Guest Owen Posted September 23, 2009 Report Share Posted September 23, 2009 IB you could well be right, when you say that we have left it too late. And, if we take a worse case scenario, the Pigeon Fanciers concerned in this dispute, may be very bad neighbours and brought the trouble on themselves. But, we don't know. I am happy to go down the road that vanlint is talking about. And, I would go further than him in one important respect. If, in cases like this, the Pigeon Fanciers are wrong, we should have the means to censor them and make them toe the line. As I understand it vanlint is trying to drag the Sport into the Modern World. There are a great many problems that we need to address and we have to be prepared to take a much more professional approach to them. In my opinion, it is time we got rid of the Jack Duckworth image and ditched the Flying Rats description of our birds. And we are not going to do that by trying to stand alone and complaining when things go wrong. And, again vanlint is right, when he says that we can't carry on trying to raise money by scrounging off the top flyers. It is possible that it is already too late to fix things, because the sport is run by old men who are stuck in the past. Not that there is anything wrong in becoming old, it is just that we need fresh, up to date ideas and methods to take us forward. I was appalled the other day to be told by a top administrator that he does not bother with computers and has no clue how to use them. These days everyone needs to know how to take advange of the technology that is readily available. So I will do what I can to try to back vanlint in his efforts to introduce a better way of doing things. And I sincerly hope there will be many more prepared to get behind him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alec Posted September 23, 2009 Report Share Posted September 23, 2009 is it the same in scotland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest IB Posted September 23, 2009 Report Share Posted September 23, 2009 Owen, I do not disagree with anything you have said, but I fear we are at cross purposes here. It is really us pigeon fanciers that have not kept abreast of the times; keeping pigeons is no longer looked upon as a 'normal' thing, and not everyone relishes the thought of living with a pigeon loft in the next garden. So we must double-check everything - permission, neighbours, restrictions - before we even think about taking over the property. I will be moving home within the next 5 years and I am not looking forward to it because I want to bring my pigeons with me. Only the other week I was discussing this with taxi driver, we are both moving for same reason, from detached properties that are too big for us, into smaller homes; he's just made the move, but he said he wouldn't like to have pigeons next door. I've also seen council house missives and am well aware that I would need council permission to keep my pigeons on my own property, if their property lies within 4 metres of any of my boundaries. So agree with you, as a pigeon fancier, I want to be in the right, and do nothing which brings our sport into disrepute, or makes it harder for the next person to get permission for their loft and pigeons. The Northern Ireland case is tragic, but it is a lesson for us all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Nagle Posted September 23, 2009 Report Share Posted September 23, 2009 http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/2007/12/22/story51136.asp I was fined €6,000 more in May for continuing failure to remove the loft and must pay by the end of October or do 6 months in jail. When I get out of jail, I will still owe the money. Best wishes to all other fanciers in a similar position. Chris Nagle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Owen Posted September 23, 2009 Report Share Posted September 23, 2009 IB To tell you the truth, I will probably be faced with a similar problem sooner than I would like. I have a big garden and I have no problems with the neighbours at all. But then, my birds never go onto the houses and I have more problems with their moggies than they have with my pigeons. I am now on the waiting list to have both my knees replaced. One at a time of course. I am now faced with the decision that I may have to move to a smaller more manageable place. Besides, my wife would like us to spend more time together abroad. Not really my cup of tea but I have to be fair to her. So I may have to, run the gauntlet, of where, when and who will be next door. I have no intention of giving up the pigeons but obviously I have to make sure that I do not run into trouble with them. As it turns out you and I are not far apart in regard to our potential problems for the future. And yes, I have taken note of what has happened to our Irish Friends. Nevertheless, I still think that vanlint is working on the right lines. And I sincerly hope that he will get the backing he needs to push his ideas forward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glenrandal Posted September 23, 2009 Report Share Posted September 23, 2009 this fancier needs the help and support of the RPRA we may be next.................... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest IB Posted September 23, 2009 Report Share Posted September 23, 2009 is it the same in scotland The position here in Scotland is that many private house builders and local councils have a 'no animals' clause in the deeds / missives. My council specifically mentions their permission is required to keep cats, dogs, pigeons on their property, and that this will not be unreasonably withheld. In addition, pigeon lofts over a certain size also require planning permission. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PIGEON_MAN Posted September 23, 2009 Report Share Posted September 23, 2009 this fancier needs the help and support of the RPRA we may be next.................... However sad some people might think this is can you really expect the RPRA or any other union to back someone who as broken the Law somehow I dont think so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glenrandal Posted September 23, 2009 Report Share Posted September 23, 2009 However sad some people might think this is can you really expect the RPRA or any other union to back someone who as broken the Law somehow I dont think so. if we all take that attitude then pigeon racing as a hobby is facing real problems........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
showman Posted September 23, 2009 Report Share Posted September 23, 2009 Hi Folks, Have just had a lengthy conversation with John Edgar to find out the current state of the parties !! The family in question are due back in the Magistrate courts in February 2010. Whilst there is no argument, per se, by the family regarding Planning regulations, there are quite a few more twists and turns to the case. Unfortunately, being a one-fingered typist, it would take me 'til Sunday to put it all down here !! Whilst this case is still at Magistrate level, John has talked to an official at County level, who has encouraged him a bit by saying he could see Johns' point of view, and that if he had the money, it could be taken further !! If anyone would like a few more details, I will gladly discuss same.....Ph. 028 3888 1001 as like I say, there's too much to start typing it down here. I remainSincerely Paul PS Don't worry about phoning late, as I intend to stay up until midnight in case anyone rings !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vanlink Posted September 23, 2009 Report Share Posted September 23, 2009 However sad some people might think this is can you really expect the RPRA or any other union to back someone who as broken the Law somehow I dont think so. It is not about supporting someone who has broken the law, and by the way a law has not been broken, i am sure that they did not pass a bill through the houses of parliment banning pigeons from ones garden, this is rather an over zelous council bullying innocent people. We are talking about peoples right to keep racing pigeons which dates back over 100 years. People park on pavements all the time which is against the law, what is done about that? nothing. Regardless of the rights and wrongs of the case a union has an obligation to its members and to the survial of the sport. Lets face it, what our unions really doing to save our sport? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PIGEON_MAN Posted September 23, 2009 Report Share Posted September 23, 2009 if we all take that attitude then pigeon racing as a hobby is facing real problems........ So you are saying we should take no notice of the law and do as we please this family have allready been fined by the courts for disregarding the law If we all did the same then pigeon racing would be finished not in trouble. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest IB Posted September 23, 2009 Report Share Posted September 23, 2009 It is not about supporting someone who has broken the law, and by the way a law has not been broken, i am sure that they did not pass a bill through the houses of parliment banning pigeons from ones garden, this is rather an over zelous council bullying innocent people. We are talking about peoples right to keep racing pigeons which dates back over 100 years. People park on pavements all the time which is against the law, what is done about that? nothing. Regardless of the rights and wrongs of the case a union has an obligation to its members and to the survial of the sport. Lets face it, what our unions really doing to save our sport? I suggest you read the thread again and make yourself aware of the facts as known. In Northern Ireland planning permission is required to keep racing pigeons. This is the link:- http://www.planningni.gov.uk/index/policy/supplementary_guidance/dgn/dgn06.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
showman Posted September 23, 2009 Report Share Posted September 23, 2009 Been talking to John again.......Union has been involved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Owen Posted September 23, 2009 Report Share Posted September 23, 2009 I hope vanlint will keep us all in the loop so that we can play our part in trying to drag this Sport into the present. I have had a huge amount of pleasure from my pigeons and I am sure that plenty of others have to. And I think that it is far too good to die. Jim Jenner the American film maker and writter has been involved in several projects to help young people, who have lost their way, through pigeons. And I am sure that the love of live creatures can have a beneficial effect on a lot of youngsters in this country. Pigeon Racing can be a force for good if we can show it to youngsters and help them to understand something about it. I notice that women are becoming involved these days. And just like other branches of our lives it is not just us men who dominate. I have read a lot about the set up in Spring Hill, Florida. What a wonderful way things have developed there. The membership is mostly older men who have retired to that area to fly their birds. The competition is about as keen as it gets and the Sport is seen as repectable and worthwhile. When we compare all this with the secret activity the Sport has become here in the UK, we ought to be getting off our bottoms and doing something about it. And a good start would be to suport the ideas of vanlint and others like him. Why should we be unprepared to share something so pleasurable and rewarding as keeping and racing our birds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest wes hall Posted September 23, 2009 Report Share Posted September 23, 2009 hi i am a new poster wes hall dont be bullied by the council we have been through hel with them the council my sister in law with learning difficuties lost her mother who looked after her all her life died and the council told us she had to get out of the house because her mother didnt put her on the housing register she and my wife was born there 60 years it would have killed her to leeve so we moved in with her to take over not asking the councill for a penny for benifits or nurses to come in we went to court at our exspence and not only did we win the judge gave them a right going over for what they done to this old lady the best part is he told us we had the right to buy the house and now ive put a 24 foot pigeon loft in the back gardenjust had to let you now they can be beeten because i was mad when i red about the family being drove out because they keep pigeons Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vanlink Posted September 24, 2009 Report Share Posted September 24, 2009 Thanks Wes, I may be wrong about it not being planning law to have a loft in NI but that does not make it right. It may be right to have in place a way to protect neighbours from nusiance pigeon fanciers but this should not then give cart blanch to attack pigeon fanciers for the sake of it. I thank god that you had a good judge and it is such a shame that the jobs worths at the council did not have any compassion but luckily it all turned out well in the end. Great post by Owen. And Showman good to hear that the Union has been involed. What can we all do now to help? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 24, 2009 Report Share Posted September 24, 2009 I probable break laws the same as anyone does but the last thing I would ask for was sympathy if I got caught.I'm not saying you would, but you would not appreciate ridicule either would you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 24, 2009 Report Share Posted September 24, 2009 I suggest you read the thread again and make yourself aware of the facts as known. In Northern Ireland planning permission is required to keep racing pigeons. This is the link:- http://www.planningni.gov.uk/index/policy/supplementary_guidance/dgn/dgn06.htm This statute came into effect 1st December 1992 so if this person lived there prior to that or can evidence that the loft has been there prior to that then he may have an argument to put forward because from what my Son tells me, and he's a Legally qualifed you can't backdate a law or can't enforce it. Has anyone established when this loft was built? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
showman Posted September 24, 2009 Report Share Posted September 24, 2009 Hi JarGre The loft was erected circ. 2000 / 2001 Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vanlink Posted September 25, 2009 Report Share Posted September 25, 2009 Gonna speak to showman tonight to find out the state of play, gonna speak to David bills on monday to find out where the RPRA is on this. I suppose what i am asking now is this. If this happened to you, would you expect the assosiation or union to back you 100%? and if they did not would you hope that someone would put some pressure on them to make them act? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 25, 2009 Report Share Posted September 25, 2009 Hi JarGre The loft was erected circ. 2000 / 2001 PaulThanks, because the councils have the powers of delegated legislation to make by-laws it seems they have this case pretty cut and shut although it might be argued its unfair using the nuisance argument because cats cause far more nuisance than pigeons ever will. Have some other info but am not going to post it on open forum, if the person with the problem wants to contact me they can via p.m. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superstar Posted September 25, 2009 Report Share Posted September 25, 2009 If it does not comply with local planning law then it makes no difference what you, the union or the man in the moon says. And if its not down in the time they allocate then there is a charge per day after that date, and in the end they will remove it for you and charge you for the service and through the nose too I might add! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vanlink Posted September 25, 2009 Report Share Posted September 25, 2009 I beg to differ. Public pressure can change things. But we can not even get 100% agreement on here. I hope the negative poeple never face the situation becasue if we can not change it this time then we never will. Planning can be changed and often is at appeal usally tho it is becuase some one is making money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred smyth Posted September 25, 2009 Report Share Posted September 25, 2009 just seen in the paper today all sorts of licences gave out this year to keep wild animals including a tiger wolfs all sorts of things ,, but ask can u keep pigeons oh no way there a danger , as allways sometimes the LAW IS AN ASS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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