Jack Barkel Posted February 29, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 29, 2008 Hello Spencer, I have shown here in the last couple of weeks the build up of a clear eye, I also showed a made up composite on the same eye. Please refer back to my previous pictures of the build up of the eye to answer that question. One may breed a winner from putting two pearls together, but continuous practice of this will bring deterioration to pigeons producing mostly birds with little homing ability and heavy losses. I have travelled to many top lofts in the world and can honestly say I have never found one without their share of yellow eyes in the stock loft. Therefore I can safely say I do not know of any top lofts that would engage in such a practice, but I myself strongly advise against it. To know how the modern day racing pigeon originated and to understand basic genetics, is to understand where our pigeon breeding is drifting to when we indulge in such practices. We may for a time increase speed and vitality, by pairing pearl to pearl, but stamina and homing ability will eventually be forfeited. This is one of the reasons why some lofts have to continually introduce an outcross. To line breed correctly one can keep the same family for twenty years or more without any outside introductions. This is part of my theory and many other top breeders in the world, which I have proved to many and I will certainly stick to it. No one needs to follow what I advise, but be warned of what I know to be the eventual consequences of such practices. Regards jackbarkel@mweb.co.za http://mysite.mweb.co.za/residents/jackbarkel/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest anthony Posted March 1, 2008 Report Share Posted March 1, 2008 Hello Jack When you have a good cock with bull eyes,which are the best eyes to mate,pearl or yellow? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Barkel Posted March 1, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 1, 2008 Hello Jack When you have a good cock with bull eyes,which are the best eyes to mate,pearl or yellow? Hello Anthony, Because we have no idea what is the base colour of the bull eyed cock, it would be good practice always to pair it to a yellow eyed hen. This way we know for definite we are not putting two pearl eyes together. Regards Jack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest slugmonkey Posted March 2, 2008 Report Share Posted March 2, 2008 Breeding a pearl to a pearl = pearl, just because you get pearls from a bull eye breeding breeding dosent mean the base color is pearl you might breed 50 pigeons before the yellow bull throws a yellow so in reality you may be breeding what you think is a yellow when it actually is a pearl so you breed bull to yellow !! I have been told since I started to not breed pearl to pearl although the guys that have told me this didn't know the real reason why I try not to breed pearl to pearl and have only done it to breed inbred breeders If a bird was bred bull from 2 pearls then the base color would be pearl so you would want to breed this to a yellow so I guess no matter how you shake it breed bull to yellow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pj1001 Posted March 2, 2008 Report Share Posted March 2, 2008 Hello Jack and all. I hope you are well Jack and all the family are in good health in South Africa. Sorry I haven't been online for a while due to a car accident, but I have been reading your interesting and informative posts when I can on this thread. If you don't mind may I ask a couple of questions please? 1. Jack when grading birds using the eye what characteristics of the eye do you look at when estimating the distance that a bird could possibly fly. Can this be done solely by looking at the eye or would you also need to handle the pigeon in question and access its wing, balance length of keel bone etc also? 2. When you are grading birds Jack what characteristics would you look for in an eye to regard a pigeon of being a good racer, be it sprint, middle distance or long distance? Is this based on the width and % composite of the eye or are there other characteristics that need to be examined. I hope these questions may be of use to others also. Many thanks again Jack. Regards PJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest j.bamling Posted March 2, 2008 Report Share Posted March 2, 2008 Hi Jack I have sent you a PM What are your thoughts on Stock Hens with Opposite eyes ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Barkel Posted March 2, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 2, 2008 Hello PJ, 1. The narrower the correlation the further the pigeon will fly, so as the correlation gets wider the birds capabilities tend to reduce in distances flown. However I prefer no step in the wing and the humerus bone no more than 1/4 inch from the body. This shows positive signs for a good all round racer. 2. Although not always accurate in assessing a good racer, it is usual for a good racer to show a lot of composite on the adaptation. As the distances get longer it is not as necessary as the short to middle distance. I hope you have no after effects from your car accident PJ. Kindest Regards jackbarkel@mweb.co.za http://mysite.mweb.co.za/residents/jackbarkel/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Barkel Posted March 2, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 2, 2008 Hi Jack I have sent you a PM What are your thoughts on Stock Hens with Opposite eyes ? A hen with opposite eyes will still have a base colour either pearl or yellow but not both. I would like to see a photo of the two eyes before making any further comment. I would grade the bird on both eyes and not on one of them. However a hen does not transfer its sex genes to its daughters, therefore if it is the cocks that are doing well it comes from the Sire and Dam. If it is the hens that are doing well, you can give the cock most credit for that. Regards Jack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 2, 2008 Report Share Posted March 2, 2008 Having been actively involved with racing pigeons since 1983, i have for at least the last twenty years used eyesign to aid me with my birds, mainly for breeding purposes. I do not profess to know it all, in fact, quite the opposite. For my own benefit and satisfaction, despite protests fom my father, I experimented with pairing White eyes to White Eyes, (Pearl to Pearl), with minor success. Please note, the birds used were proven breeders. I gained minor prizes aswell as a questionable victory, but nothing else of worthy note. I did the same with their children, and results deteriorated. Having had the sense not to fill the loft with experimental pairings like this, fortunately this had no consequence on the loft performances. So, from my own experiences I DO NOT, put the White to White anymore, FACT!. Whilst i do not dispute others may very well do this with success, for me this was a no-no! Anthony, the choice is yours to make, try both ways and see what comes off the best for you. I'll wager you get better pigeons clashing the eye colours than you do pairing White to White. But please, try it, and LET US ALL KNOW YOUR FINDINGS if you would please. Jack Barkel is my uncle, a very dear family relative to me, and this situation has arisen before. Having dealt with Spencer and his noted attitude several times, I think it is now time for Spencer to put up a thread regarding his knowledge of his eyesign theory, and let everyone else pull him to pieces and snipe from a distance in the sameway he does! i look forward to your very own new eyesign thread Spencer, i look forward to it very much! ;D Come on Spencer, show us / tell us, what you know! Dave Barkel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest j.bamling Posted March 2, 2008 Report Share Posted March 2, 2008 A hen with opposite eyes will still have a base colour either pearl or yellow but not both. I would like to see a photo of the two eyes before making any further comment. I would grade the bird on both eyes and not on one of them. However a hen does not transfer its sex genes to its daughters, therefore if it is the cocks that are doing well it comes from the Sire and Dam. If it is the hens that are doing well, you can give the cock most credit for that. Regards Its just the cocks what are doing well the hens dont seem to race but i have never bred off the hens so as breeders i dont know ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pj1001 Posted March 2, 2008 Report Share Posted March 2, 2008 Many thanks Jack for answering my 2 questions posted. I am a little sore yet but will be fine in a couple more weeks. Thanks for asking Regards PJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest anthony Posted March 3, 2008 Report Share Posted March 3, 2008 Having been actively involved with racing pigeons since 1983, i have for at least the last twenty years used eyesign to aid me with my birds, mainly for breeding purposes. I do not profess to know it all, in fact, quite the opposite. For my own benefit and satisfaction, despite protests fom my father, I experimented with pairing White eyes to White Eyes, (Pearl to Pearl), with minor success. Please note, the birds used were proven breeders. I gained minor prizes aswell as a questionable victory, but nothing else of worthy note. I did the same with their children, and results deteriorated. Having had the sense not to fill the loft with experimental pairings like this, fortunately this had no consequence on the loft performances. So, from my own experiences I DO NOT, put the White to White anymore, FACT!. Whilst i do not dispute others may very well do this with success, for me this was a no-no! Anthony, the choice is yours to make, try both ways and see what comes off the best for you. I'll wager you get better pigeons clashing the eye colours than you do pairing White to White. But please, try it, and LET US ALL KNOW YOUR FINDINGS if you would please. Jack Barkel is my uncle, a very dear family relative to me, and this situation has arisen before. Having dealt with Spencer and his noted attitude several times, I think it is now time for Spencer to put up a thread regarding his knowledge of his eyesign theory, and let everyone else pull him to pieces and snipe from a distance in the sameway he does! i look forward to your very own new eyesign thread Spencer, i look forward to it very much! ;D Come on Spencer, show us / tell us, what you know! Dave Barkel Hello Dave to tell you the truth in the past I have already mated two pearl eyes togheter and I learned my lesson.I must say that I have been interested in eyes for a long time,but I never understood exactly what I was suppose to look for.Thanks to Mr Jack Barkel and his determination to teach what he knows,I am more knowlegable now than before ,watching his DVD.I proudly declare that I am one of his followers,and by saying this I mean that for me thier is someone who can answer my questions on this subject Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Posted March 3, 2008 Report Share Posted March 3, 2008 Hello Jack Looking for the two day racers,extreme distance eyes is it fair to say,most of these will be found in yellow based eye.,with thin correlation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Barkel Posted March 3, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 3, 2008 Hello Jack Looking for the two day racers,extreme distance eyes is it fair to say,most of these will be found in yellow based eye.,with thin correlation. Hello Merlin, You have got it exactly right, and if you pair two yellow eyed pigeons with narrow correlation you will increase your chances in a two day race much more. Increased stamina and increased homing ability will be the expected results. Regards Jack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Barkel Posted March 3, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 3, 2008 Hello Spencer, The pearl eye brings in extra speed and vitality. Where two yellow eyes are paired together we lose a certain percentage of speed and vitality. Where two pearl eyes are paired together, we lose a percentage of stamina and homing ability. The yellow eye is an inheritance of the homing pigeon, Dragoon-English Carrier etc. The pearl eye is the inheritance of the fancy breeds that was introduced to make the homer more lighter and give added vitality. Smerle - Cumulet etc. Regards Jack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Posted March 3, 2008 Report Share Posted March 3, 2008 Jack Third eyelid ie covering sheath,what capabilities does it have,besides keeping eye ball clean/lubricated,reasons for asking being,when examining eyes in this instance other fanciers birds,have noticed the third eye lid can have different shaded hues,from clear to a milky/creamy white.could this be inner health related. Thank You. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Barkel Posted March 3, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 3, 2008 Jack Third eyelid ie covering sheath,what capabilities does it have,besides keeping eye ball clean/lubricated,reasons for asking being,when examining eyes in this instance other fanciers birds,have noticed the third eye lid can have different shaded hues,from clear to a milky/creamy white.could this be inner health related. Thank You. Hello Merlin. I do not know much about the third eye lid, I agree with you, it could be health related. Regards Jack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Barkel Posted March 3, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 3, 2008 Pairings to avoid. We should by now have realised that we need to pair birds with a similar uniform set of sphincter muscles. When one makes injudicious pairings the progeny of such bad joining, either show a widening of the iris and a decrease in the correlation or fifth circle until both these circles are completely overlapped by this iris. I have often likened this type of eye to a water bucket full to the brim, which any attempt to put in more water will prove futile, for once it is full it is full, and any attempt to try and rectify this mistake has proven erratic, unreliable and unsatisfactory. We then move on to the eye that has a very weak iris, this eye shows real signs of deterioration, the correlation breaks through the thin iris and joins up with the fifth circle. This pigeon type of eye may only have one thing going for it and that is speed. It will lack stamina and homing ability and if let loose in the stock loft can reduce your future family to a lot of junk. This eye is exactly the opposite to Illustration 20, for although eyes that are full have been known to be good long distance races the eye with the weak iris has shown very little claim to fame other than at short fast blow home races. I have referred to this eye as the bucket with a hole in it, for no matter how much you try to put in, it will not hold water. One must never consider trying to rectify these problems by pairing a bird with a too full eye, with an eye that is too thin or weak in the iris. It has the same effect as putting a small and large bird together. It does not breed medium birds, but large and small taking after one or the other of the parents. Likewise with the eye it will not compensate for the problem, but will breed mostly thick or thin irises from the genes of one of the parents. Very seldom will the genes of both parents combine to give us a happy medium, to restore future progeny to a well balanced eye. This is another fallacy I wish to expose and which is practiced by many eye-sign enthusiasts. jackbarkel@mweb.co.za http://mysite.mweb.co.za/residents/jackbarkel/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAVIDL Posted March 3, 2008 Report Share Posted March 3, 2008 i have recently bought 3 pairs of stock birds of the same strain, 5 of them all seem to have very similar eyes...yellow,the other bird has a pearl/possible violet (looks something like that...im no expert)...as i want to keep the strain pure where will these eyes take me as i have to breed with what i have...what will yellow to yellow give me?will the pairings weaken the racing ability? i would prefer to breed opposites together but cant with what ive got... iris on all eyes are not too overpowering but look fairly strong and 3rd circle is clearly visible...dont know if ive explained this very well . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webmaster Posted March 3, 2008 Report Share Posted March 3, 2008 Just to note I have removed posts digressing from the subject in hand, and others. This topic is as Jack has laid out for him to put up his writings and questions may be asked where confusion may arise, or where clarity is sought. If anyone wishes to put up a similar series of articles where differences in opinion arise, please contact me and a similar scenario may be setup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pj1001 Posted March 3, 2008 Report Share Posted March 3, 2008 Hello Jack and all. Just to clarify the answer to Merlin's question concerning the eyes of extreme distance pigeons. Will the eyes with the narrow correlation indicated in your answer; have larger adaption circles or a larger iris, resulting in the correlation being narrow in nature? I woould assume a larger adaption circle but I may be wrong. Could you clarify this please? Many thanks Jack. Regards PJ Original Question and answer Hello Jack Looking for the two day racers,extreme distance eyes is it fair to say,most of these will be found in yellow based eye.,with thin correlation. Hello Merlin, You have got it exactly right, and if you pair two yellow eyed pigeons with narrow correlation you will increase your chances in a two day race much more. Increased stamina and increased homing ability will be the expected results. Regards Jack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Barkel Posted March 4, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 4, 2008 i have recently bought 3 pairs of stock birds of the same strain, 5 of them all seem to have very similar eyes...yellow,the other bird has a pearl/possible violet (looks something like that...im no expert)...as i want to keep the strain pure where will these eyes take me as i have to breed with what i have...what will yellow to yellow give me?will the pairings weaken the racing ability? i would prefer to breed opposites together but cant with what ive got... iris on all eyes are not too overpowering but look fairly strong and 3rd circle is clearly visible...dont know if ive explained this very well . Hello David, You have beaten me to it, this is a subject that I must address in full in future articles. However to keep your pairs pure as they are now, you can pair the pearl eyed pigeon to the the yellow of your choice. All progeny with pearl eyes from such a pairing can be paired to the other three yellows. This is the way to go if you do not wish to introduce any new hens with pearl eyes. Regards Jack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Barkel Posted March 4, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 4, 2008 Hello Jack and all. Just to clarify the answer to Merlin's question concerning the eyes of extreme distance pigeons. Will the eyes with the narrow correlation indicated in your answer; have larger adaption circles or a larger iris, resulting in the correlation being narrow in nature? I woould assume a larger adaption circle but I may be wrong. Could you clarify this please? Many thanks Jack. Regards PJ Hello PJ, Birds with a narrow correlation will have a broader iris, the adaptation very rarely goes larger, but it can happen in rare occasions. Adaptation should be kept in thickness as near to the fifth circle as possible. Regards Jack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlsberg Posted March 4, 2008 Report Share Posted March 4, 2008 what do eyesign judges select by and would you pair birds on their recommendations Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pj1001 Posted March 4, 2008 Report Share Posted March 4, 2008 Many thanks for clarification Jack Regards PJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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