eyesign real or fake

[Jack Barkel]

Hello Tony,

 

You will always get a straight answer from me, that is why I am not well received in some circles, at least I live with the courage of my convictions.

 

In answer to your question, let me give you only one example. A pair of pigeons that were both national winners were paired together without my knowledge, each owner had shared 6 youngsters each off them.

On looking at the eyes and being asked how they would pair together successfully, I stated that they were incompatible and would breed less than average birds when paired together, or certainly nothing of worth at the accepted rate of more than 7%. This proved to be the case with all 12 offspring, nothing of value was produced in this experiment.

 

So my answer is I would rather go with the two birds where I could look at the eyes and decide they were good for breeding and a perfect match. There is no guarantee that two national winners will breed top pigeons when paired together because of their own performances. However I give a guarantee that birds from my selection on handling and viewing will produce a minimum of 50% quality offspring. The world average rating for this is 7% taking into account all breeders of racing pigeons.

 

So there you have my answer, two pair of unseen eyes have only a paper pedigree, eyes that have been viewed correctly have their genetic pedigree printed on their eyes, we still have to examine their physical characteristics to coincide with the eyes although if the eye is tops, usually so are the other characteristics.

 

Regards

 

Jack

[PIGEON_MAN]

THANKS VERY MUCH FOR YOUR ANSWEAR JACK AS A FELLOW EYESIGN FOLLOWER FOR OVER 40 YEARS THAT IS THE ANSWEAR I EXPECTED,I HAVE SAID THE SAME THING TO FANCIERS MANY TIMES AND HAVE HAD SOME VERY FUNNY REMARKS SUCH AS YOU MUST BE MAD IF YOU WOULDN,T HAVE A PAIR OF YOUNGSTER,S OF NATIONAL WINNERS RATHER THAN A PAIR FROM TWO PIGEONS THAT HAVE BEEN PAIRED BY THE EYES AND NOT BY PERFORMANCES.I HAVE OFTEN THOUGHT THIS TO BE MOST OF THE PROBLEM WHY PEOPLE ARE LOSING SO MANY YOUNGSTER,S THEY ARE BREEDING AND BUYING OFF PIGEON,S WITH PAPER PEDIGREE,S AND RACING PERFORMANCES AND AS YOU STATED ABOVE MOST OF THE TIME IT JUST DONT WORK.

[THE FIFER]

A GOOD THING DURING THE WINTER MONTHS FOR SHOWS

[PIGEON_MAN]

Hello Tony,

 

In answer to your question, let me give you only one example. A pair of pigeons that were both national winners were paired together without my knowledge, each owner had shared 6 youngsters each off them.

On looking at the eyes and being asked how they would pair together successfully, I stated that they were incompatible and would breed less than average birds when paired together, or certainly nothing of worth at the accepted rate of more than 7%. This proved to be the case with all 12 offspring, nothing of value was produced in this experiment.

So my answer is I would rather go with the two birds where I could look at the eyes and decide they were good for breeding and a perfect match. There is no guarantee that two national winners will breed top pigeons when paired together because of their own performances. However I give a guarantee that birds from my selection on handling and viewing will produce a minimum of 50% quality offspring..

HOPEFULLY JACK SOME MAY LOOK AT THIS AND REALISE HOW JUST MUCH OF A MISTAKE THEY COULD BE MAKING WHEN IT COMES TO BREEDING OFF BIRDS THAT HAVE HAD GOOD RACE PERFORMANCES BUT WILL NOT BREED ANY THING ANY GOOD.I WONDER WHAT SORT OF MONEY COULD OF BEEN PAYED OUT FOR THE 12 YOUNGSTER,S OFF THE 2 NATIONAL WINNERS BY UNSUSPECTED FANCIER,S WHO THOUGHT THEY WERE GETTING SOMETHING GOOD JUST BECAUSE THE PARENTS HAD WON NATIONAL RACES.

 

 

 

[pender]

wonder how many of the birds had good eyes from the lanarkfed smash race at the week end. would be interesting to see what the eyes of the ones that came back were like. my own loft i have 2 home and would say out of the 18 sent they would be down in about 14 and 16 post.

[PIGEON_MAN]

OBVIOUSLEY I WAS AS SHOCKED TO HEAR OF SO MANY LOSSES AS ANYONE ELSE BUT THE POINT HERE WAS TO ASK WHAT ONE MEMBER THOUGHT OF BREEDING OFF PIGEONS WITH NATIONAL WINS OR PIGEON,S THAT HAD BEEN PAIRED BY THE EYE ONLY.I,M SURE THERE WERE MANY GOOD EYED BIRDS LOST AS WELL AS RETURNED,THEIR NOT ALL RUBBISH THAT GET LOST LIKEWISE THEY ARE NOT ALL GOOD THAT RETURN.

[schouwman71]

i had a pure white hen off roland janssen (pure white) she had a very nice pillar box red eye and her circle around the pupil was old gold, if i still had her i would put a photo up of her and her eye.

[THE FIFER]

JUST FOR INTEREST I HAVE A WESTY WHICH HAS TO DIFFERENT COLOUR EYES IS THIS COMMEN WITH RACERS,

[Jack Barkel]

Hello Fifer,

 

We can have odd eyed pigeons, especially where the pied factor comes into play in the genes. However if you have one eye much more pale than the other in the same base colour, then it is sure that this bird at some time had a debilitating illness and although it may now be cured it has been left with liver or kidney damage.

 

In such cases these birds do not perform well in a hard race and never produce young to high standards anymore. It is usually permanent and although the body has been known to repair this organ damage, it is on very rare occasions.

 

Just make sure the difference in eye colour is from the dark pigment usually seen in a partially bull eye, and not a fading of one eye.

 

To Schouwman, your bird may look pure white but with that description of the eye, its background can only be Grizzle. All pure whites have bull eyes.

 

Regards

 

Jack

 

 

[sportagraphs]

Tony sorry for the delay in answering, I am in the corner of both Jack and you that I would need to see the eyes before pairing. Being a good racer does not mean being a prolific breeder. Many years ago when I first got into eyesign we had a mealy cock that in total won 10 firsts including 2 x South Lancs Combine (which at the time sent 6000 birds +). He had a lovely racing eye up to probably 200 miles. Although this cock was never a national winner beating 6000 birds twice is no mean feat. To cut a long story short my dad wanted to breed off this cock as many youngsters as he could and I said all along that I didnt believe he would breed his like. And he didnt.

 

The mistake we made at the time was that we did not go around the sales and find a hen with a strong breeding eye. In hindsight I think that paired to a good breeding eye his racing genes may have combined well. But as I was only 16 at the time I think my dad thought I was going with the eyesign fashion brigade. Some years later he admitted defeat when I picked a young hen, she was very very wild and was starting o irritate my dad. I picked her out as a breeder and dad agreed to give her a try, again to cut a long story short every pigeon she bred (with several different cocks) either won or was a prize winner, she ended as dam and grand dam of wigan amal winners. She also calmed down when she moved into the stock loft as it was obvious that flying spooked her.

 

As with everything concerning pigeons you must have an open mind and take everything into consideration.

 

 

 

 

[Roland]

Well seems to me  - as a person that sit on the fence - that this may be of an interest.. would welcome viws of course from Jack.

http://www.universaloptic.com/home

[Jack Barkel]

Hello Roland & All.

 

This is a very touchy subject to answer, as I would rather leave people alone with their own ideas. Having said this to give you my views, a cock not worthy of the stock loft should never be paired to a good hen with stock potential. It is an utter waste of time for any hens from such a pairing will prove useless, and any cock from this pairing can inherit from either parent. Therefore some cocks as I have stated with all hens will also be useless if they inherit the vital genes from the father of such a pairing. All hens will inherit the sex genes from the father and not from the mother.

 

There is much more than this to pairing to tip the balance of inheritance, and without inviting an argument on the subject, this in my opinion and many top breeders throughout the world will agree that if the cock has not the breeding eye one can't found a loft on such a pigeon.

 

You cannot found a loft on a hen, but you can found a loft on a son of a hen that bears his characteristics. One must adhere to perfect line of descent if one wishes to be a successful breeder. That is to say line breed to a sire through his daughters, grand daughters, great granddaughters and so on down the line. Any cock paired to it's mother produces outcrosses, once one understands this, we are half way there to breeding controlled racer breeders of merit.

 

Of course selection is the final criteria. I hope this helps and if one does not agree, I will not be drawn into any arguments on the subject. It is only my steadfast opinion and I will not change it after breeding for 50 years plus to this method.

 

Kind Regards

 

Jack

 

[bewted]

hi jack,agree 100% with you on your last mail,only a good cock bird will be the foundation of your loft,heard that statement 20 odd yrs ago,,,ted

[piller]

Hi Jack,

I enjoy reading and learning from your posts.  Could you please comment further on founding a loft around a cock and the perfect line of descent?

 

My understanding is that you start with a foundation cock and keep his direct daughters in the family.  Can these daughters be from multiple hens?  As for direct sons, they are outcrosses and not kept in the family.

 

Then the foundation cock is mated to direct daughters, producing grandsons and granddaughters.  I take it that both the grandsons and granddaughters produced by this method can be kept in the family as breeders?

 

Do you prefer that the foundation cock be yellow or pearl eyed?   As for the matings in the family, do you recommend pairing yellow to pearl?

 

Finally, with the perfect line of descent, can one ever introduce outside blood to the family and if so how is this done?

 

Thanks,

Chip

[Jack Barkel]

Hello Chip,

 

I thank you for your interesting reply, it is very encouraging to realise that there are fanciers out there who are interested in the creation of a family or strain. You are right in your understanding to keep his direct daughters in the family. The reason being that they inherit 100% sex genes from their father. Daughters do not inherit any sex genes from their mother and yet the hen as it possesses the XY chromosome denotes the sex of the children from any coupling. Because of these facts the daughters can be from multiple hens, although once you start your perfect line of decent the hens should be daughters of daughters. This can be continued up to seven generations without deterioration, although I have found that between three and four generations with close line breeding I produce the clone type specimens I am really looking for.

 

If we take the grandsons as well as the granddaughters produced by this method, we are starting a new related family line originating with that particular grandson we have decided to introduce as a stock cock.

 

I prefer the foundation cock to be a yellow eye, for the pearl was introduced from the Smerle, Owl, Cumulet and other fancy pigeons that were introduced to the racing pigeon to make it more buoyant and not so heavy boned. By using a pearl eye as a foundation we can regress to these type of pigeons, although with strict control of physical characteristics and the pearl eye, success can be achieved by using a pearl eyed cock. I always recommend pairing yellow to pearl, sometimes yellow to yellow , but never pearl to pearl for this latter pairing will increase speed and vitality but not at the same rate as it reduces stamina and homing ability.

 

Now for your final question.

After line breeding to perfect line of descent for three to four generations, one will start to produce sons and daughters perfect and identical in every way to the original foundation cock. This is when you take this type of brother and sister and cross the line, that is to say inbreed by pairing them together. All cocks from this type of pairing will be exact replicas to the original sire. This is when you introduce outside blood to the family,  pairing these none related hens to cocks of this brother and sister pairings. This will create hybrid vigour by introducing good none related hens to these line bred then inbred stock cocks. This is the method I use to reproduce my top stock cocks, and also control the family vigour by these hybrid pairings to start a new line of the same family.

 

I thank you for such an intelligent line of questioning and I hope my reply sheds light on much that has puzzled many fanciers for generations.

 

Regards To All,

 

Jack Barkel

[snowy]

very interested in the eyes,  since Silverwings (ray) showed me a few of his through his eye glass.

oh well just got myself an eye glass, so i will start looking.

looked at this site its a great article on 2 nestmates eyes, as 1 is kept in the nestbox 8 hours a day

and the other has 8 hours in the avairy a day,

just look at the difference.

p.s.

these a few good links too, one on jacks views .

thanks jack.

http://www.albertaclassic.net/eyes/ChangingEyes.php

 

[piller]

Two questions:

1) What's the status of the new Jack Barkel book?  I tried to get one in the US but was told there had been a shipping problem.

 

2) Breeder selection, pairing for eyesign:  Can one breed to produce offspring with improved  eyesign, and if so how?  

 

Thanks,

Chip

[THE FIFER]

judging eye sign class this saturday, it's good for shows, and like how do pigeons navigate an interesting subject.

[Guest TAMMY_1]

What would u reckon on the eye of this pigeon

 

I'ts wide open

[AigleAwirs]

Hello! What do you think about that eye?

 

http://www.herbots.be/sales_auctions/public_auctions/person_pig.asp?auct_id=30&nr_in_auct=42

 

Thanks for your help!

[birdman55678]

In my opinion its not a good enough pix to tell much from.. other than its a white eye.....

[AigleAwirs]

;D sorry