Eyesign Facts not Theory,

[Guest IB]

 

Some one who enjoys looking at eyes at times. But only to see the health of the pigeon ..  

 

 

 

I agree. Trained Opticians are able to recognise signs of general ill-health from their eye examinations.

 

The geneticist, animal breeder and pigeon fancier , Prof Alfons Anker named a genetic trait 'intelligence' which he looked for in his OBs. He reckoned the face - includes the eye    had an expression, a certain intelligent look to it.

 

You've probably seen it manys a time, look at a pigeon and its looking back at you with a look on its face that says - wot YOU lookin at, bawhied?

[timbarra]

Hello all, if I had to determine which of the two eyes illistrated was the eye of an inbred bird I would settle with eye number 2, as its circle of correlation or circle around the eye has less depth and there is smooth iris tissue within the iris. Please could you let me know the result of my choice. thank you Taylors loft for your pictures.

 

regards spencer

 

 

 

IB I agree totally with your last statement,

 

Pigeon-man, the fact that your 2 best breeders were strays and selected on eyesign is nothing to prove your fact for selection through eyesign, as you must have chossen all your breeders on eyesign, and to say 2 strays turned out your best breeders says alot for your eyesign selection with regards to the rest of your breeders !!  your selection process therefore has fault possibly.

[PIGEON_MAN]

[

 

Pigeon-man, the fact that your 2 best breeders were strays and selected on eyesign is nothing to prove your fact for selection through eyesign, as you must have chossen all your breeders on eyesign, and to say 2 strays turned out your best breeders says alot for your eyesign selection with regards to the rest of your breeders !!  your selection process therefore has fault possibly.

 

Your right Timbarra I have selected my breeders on eyesign and all have bred winners,I was just stating a fact about the best breeders I have I,m sure everyone as some breeders that are better than others,the fact that the best 2 were strays and that I chose to keep them by  what I could see in the eyes tells me that you are wrong in your statement that you cannot tell a good bird by looking at it,s eye,those are facts not theory,s.I,ll ask again what facts can you give that you cannot tell a good pigeon by looking at it,s eyes,the title of your thread is FACTS NOT THEORY.

[Guest]

Tony,

you are totally wasting your time mate! Honestly, just continue what you are doing with your birds, it is obviously working for you!

 

I've read through your thread Spencer, and I assume this is what you wouldn't pm me all that time ago? As i stated on the thread then, if, you can do what you say you can do, then it is an impressive skill to boast. But to be truthfull, I fail to see much use for it in the game today, as Gangster states, if required you can get them DNA tested. I haven't any eye photos of my birds or I would have put some up out of interest alone, but thats as far as my interest in your theory would have gone. I sincerely do not see any benefit or chances of improving my birds in this, your theory, for me.

 

It is quite clear given the history of your postings, that you do not believe in eyesign, and that I can accept. Stating that eyesign shouldn't be used as a selection tool as it does not work or is not 100%, and condemning those that do use/believe in it, I can not.

 

I have stated from day one with you, that I am no eyesign expert. I have, as has my uncle, on many occasions giving factual evidence to you which you discard with disdain. This indicates to me that you think that I am a liar. I do not care whether you believe in it or not, but i believe that you should allow those that want to learn, to do just that.

 

I have for approximately 22 years used eyesign to aid with the development of my birds. If I had followed what you say/preach, then i would have missed out on some of the most exhilarating experiences in my life. I have yet to read anything from you, or the others that continually snipe at my uncle from afar, that can sway me from my practices. My successes, and failures, are my own evidence of proof to me that eyesign works to improve my birds. Your theory will highlight yours. I cannot dispute that eyesign is not 100% positive, but there is nothing in this world that is 100% guaranteed apart from Death, (and maybe taxes, or that you will respond in a negative fashion, again!)

 

To be truthfull, i am stunned that this is what you have been shouting about all of this time. However, as long as you are happy in what you are doing, i wish you good luck with it, and wish you good luck in obtaining your degree also.

 

Dave Barkel

 

[Guest]

Tony,

you are totally wasting your time mate! Honestly, just continue what you are doing with your birds, it is obviously working for you!

 

I've read through your thread Spencer, and I assume this is what you wouldn't pm me all that time ago? As i stated on the thread then, if, you can do what you say you can do, then it is an impressive skill to boast. But to be truthfull, I fail to see much use for it in the game today, as Gangster states, if required you can get them DNA tested. I haven't any eye photos of my birds or I would have put some up out of interest alone, but thats as far as my interest in your theory would have gone. I sincerely do not see any benefit or chances of improving my birds in this, your theory, for me.

 

It is quite clear given the history of your postings, that you do not believe in eyesign, and that I can accept. Stating that eyesign shouldn't be used as a selection tool as it does not work or BECAUSE IT is not 100%, and condemning those that do use/believe in it, I can not.

 

I have stated from day one with you, that I am no eyesign expert. I have, as has my uncle, on many occasions giving factual evidence to you which you discard with disdain. This indicates to me that you think that I am a liar. I do not care whether you believe in it or not, but i believe that you should allow those that want to learn, to do just that.

 

I have for approximately 22 years used eyesign to aid with the development of my birds. If I had followed what you say/preach, then i would have missed out on some of the most exhilarating experiences in my life. I have yet to read anything from you, or the others that continually snipe at my uncle from afar, that can sway me from my practices. My successes, and failures, are my own evidence of proof to me that eyesign works to improve my birds. Your theory will highlight yours. I cannot dispute that eyesign is not 100% positive, but there is nothing in this world that is 100% guaranteed apart from Death, (and maybe taxes, or that you will respond in a negative fashion, again!)

 

To be truthfull, i am stunned that this is what you have been shouting about all of this time. However, as long as you are happy in what you are doing, i wish you good luck with it, and wish you good luck in obtaining your degree also.

 

Dave Barkel

 

Could not edit to correct my english, should of read as per the words included in capitals above.

 

 

 

 

[swilcox]

genetically the basket will decide all, however in my experience of selecting pigeons and i have select quite a few toppers the following list may be a decent guide when selecting unproven pigeons.

 

Balance (if it doesnt have this then dont look for any of the following)

Feather quality (so important, it will tell you more than an eye or throut)

Intellegence/charactor (hard to study without time but can be very important)

Good muscles (Its what they fly with)

eye quality (dont really no what eyesign is)

Good Wing (may help you decide what distance the pigeon may be suitable for)

good vent bones (indication of how sturdy the pigeon is)

good throat (they say every good pigeon has a good throut)

 

If you find one with all that it still may not bring you luck

[Lennut Tar]

genetically the basket will decide all, however in my experience of selecting pigeons and i have select quite a few toppers the following list may be a decent guide when selecting unproven pigeons.

 

Balance (if it doesnt have this then dont look for any of the following)

Feather quality (so important, it will tell you more than an eye or throut)

Intellegence/charactor (hard to study without time but can be very important)

Good muscles (Its what they fly with)

eye quality (dont really no what eyesign is)

Good Wing (may help you decide what distance the pigeon may be suitable for)

good vent bones (indication of how sturdy the pigeon is)

good throat (they say every good pigeon has a good throut)

 

A bit more in tune with reality !!!!!!! I consider Swilcox   ;) , with your good advice & wisdom etc  ;D ;D ;D. A good post ?????? for any novice here. To read & learn from in my view.

Enjoy

 

 

 

[timbarra]

Hi STuart,

I agree with you totally. thats what I am saying .. eyesign should not be used as a selection tool, but your examples of what contributes to a good pigeon does, bloodline is important. all I am saying is eyesign as I know it, will and can only confirm parentage of an individual.

 

cheers spencer

[Guest slugmonkey]

Timbarra I agree with fact that a pigeon should have the total package to be stocked but several times I have had birds that do not handle as well as I have thought they should of and these birds turned out to be some of my best breeders I dont worry about a lot of things that some others do as I have handled some of the best pigeons in the world on a regular basis and I can tell you that most experts dont know squat I had a wing judge tell me that the wing on Pinnacle ( NL 96 1588148 Middle distance 1st national ace)  was not a good wing I think you should look at QUALITY animals and then match the standard to this and not set a standard that you like and try to match to it !!! most people look at wing books or eye books or whatever and try to use that to judge what they are looking at, there is no substitute for handling birds go find the best birds in your area and handle them when you get a hold of a good one you will know it, the best handling bird I ever felt was Super Sajkie ( NL 98 1001021 9x1st against average 7300 birds and 1st Olympiad nominated bird that year) and the second was a Peeman bird I belive he called it Eurostar, Sajkie's kids cant fly across the street but boy do they breed

When you handle birds of this caliber you will begin to notice similiarities in structure as well as demeanor and personality and this is how I pick birds for breeding I am reading these eyesign posts trying to decide if this is another tool I should try to use

I am a huge fan of basket sign ( lol ) I truly belive that the races sort out what you are looking for I try to raise 1 set off of every bird that is left at the end of the season and the ones that did good breed back with a relative as to try the refine the bloodline

[DAVIDL]

Hi STuart,

I agree with you totally. thats what I am saying .. eyesign should not be used as a selection tool, but your examples of what contributes to a good pigeon does, bloodline is important. all I am saying is eyesign as I know it, will and can only confirm parentage of an individual.

 

cheers spencer

  

 

  hi, could you tell me how eyesign can tell you the parentage of an individual please...what is it in the eye that links one bird to another?...thanks.

 

 

[timbarra]

Timbarra I agree with fact that a pigeon should have the total package to be stocked but several times I have had birds that do not handle as well as I have thought they should of and these birds turned out to be some of my best breeders I dont worry about a lot of things that some others do as I have handled some of the best pigeons in the world on a regular basis and I can tell you that most experts dont know squat I had a wing judge tell me that the wing on Pinnacle ( NL 96 1588148 Middle distance 1st national ace)  was not a good wing I think you should look at QUALITY animals and then match the standard to this and not set a standard that you like and try to match to it !!! most people look at wing books or eye books or whatever and try to use that to judge what they are looking at, there is no substitute for handling birds go find the best birds in your area and handle them when you get a hold of a good one you will know it, the best handling bird I ever felt was Super Sajkie ( NL 98 1001021 9x1st against average 7300 birds and 1st Olympiad nominated bird that year) and the second was a Peeman bird I belive he called it Eurostar, Sajkie's kids cant fly across the street but boy do they breed

When you handle birds of this caliber you will begin to notice similiarities in structure as well as demeanor and personality and this is how I pick birds for breeding I am reading these eyesign posts trying to decide if this is another tool I should try to use

I am a huge fan of basket sign ( lol ) I truly belive that the races sort out what you are looking for I try to raise 1 set off of every bird that is left at the end of the season and the ones that did good breed back with a relative as to try the refine the bloodline

 

Hi Slugmonkey,

I think you have summed up every little aspect of what I think myself , i can only agree with you on what you have said, I handle pigeons of certain familys that win and breed to type as the original founders intended.

Eyesign should not be used as a selection tool, but you will get different opinions, eyesign can be used to varify parentage. as this is genetically linked, I shall post my first article on here so you and DAVID L can read it and if further parts be required and your genuinely interested , I would help you anyway that may be of benefit to you. I am after no financial gain like other eyesign men and believe what i have learnt for myself and from other should be made available to all.

 

regards spencer

[timbarra]

Part one

It is with great pleasure that I have been given the opportunity to pen some of my studies in The British Homing world with regards to the so called theory of eyesign.

A subject which I have been involved in since the late 80’s, I have judged eyesign shows and done the so called loft visits, which I will admit gave me the chance and opportunity to study so many top class pigeons.

As most fanciers will know there have been various articles, video’s and books on the subject of eyesign, for which the sport must be grateful as it set us on the road to try to understand just a little more about our feathered athletes, but most still term eyesign as theory and I am extremely uncomfortable with this word, as it means you as fanciers base your judgement on nothing more than an possibility. So is it any surprise that most of the pigeon fanciers around the world refuse to believe in a possibility (theory), that really has so many question marks surrounding it and which is based on half fact and a fanciers preference and results of he’s own birds and others to then justify a selection process, which he can then claim to be knowledgeable because there is a common denominator for 75% of the winners bred, Well what about the other 25% I hear you ask, well that is exactly my point. I doubt that Indiana Jones would be able to make sense of some of the mystery surrounding eyesign with what has been written so why should you?

 

Eyesign is a genetically link trait this is 100% fact this cannot be denied. Eyesign is a relatively easy subject to understand and all can be explained if you stick to facts and a common sense philosophy, Therefore I will keep it as simple and as clear as possible when I give my explanations because it’s not a hard thing to learn or know, and eyesign will probably still remain a mystery to those people who do not care to entertain the factual concept of it, and by those who are afraid to admit that maybe for all these years they were wrong in their theories. The eyesign debate has been made into a catacomb of mystery because the so called enthusiasts make eyesign so confusing, by trying and make it sound so technical that fanciers can’t be bothered to try and understand it, unless someone puts pen to paper and tells it how it really is and actually opens fanciers eyes (no pun intended) then it will remain a subject of controversy for decades to come. So this is what I will try and do using facts as proof and common sense as a guide.

 

At this point you can either chose to read on and open your mind to satisfy your knowledge and curiosity, or just think you know everything you need to know and not read any further.

 

So how many…. let’s call them eyesign enthusiasts have said this pigeon or that pigeon will race well or breed winners and it has not, there are to many other contributory factors to also take into account when racing like nutritional needs and feather quality, also the health of a pigeon must be good and optimal condition is a must, also healthy lungs, liver, kidney’s, heart, muscle tissue and so on. Remembering good loft management is also essential. How many pigeons with fantastic eyesign have got lost? Baring those that fall foul to accidents and being under conditioned to do the job that is. How many eyesign enthusiasts have said that one eye is better than another just because it is a different colour? So I ask you is a red Ferrari faster than a yellow one of the same model? The answer to that is no, and in relation to our pigeons eyes the fact remains that one colour should be no superior than any other colour, as eye colour is a hereditary factor not a measuring factor.

As for eye colour statements such as certain eyes are dominant and others recessive are very much true, but those who cannot determine which is recessive and which are dominant correctly is surprising.

I hope to make it clear to fanciers by using facts and common sense as a guide that  eyesign exists and is not just a theory that has been created over a period of time just so some fanciers can try and determine a pigeons potential by looking in the eye.

Eyesign should not even be attempted to be used for this purpose.

 

I believe eyesign to be a true fact of life, as a pigeon is a combination of inherited genetic material which is predetermined by the genetics of the individual’s parents, and the eye is a small but valuable part of this. This would then exclude eyesign being a theory as it would then be based on genetic fact.

The eye is just one part of any living person, bird, mammal, and reptile and is unique to that individual. So you could say it’s like a genetic fingerprint of identity. So do our pigeons have a genetic fingerprint within the eye? I hear you ask. My answer to you the fancier would be yes, and there in five words genetic fingerprint within the eye proves that eyesign is fact and not a theory.

The conclusion is then that eyesign is a genetic fingerprint of an individual pigeon, and once this is recognised the following questions appear, how can it be used and what can it be used for? What can this bring to you the fancier and to the world of pigeon racing?

 

Well once you have accepted that eyesign is a fingerprint of identity and is a genetically inherited part of the pigeon, you can use eyesign to guarantee hereditary genetic confirmation of a certain bred individual and nothing more, it’s that simple, and then you will begin to understand eyesign. In short it can be used to confirm that a certain pigeon is of certain parentage, also weather a pigeon is from a highly inbred colony of birds and has a pure bloodline, by pure I mean inbred or line bred for a number of generations.

Regarding the colour of pigeon’s eyes all the basic genetic information you need to know at this time is that colours come in two groups, dominant (yellow) and recessive (white). This is a genetic fact.

Dominant (Yellow), which is a main banner for eyes referred to as old gold, yellow, green, red, orange and orange based colours.

Recessive (White), which is a main banner for eyes referred to as violet, purple, wine, blue, grey and pearl eyes.

But you will need never to refer to them other than dominant (yellow) and recessive (white). When mating these colours you must know that white eyed pigeons when paired together will only breed white eyed pigeons. And yellow eyed pigeons will only bred white eyed pigeons if both birds carry the recessive gene for white.

 

(To be continued) Email:  spencer@timbarra.co.uk  Web Page: http://www.timbarra.co.uk