the theorieist

[westy]

;D ;D ;D HES ONLY JOKNG WESTY ;D ;D ;DJUST GET A GOOD JOKE ANSWER BACK ;D ;D GOOD LUCK TO BOTH OF YOU  [ESPECIALLY WESTY ;D ;D ;D]

DONT TAKE IT TO HEART WE,LL SORT HIM OUT ;D ;D ;D JUST WAIT TILL THE YB RACING STARTS  ;D ;D ;D CHEERS TED , I KNOW YOUR ONLY JOKING, BETTERTHAT WAY THAN THE OTHER ;D ;D ;D

 

yes jimmy it is better that way

[jimmy white]

;D ;D ;D just wait till you show him your first race certificate ;D ;D ;D

[westy]

;D ;D ;D just wait till you show him your first race certificate ;D ;D ;D

 

hopefully it will br the first race ;D ;D

 

[jimmy white]

;D ;D ;D tell ted his ybs are ready,westy,,,,,,but i cant get them on a sunday ;D ;D ;D its to busy  ;D ;D ;D

[jimmy white]

back to the first post on the theorieist,, how some people think    a certain fancier a few years ago ,experienced a lot of years,wanted to try widohood, sent to a top racer man for 12 ybs, after getting his loft built with widowhood boxes, placed the 12 ybs on the floor, and when they flew up to the boxes came out with a fantastic saying,,,,",these birds are natural widowhooders, see how they flew up to the boxes"

[no where else for them to fly to] ;D true   goes back to the frog way of thinking at the beginning????? :-/ :-/ :-/

also ,another, with filthy dirty loft full of canker,every year" that mans birds bring canker in to your loft,,,," the "man" has been at the top for 30 years  ,another for the theorieist,and the frog,,,,again true :-/ :-/ :-/

[jimmy white]

;D ;D ;D do pigeons smell???    ;D ;D ;D

[Tony C]

When a hen comes of her nest and deposits a big stinky dropping who's to say it doesn't smell like nectar to pigeons???

[jimmy white]

;D ;D ;D ;D  very true   ;D

[jimmy white]

as far as pigeons smelling , i think they do as you can smell an unhealthy bird,loft etc   and the same goes for a healthy pigeon, loft etc,

but as far as a pigeons sense of smell [allthough differance to ours] actually plays a role in their homing instinct,, any thoughts?/

[Roland]

That was a theory back about 15 years ago ... That they could smell different regions and then location. Not a favourite of mine though. Likewise the 'Elastic - band like theory ... where it will always pulled them back  to where  they werre born / or adjusted to new home.

Can't really get me head around that one either.

[Roland]

http://jeb.biologists.org/cgi/content/full/208/22/4189

 

further  http://jeb.biologists.org/cgi/reprint/208/22/4189.pdf#search=%22Pigeon%20Navigation%20Tests%22

 

I quite liked reading this one http://www.robots.ox.ac.uk/~sjrob/Pubs/edgeJTB.pdf#search=%22Pigeon%20Navigation%20Tests%22

 

http://www.springerlink.com/content/p2m33m5p55366203/

then the further update

http://www.springerlink.com/content/l2166714014v313r/

This should be added to a couple of others really I suppose.

http://cogprints.org/2919/

 

Then put this on size 151 and I thought good

http://elibrary.unm.edu/sora/Auk/v104n03/p0369-p0379.pdf#search=%22Pigeon%20Navigation%20Tests%22

[jimmy white]

hi roland quite interested to see these websites but dont seem to be able to get them for some reason, but ill keep trying, should imagine they would be quite interesting,

[Roland]

Aye Jimmy .. Copy and paste them into Google or another search engine.... should work them

[Roland]

 

A smell one

 

Hans G. Wallraff1 and Michael F. Neumann1

 

(1)  Max-Planck-Institut für Verhaltensphysiologie, D-8130 Seewiesen Post Starnberg, Federal Republic of Germany

 

Received: 16 February 1989  Accepted: 21 May 1989  

 

Summary  By means of training flights (mostly flock releases), two groups of young homing pigeons were made familar with a larger area asymmetrically extending from the loft toward SW and NE, respectively. Thereafter, birds of both groups were released within each of the training areas with which one sort of birds was familiar (F+), the other unfamiliar (F-). Even the F+ pigeons had never been released at the test site itself (nearest previous release 10 km apart). Half of each group was allowed to smell environmental odors (O+); the other half breathed charcoal-filtered air during transportation and at the release site until a few minutes before release when they were deprived of olfaction by intranasal application of Xylocain (O-). The two test sites were 53 km distant from home. There was little difference in initial orientation as well as in homing performance between pigeons that were allowed to smell natural air and were familiar with the area (F+O+) and those that were privileged in only one respect (F+O- and F-O+). Yet if none of the preconditions was met (F-O-), performances were drastically reduced. The findings show that pigeons make use of two independent homing methods, olfactory navigation (presumably based on a navigational map) and non-olfactory pilotage (presumably based on a topographical map). The latter method is restricted to a more or less familiar area determined by individual experience. Its boundaries are poorly defined and can be estimated by the experimenter only in rough approximation. Within this area, the homing system takes advantage of more or less redundant inputs. Outside of it, olfactory information seems indispensable.

[Roland]

Birds of a feather `flock together'  

 

 

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Oxford zoologists have discovered some interesting facts about homing pigeons which may ruffle a few feathers in the fiercely competitive racing fraternity. It seems that far from competing to get home first, pigeons flock together to pool their navigational knowledge and ward off predators.

Dr Tim Guilford and postgraduate student Ms Teresa Burt, both based at the Department of Zoology, have carried out research to determine how pigeons find their bearings when released.

 

Using transparent and opaque pigeon carriers, they demonstrated that birds with the most visual awareness of their whereabouts before release flew home faster. Pigeons kept in opaque boxes circled around for 20 or 30 seconds before setting off. They also discovered that pigeons helped each other to find the way home. When the birds were released in pairs, one from a transparent box and the other from an opaque box, they circled the area before flying off together. The confused pigeon flew after the one that seemed to know where it was going, while the other bird slowed down to let it catch up.

 

Dr Guilford said: `How one bird can sense that the other knows the way back is a mystery. Why the clued-up pigeon should wait for the other is also unclear, but I doubt it is for altruistic reasons.' He believes that pigeons prefer to travel in pairs or flocks to pool their knowledge about the route and to protect themselves from predators such as falcons. Previous research suggests that pigeons navigate using an in-built magnetic and solar compass and clues from familiar scents on the wind, switching to orientation by familiar landmarks in the final stretch.

 

These new observations may help to explain another characteristic of pigeons—that they will do almost anything to stay in a flock

 

 

[jimmy white]

hi roland while i respect your interesting post, my own thoughts would have been that these tests should have been done along with experienced pigeon fanciers, nothing really new in this ,racing,pigeons are gregarious and allways have been gregarious, being closely related to the rock dove.  if you take pigeons in an open basket and leave them for 10 mins these birds will often head straight home, but if you took one in ,say a cardboard box , lifted out and let it go 9 times out of 10 it would land on the nearest roof ,until it got its bearings then would head for home,  i beleive the younger the pigeon the more gregarious it is i.e/if you take a basket of young birds on their first or second training stint, put an old bird in among them, the chances are that the old bird would in fact not stick with the batch and would home on its own, while i agree with most of the post iis the fact that these learned people do these experiments without the aid of experienced fanciers, that could really be , a big help to them ,,just veering off the subject for a moment when the pigeons went by train [b4 dr beeching]the baskets were laid out on the platform at the race point,each one set back from the other, where they could all see out [and get plenty fresh air]there were far less losses then than there is now, when their in a transporter ,[ some of them a bit make shift ] these birds dont have the pleasure and chance of this , they have not much chance of all seeing out , apart maybe from a few bars at the front of the crate or basket, and no matter how good [or bad] the air conditioning is , they still will have to breath in foul air i/e/,5000 in a transporter, thats where the point in your post is so true [ the opaque carrier] against the card board box i mentioned earlier [in an exagerated way , but still true], anyway roland most interesting topics with plenty to discuss, and thanks for printing these out ,, iwill get all them as you said, and will be interested to have a good look, these are just my own thoughts and have just printed this quickly so i hope i havent said anything out of place, cheers for now roland ,j,w,

[Roland]

Yes remember well that Pierre Dordin did much research. If a glass top is used on a Basket and left for 10 minutes they of course head straight of with hardly a half term. I always felt that this wasdue to them doing what ever it is they do and need, as they can see the light etc. Whereas they normally are out, and then they have to fly... can't see them feasiblely walking out and studying the sky for 10 minutes... but that, or whatever they study is no doubt what they do... Like as high as you can to leberate the birds! One would think that they would zoom straight ahead... But no, if let of the top of a multi Story Carpark for instance... Block of flats, they drop like the clappers and nigh hit the ground.

I'm not sure about this 'Rock Dove' or where it came from... never ever read about where it was supposed to have or when.

The flyer from Tammworth way, who was a Boxing trainer, for he's son was quite good, used to tell me that he kept re - introducing them... so that all his birds were 1/8 Rock Dove.... Believe his brother was Elvis lol.

[Roland]

Sorry I posted this onother topic...

It is the same as when birds let out 10 minutes and 10 miles apart, funny how they come together ... But when the Hens are let up 10 minutes before and then the Cocks birds 10 miles behind, and the Cock birds beat the hens home and Don't bother to wait for the Hens...  they are race fit... and when the hens catch up, and over take the cock birds, they are sent and cocks rested... hence the first 2/3rds of the season is accounted for...

[jimmy white]

i think roland that the sun has a lot to do with it  ,i think when they are left for so long and see the sun , it makes  big differance on them clearing

[jimmy white]

going back to the first post ,," the frog" it is strange what fanciers will think ,,,on a panel years ago ,or rather after the quiz,, a fancier came up to me quite gennuinly said [half jugged ;D]  i know your secret jimmy , but i wont tell anyone,, i asked what on earth it was , and touching his nose on the side with one finger, he whispered ,",you put water in your minerals "when i asked who on earth told you that,, then it came out , one of my clubmates told him,,,,i had simply left the black minerals out while cleaning the loft, and it rained during the night,,, that clubmate gennuinly thought that was the secret ;D ;D ;D true

[Guest]

very easy to suck in pigeon men jimmy always kept a bottle of clear water in the loft and whenever anyone came round i would tip some into the drinker stories got round i was using all sorts ,could not but help laugh at it ,

[jimmy white]

;D ;D ;D brilliant sammy  ;D ;D ;D  the best of it is if you had won the race that sat , you could have sold that water ten times over ;D ;D ;D  it is strange though if a fancier pays a lot for a bottle of this or a bottle of that or anything that the label looks good,, they  do better , as phsycologicly [spelt wrong ,to big a word from me  ;D]  they beleive in this product , look after their birds better do everything better ,,,,,,,,but swear blind that , that bottle done it ;D ;D ;D,,,,,,p.s send me a bottle of your water sammy ;D ;D ;D

[Roland]

Remember well a fancier spouting 'tell them Thisles boy, plenty of thistles and soon they will all be using them ... Well funnily enough every part of a thistle is eatable and has great propeties, so I don't tell them that lol.

[Guest]

wouldnt like to go to the toilet after eating a load of them thistles would you

[jimmy white]

;D ;D ;D thats whats known as a jaggypea ;D ;D ;D  its right about the thistles though same as nettles ,,nettle tea,,,,but to be handled with care ;D ;D ;D