!).

I always say the proof of the pudding is in the eating, Henry and I bought at two louella redundant stock sales.

We went to Louella in nov 2005 and bought 4, the hen that bred a fed winner, an ebony aarden and a jan aarden hen paired together that bred a yearling hen to score 2nd club 10th fed at 225 miles as a yearling,  (widowhood hen last year), and a van reet hen that I ddn't breed out of but Henry has kept because he likes her. In dec 2006 we went to Maerdy and bought two hens a 11yo Busschaert and a 10 yo Janssen. The Busschaert laid soft eggs  and was disposed of, the Janssen bred a 10th open BBC. 2007 we didn't go to any sale. However we did go in the November to Aberdare and bought a 6 yo Dutch cock from yourself Stuart (£40?) and this year when paired to what I call my no 1 hen I brought with me from Barnsley bred a bird to win 1st Section NFC 300 mile winning by 96 yds / minute. That's all the old stock  bought in until of course a few weeks back. So you see  you can get some damn good birds from establishments that don't race.

And my reason simple I do not have the money to afford to pay for the top birds, be assured I would if I could with the proviso that I can go pick my own.

[Guest]

;)interesting to see you chose Lefebre Dhaneans ALLBEAR . an old clubmate of mine went on a coach trip to Louellas 5 or so years ago and had his£100 in pocket , bought 6 youngsters laffy daffy ,because thats what the guy in front of him chose ?? the other fancier turned one down ,it was offered to my old clubmate . he turned down ,on the grounds not good enough for the other guy ,i dont want it . Louellas gave it to him , 7 for the price of six ? he raced them . 6 went down and one stayed and won as yb ,yearling ,2 yr old etc etc , now in his stock loft breeding winners year after year . and yes it was the freebie /                   andy

 

The lefebres came to South Wales about 1974 , Louella brought them down to Cascade doing one of his away day sales that they used to do then. Those birds did fantastic winning in to the South Wales valleys from 60 to 600 mile. The fanciers that were fantastic with them were Lee & Cooper of the Rhymney Valley, who though were only in my next valley I had never had the privelge of meeting. The thing that took my eye with the two pair I picked up was that a) in my opinion they were all breeders and most importantly they will breed to win all the way through. If they turn out to be sound and their eyes suggest they still are I expect to get their children scoring from Tarbes but we will see, as I say let's revisit in a couple of years time (Though if they don't breed this coming season I'll let you know!

[Guest]

 

I buy my birds from men who race and win and more importantly men who I know bred birds for other flyers that win. People like that don't need to advertise they have no problems selling but you have to do your homework. Often you also need to know someone who knwos them to get an introduction as well!

 

Agreed you will rarely if ever have seen Alun Maull advertise! Perversly I have never bought a pigeon from Alun but that's simply because I only want the best and I can't afford his best (and he's not dear looking at the prices birds are making!)!!

[Guest cloudview]

a lot of birds are bought , without first doing some homework on the vendors situation and circumstances for example the vendor does,nt work , money no object , trains his birds every day while weathers good while your at work

live,s on the golden mile , theres one in every fed

send s one third of the race entrants    etc ect ect  im sure you get the gist  of it all

so really getting birds from this fancier would be a pointless exercise,unless you could do the same , at the end of the day if your a good fancier to start with  have bags of money

and plenty of time  ie afull time pigeon man  you are up against it

[Guest]

a lot of birds are bought , without first doing some homework on the vendors situation and circumstances for example the vendor does,nt work , money no object , trains his birds every day while weathers good while your at work

live,s on the golden mile , theres one in every fed

send s one third of the race entrants    etc ect ect  im sure you get the gist  of it all

so really getting birds from this fancier would be a pointless exercise,unless you could do the same , at the end of the day if your a good fancier to start with  have bags of money

and plenty of time  ie afull time pigeon man  you are up against it

 

Yes but that goes to the route of the problem of pigeon racing it's the only sport I know of where the brighton ecclesiastical player is pitched against the man Utd player and is expected to compete on a level playing field. That's why Stuart's question is an excellent one because it encompasses all the issues that confront every single one of us in some way or another. If you ain't got the money you're more than likely to look to Louella for 6 for £120. If you have got the money you may go to louella for 1 for £1200 and still be in the same position! I'd managed to be a crap fancier for a quarter of a century because of my holy grail the eye and the vast majority attained my standard because we've all been trying to find a way to cut down the odds of being abe to select good birds cheaply. Let's be fair our sport is changing dramatically there are less and less fanciers but more and more well off fanciers who are targeting one loft races because they are looking for a return on their investment. Fortunately there are still fanciers like you and I who want to win at 500 mile + for the winning and not the money.

I do not want to be a hypocrite though, I would love to make a living from my pigeons that would be a real busman's holiday.

[Michael J Burden]

As Swilcox has said you got to do your home work, it is your money you are giving away.

The are those who do mislead and I know one close to me. His father died in the early 70's and this fancier never raced any pigeons since that time. He advertised every year as a racing and breeding stud of Dordins until very recently. He now has dropped the racing from the acvert.

Many a fancier has been seen coming away from his house with a big smile and a little box or two. I suspect the seller had the biggest smile of all.

[Guest cloudview]

as you say micheal its knowing your local area , and whose doing what against who

but then again here a typical example  a new starter near  ,started up back end of 2005

igave him 6 or 8 younguns in 06  ,distance lines ,at same time and old chap was pavking in thro ill health ,who had some good vanloons direct from  geoff frith ,lincoln  now this lad is a joiner in building trade ,out early back late , so training was a night mare any way the upshot is he timed 3 of my stock on day from saintes  two of them after 21 50 hours  so now he,s distance crazy

the vanloons which he has ,nt really give a chance are now going , the reason being , he contacted the original breeder for some information about the best way to fly them , as soon as the breeder said well i used to train them 25 miles every day that was deciding factor , no way was john prepared to go to them lenghths to win a club prize

but any one wanting quality vanloon sprint birds these are the buisness

no they have not won for him for obvios reasons

but the tools are there