How Pigeons navigate

[Joe90]

Take a read of this info http://www.txtwriter.com/Onscience/Articles/pigeons.html

 

your comments please

 

We had a smash in france a few weeks ago now and we just got 1 bird back out of 7, not many in our fed got birds at all

 

But concorde is grounded so that blows this guys idea out the window

 

 

[Guest]

Its an article from 1997, Joe90, which was repeated in the BHW a few years back. Blamed a particularly bad race on convoy being caught over the Channel in Concorde's 'sonic envelope' as it powered up into supersonic flight Mach?.  

 

Wouldn't think that nature would bestow just a single homing faculty on the bird, more likely that it has been given 'a number of things' which the bird uses to get home. And by inference, it would also take 'an unlucky combination of a number of other things' to stop the bird getting home too.

 

 

[frank-123]

Bilco in last weeks bhw  was talking about the x flare something to do with the

sun being in a very high rating.The last weeks of august and september there was a lot of losses when this sun x flare was very high i dont know enough about this but we should look to see if this may hinder our birds homing ability

[mealybar]

Through conversations with certain people I've come to aggree that the Concorde theory isnt the whole picture ( - however it made good news in the papers!). More so the reason for the losses that day was poor weather.

 

I believe Bilco is onto something with his X flare/K factor information. Had some awful races/tosses 2 years ago, only thing I could put it down to was the K factor, think I posted about this somewhere else on the board too - anyway => http://www.pigeonbasics.com/articles/article2.html

[Guest]

There has been a lot of talk in the USA this year regrading the K Factor(Sun Flares) as most areas have sustained very very heavy losses especially with young birds. We had an extremely bad race from 200 miles with heavy losses but the California combine who were more or less flying from the same race point as us south had a great race 1700 ypm with very few losses.  I heard yesterday that New York Jersey and several of the east coast clubs and futurities lost most of their birds this past weekend, but this was put down to extremely bad liberating with rain all along the race course. Cornell University have been studying Pigeons Navigation capabilities for several years now and I dont think they have reached any final conclusions.

[showman]

I remember when I was racing I was loath to train or race youngsters in the month of August because this was when the occurence of solar flares increased.

 

Paul.

[Guest]

Had a wee bit of a look at the solar flare 'theory'. Wrote a letter published in BHW 14th October on it. (Misprint in it, bit of sabotage, methinks.)

 

[justify]The first clue to the relevance of these flares to le little peoples on earth is that the technology is there for the protection of Le Shuttle and other space craft and their astronauts, while they are in space (not on the ground).[/justify]

 

[justify]The second clue is that the flares are directional: the sun is a spinning globe and throws the stuff off in one direction - the earth may not be in its path at all - like Bilco's X-17, came off the sun's eastern edge and off into space AWAY from the earth.[/justify]

 

[justify]The third clue is that the same release of energy happens all the time (coronal mass ejections) but without warning and completely 'invisible' - no spectacle for the modern-day sun worshippers there. So we only get affected when we can SEE the stuff?[/justify]

 

[justify]The fourth clue is that the sun has being doing this for as long as the sun and earth were formed; the earth has developed its own outer protection - the atmosphere - and the earth's magnetic field 400 miles above us is the main shield - almost everything the sun throws our way (energy) bounces off that shield and onwards into space.[/justify]

 

[justify]The fifth clue is that the magnetic field isn't static - it is fluctuating all the time - and every living thing on earth must be able to cope with that fluctuation otherwise that species would be extinct. (adaptive evolution) [/justify]

 

[justify]The fifth clue is in the thread's beginning: the flare theory arose because of the use the pigeon makes of magnetic fields in homing. But surely after 60 million years birds have kind of got used to fluctuating magnetic fields and can adjust 'their bearings'? Or 'kick in' another one of their homing faculties ?[/justify]

 

[justify]The sixth clue I've saved till last, bit techy. Einstein's theories. (think it was him). You can not add to or lose energy. The earth is the same. The little bit of energy from the sun that gets through the magnetic field 'powers' the atmosphere and the 'extra' bit of energy here goes straight back out into space. Perfect Balance. There's no additional 'bits' left here to throw any living creature off line, far less homing pigeons. [/justify]

 

 

[Guest Silverwings]

not so sure about solar flares being the cause ? in the 60s and 70s we did not experience these kind of losses , and solar flares were about then , maybe the damage to the ozone is allowing these flares to create hovoc with our recent climate who knows ? a few years ago i experimented with radio waves  i installed a C B system and conected  speakers from  it to the loft ,close to my loft is a telephone axchange this gives out a constant type of signal that we made a tape of ,this tape was then played from the CB through to the loft , the  wave was played constantly from pairing to weaning , the hatch from that period was only 50 % succsessfull ! as the months continued the youngsters that survived the hatch were subjected to this wave only at feeding times ? the speakers were then removed from the loft  ,the same evening the youngsters were away from the loft execsising ,this wave was then amplified through channel 19 over the airwaves, within a few minutes the youngsters returned  trapping instantly and clamoured around the feed trough ? the same thing hapened on several occasions ,of those 24 youngsters we only lost 2 all season  ,so who knows maybe those young birds became resistant to other waves ? or maybe they could handle the stress better food for thourght .....look forward to readin your replies on this !

[Guest]

Er, Pavlovian response, Silverwings.  

 

Same effect as ringing a bell, shaking a can of peas, calling the birds in: repeated over and over again, the birds associate that sound (whether its audible to you or not) with food.

 

Need to come back to you on the Ozone layer. Don't quote me - but I reckon its actually a lot lower down in the atmosphere, maybe a couple of hundred miles?

 

What do you reckon caused the bad hatch? Did you notice any unusual restlessness in the birds while they were sitting eggs for example?

 

 

[jimmy white]

SILVER WINGS A VERY INTERESTING ARTICLE, I AGREE ABOUT THE SOLAR FLARES BEING THERE YEARS AGO AND NOT HAVING THE SAME LOSSES THEN, THE REST OF YOUR ARTICLE ALLTHOUGH VERY INTERESTING, COULD BE COINCIDENCES, BUT ON THE OTHER HAND WHO KNOWS, ITS A VERY STRANGE WORLD WE LIVE IN NOWADAYS, ITS COMMING TO THE STAGE WHERE ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE, I CAN DEFINATELY SAY, THAT DUE TO MY OWN EXPERIENCE, IN THE LAST 50 YEARS, THAT THESE MAIN BIG LOSSES STARTED ABOUT 20 YEARS AGO, AND SINCE THEN HAS INCREASINGLY GOTTEN WORSE, I MEAN WHO WOULD BELEIVE I RACED 9 YBS IN 1958[ AS A BOY], RACED EVERY YB RACE , SENT 2 TO THE YB NAT WICH THEN WAS CHELTENHAM APPROX 300 MILES, GOT THE TWO HOME ,NEVER SCORED, BUT BACK IN REASONABLE TIME, WHAT IM TRYING TO SAY IS FROM THE VERY FIRST TOSS TO THE YB NAT, I DROPPED 2 PIGEONS, AND THAT WAS QUITE THE NORM THEN, I THINK MOST PEOPLE WOULD AGREE WITH ME , THAT WOULD BE IMPOSSIBLE NOWADAYS, WILL WE EVER GET TO THE BOTTOM OF IT,,,, [PARDON THAT PUN TO THE FORUM MEBER THAT NEW OF MY RECENT PROBLEM ] IT CERTAINLY IS A STRANGE WORLD WERE LIVING IN TODAY.

[Guest Silverwings]

bruno ! what the xxxx is a pavlovian my sec mod ed does not allow me those type of words so please excuse my inigrance , er,yep i,agree with the bell and whistle stuff but still can not figure out how they could ear an aerial ? spoke to some C B people at the time they said bloody pigeons are crashin into their antennas all the time , they used the word HEAT instead of wave ? am still non the wiser . the pigeons were very calm all the time , me pigeons are very tame now as they were then and never show any external stress , and i could not feel any stress within them either ! their heart rate seemed normal , and their breething rythm averaged between 24 - 34 respirations a minute the norm for mine  ,one thing i did notice though all me mice left the loft ? at  that time some nice ones there were too !...a bloke once said to me the best way to get rid of mice is....put two white mice in your loft on the stroke of midnight  " WHY " i said ..... he said the wild ones will see them and think they are ghosts ? will get scared and run away ..... nice of you to reply jimmy white agree withe the old pigeons having a bit more up  top, in those days we were all tring to create our own famillys and not relying un some belgian bloke to send us a ready made one over evry few years, however times change and you have to move with them or get left behind ! my old putman are as good today as,they were then and will stay fore ever but stayers are all they are ? the new voets stay all day but twice as fast ......still play snooker jim ?

[Peckedhen]

One thing that has increased dramatically, over the last few years, is the use of mobile phones. Not sure whether they affect the birds or not but there are new masts cropping up all over the place. :-/ :-/

[Guest Silverwings]

good point about the mobile phones missie ! when i did the experiments with the CB  they were not so many , but your ded right could be something in it ,now you have my head going again perhaps the crewe on here could work out some experiments to check this out ? or ill have to do it on me own ? keep the pressure on this one ! maybe we can breed abit of resistance int them ?

[Guest Silverwings]

good point about the mobile phones missie ! when i did the experiments with the CB  they were not so many , but your ded right could be something in it ,now you have my head going again perhaps the crewe on here could work out some experiments to check this out ? or ill have to do it on me own ? keep the pressure on this one ! maybe we can breed abit of resistance into them ?

[Guest]

May have understood you, Silverwings. Thought you were playing 'radio signals or waves' everytime you fed the pigeons. Just because your ear can't hear them doesn't mean nothing else can either. Dogs & cats can hear higher sound frequencies than us.

 

Poor old Pavlov? The Russian scientist who discovered 'conditioned reflex'. You've probably heard of it; the old slobbering dog trick? (Why does that suddenly remind me of JW?   ;D  ) Put down the dog's dinner, and rang a bell. Repeated x times. One day rang bell, no dinner, but dog still salivated  - all over the place.

 

On the Ozone layer: thin layer around 50/100 miles above earth, and well within the overall protective shield.

 

Your bad hatch might have had something to do with mice and, possibly paratyphus. They p*ss everywhere.

[Guest Silverwings]

no bruno ! could not have been the mice treated them along with the bats ,   rats and cats with baytril and beside that our mice are potty trained ! nice to see some funny stuff on here  eh ? just looked at a website concerning a orange phone mast  and racing pigeons (www.cellphone.ca ) starts of with abit of info but my  computer skills restrict me finding out anything else only just getting in to all this

[Guest]

INFRASOUND NAVIGATION?

 

Emails with Douglas Quine

 

"Sir,

 

The background to my contacting you is huge unexplained annual losses in racing pigeons, particularly young birds less than 12 months old.

 

I have no knowledge of how a pigeon uses sound in getting home (and I would say very few others have either!) Discovering your previous work set me wondering if there is 'sound (s)' out there which could affect a pigeon's homing ability so badly and capable of disorienting them in large numbers so that 000's are lost and never heard from again. This happens every year and that is the scale of our problem.

 

Any information you or your colleagues could provide would be most appreciated.

 

 

Thanks

 

 

(Reply)

 

 

"Thanks for the note. I should caution you that I've not been investigating homing pigeon navigation for about 25 years so I'm hardly the most current source of information. although I certainly do keep out an eye for any news.

 

I've heard of "crash" years in which inexperienced homing pigeons were lost in unusual numbers but I don't believe there is much information about the cause. I recall that people used to speculate that sunspots, nearby magnetic anomalies (iron mines), and the like might be causes as well. Inexperienced birds are believed to require that all their navigational cues are available while the more experienced ones may be able to substitute one for another if conditions require. For instance, in Ithaca, New York there are often days of full overcast which prevents the birds from using their sun compasses and is believed to force them to use their magnetic compass. Experienced birds may do well while inexperienced birds have a hard time.

 

My work indicated that homing pigeons can "hear" about 10 octaves lower than we can. What (or whether) they use this capability for navigation is completely unknown. It might also be associated with an altimeter for altitude measurement rather than for geographical navigation.

 

I appreciate your comments about capturing the archive. Certainly the published papers are intact and are available."

 

 

Regards –

Doug"

 

 

Some of Douglas Quine’s published work / seminars given on homing pigeons:-

 

Mar 1987 Ecology, Ethology, & Evolution, University of Illinois: "The infrasound sense of homing pigeons."

 

Feb 1987 Biology 123, University of Illinois: "Magnetic and visual senses in animals."

 

Jul 1985 Minisymposium on Avian Navigation, Neurobiology & Behaviour, Cornell University: "Studies of birds migration using Doppler weather radar."

 

Nov 1984 Research Seminar, Air Force Geophysical Laboratory, Sudbury, MA: "Bird navigation systems."

 

Dec 1983 Biomedical Engineering Seminar, Tulane University: "Many octaves below human hearing: Pigeons hear and discriminate infrasound - Where could it get them?"

 

Jun 1983 Animal Behavior Society Meeting, Bucknell University: "Olfactory navigation of pigeons (Columba livia): Effects of odorous air currents in America and Italy."

 

Nov 1982 Psychology Colloquium, Tulane University: "Pigeons hear 8 octaves below the range of human hearing: Could it help them home?"

 

Sep 1981 International Symposium on Avian Navigation, Tirrenia, Italy: "Pigeons detect infrasound: Could it guide them home?"

 

Apr 1980 Orientation and Migration Conference, The Rockefeller University: "Infrasound frequency discrimination by the homing pigeon."

 

 

[Guest Silverwings]

interesting infotmation ! was not aware of the lower levels of hearing ! would radio waves be classed as sound ? will go on the net and read up on this later ,thanks for the interest bruno