Losses?

[Guest chrisss]

i think from what i have seen, birds today are faster and with modern methods fitter but at what cost?

[me]

 

And a fancier that doesnt have a cupboard that looks like a storeroom for boots the chemist  ;D

 

You have just described "me" Rose I am not frightened of antibees and I know when to administer them commonsense I would say!

 

 

[Merlin]

Approx four years ago,I was informed in the greates confidence,this Para innoculation with the course of Baytril previous ,was needed,most fanciers birds were suffering from it,with the fanciers unaware of it,and when cleared,birds race out of their skin,and so it became the latest hush hush secret,with only the Chemists the real winner.Funny enough the confidant who used it then,doesnt now.

[Guest IB]

 

 

I actually discussed pigeon problems  with Leon and he advised "me" to remember that "malucidin" (spelling") was a great way of sterilising the blood and helps attacks from cocci and e-coli got a few letters from him I will try and find them! The important thing to remember is we should all be trying to keep "our birds healthy"

 

Yes, the danger is in picking thro then & now. Saw the same thing in recent reading of his book, it became a banned substance, it causes abortion in various animals.

 

If I remember correctly, he said that it isn't Cocci that kills, its the bacteria that it allows into the bloodstream thro the damaged gut wall that causes blood poisoning, it is this bacterial infection which kills, and he successfully treated that bacterial infection using this drug, then new.

 

Just a reminder again that this is a role 'good' bacteria play, they don't allow pathogenic bacteria near the gut wall both by sheer numbers (competitive exclusion) and by producing 'natural' toxins which kill them, or inhibit their growth. Use antibiotics, and you remove this part of the immune system. And they have a riole to play in digestion too. Waste of time feeding the birds anything if they are absent.

[jimmy white]

just a quick question bit off the point i know but would the birds of years ago have a hope of keeping into the birds of today i dont think so even if the methods of today was used on them

 

do you mean" keeping up with the birds of today" if so i would say velocities have never really changed dramaticly, through the years , but if the races were very hard ,,,,the returns were far better

[me]

 

Yes, the danger is in picking thro then & now. Saw the same thing in recent reading of his book, it became a banned substance, it causes abortion in various animals.

 

If I remember correctly, he said that it isn't Cocci that kills, its the bacteria that it allows into the bloodstream thro the damaged gut wall that causes blood poisoning, it is this bacterial infection which kills, and he successfully treated that bacterial infection using this drug, then new.

 

Just a reminder again that this is a role 'good' bacteria play, they don't allow pathogenic bacteria near the gut wall both by sheer numbers (competitive exclusion) and by producing 'natural' toxins which kill them, or inhibit their growth. Use antibiotics, and you remove this part of the immune system. And they have a riole to play in digestion too. Waste of time feeding the birds anything if they are absent.

 

 

Furr goodness  sake Ian will you listen? I know what I am talking about! Once the "Bad Bacteria" leave the gut the good bacteria in the gut do nothing helpful as in they are still in the gut!! Simple Eh? Is your birds immnune system killing all local diseases probaly not!  Do they sometimes need a helping hand well Leon said they did!

 

All the best to LEONS memory he loved the doos!

 

[Merlin]

M e  I have raced North from Thurso,to France in the South,its no big deal,if you have got the birds,and naturally like most fanciers I tend to think quite a lot of my birds,and its for this reason I will not put Antbios into them,unless they need it,which thankfully they havent for a good number of years now,and any one who does it "blindly" is basically responsible for the new illnesses yet to come.

[Merlin]

 

 

 

Well oddly enough now Me,I was giving it some thought as to what Bigda posted,being open minded etc,and quite a lot can be learned from just watching the wing action of our doos,something to ponder on.

[me]

M e  I have raced North from Thurso,to France in the South,its no big deal,if you have got the birds,and naturally like most fanciers I tend to think quite a lot of my birds,and its for this reason I will not put Antbios into them,unless they need it,which thankfully they havent for a good number of years now,and any one who does it "blindly" is basically responsible for the new illnesses yet to come.

 

I am sure you have but you are still wasting "MONEY"  bottom line is I am a relatively smart Bagstart and you are not that bright  really. Only kidding!!!!!!!!!!!!!! i JUST LIKE PIGEONS

 

[Guest IB]

 

 

Furr goodness sake Ian will you listen? I know what I am talking about! Once the "Bad Bacteria" leave the gut the good bacteria in the gut do nothing helpful as in they are still in the gut!! Simple Eh? Is your birds immnune system killing all local diseases probaly not!  Do they sometimes need a helping hand well Leon said they did!

 

All the best to LEONS memory he loved the doos!

 

Think we both may have a problem in the listening thing.    

 

After an antibiotic course, every bacterial community left in the gut - good and bad bacteria - are at a much reduced level. It is now the most dangerous time for the bird, because (1) any bad bacteria left are immune to the drug just administered, and (2) in the absence of normal levels of good bacteria, may start to proliferate, invade the gut wall and cause new, more dangerous infection becuase the bugs have acquired resistance to the whole class of drug just used. The bird is already in a weakened state, its already failed to fight off a previous 'weaker' infection, and will probably succumb. Thats why a probiotic is given, to restore the 'good' to high levels.

 

The modern way of fighting infection is to stop it before it starts - through high levels of hygiene and looking after the pigeons so that they are able to look after themselves.

 

If my birds were not killing all local diseases, they would be ill. They aren't so something must be keeping diseases at bay, and that 'something' certainly isn't medication.  

 

And yes, will (and have) treat for infection. At the beginning of this year a pooled loft droppings test revealed worms for the first time ('some hairworm about'). I treated for that (harka-verm). In the light of that finding, and that there was recorded resistance to active ingredient (Levamisole) looked for herbal womers which I now give weekly as a tea, and I also upped my hygiene.

 

[Merlin]

No offense taken Me,your possibily a good guy,but again I have an open mind on that. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Good Night

I have unpollouted youngsters to train early in the morning. :) :) :)

[jimmy white]

i think if birds have had paratypoid [salmonella] their left with some form of disability , be it a drooping wing , a twisted neck, etc etc  [or in fact got it ]   same as the yb,s,,,, old birds that carry this usualy have" dead in the shell" a  formed y,b, in the egg, but dead b4 hatching , this disease can be very varied allmost looking like paramyxo [loss of balance ,twisted head etc] but whatever we say about it ,,it still is one of the worst and hardest to get rid of disease in pigeons

[Guest chrisss]

After an antibiotic course, every bacterial community left in the gut - good and bad bacteria - are at a much reduced level. It is now the most dangerous time for the bird, because (1) any bad bacteria left are immune to the drug just administered, and (2) in the absence of normal levels of good bacteria, may start to proliferate, invade the gut wall and cause new, more dangerous infection becuase the bugs have acquired resistance to the whole class of drug just used. The bird is already in a weakened state, its already failed to fight off a previous 'weaker' infection, and will probably succumb. Thats why a probiotic is given, to restore the 'good' to high levels.

 

Something i bought up earlier you treat and cure but the birds immune system through the treatment is at a much reduced level so you really need to look at how long it is before the bird will build up its immune system and be safe to put in with other birds otherwise  they are going to be very susceptible to picking up anything going especially if you start racing them again

 

the best post on the subject by a country mile read and learn folks

[Simeon Turner]

 

the best post on the subject by a country mile read and learn folks

 

I'll Go with that.

[hepste]

If we carry on treating for everything in the short term, we store up problems in the long term. Government health advise is to reduce the use of antibiotics - in animals and humans!  Let the immune system do its' own thing, and we'll end up with fewer problems and healthier pigeons.  It might be at the cost of winning in the short term, but winning isn't the only thing that matters.

[Guest bigda]

 

 

I actually discussed pigeon problems  with Leon and he advised "me" to remember that "malucidin" (spelling") was a great way of sterilising the blood and helps attacks from cocci and e-coli got a few letters from him I will try and find them! The important thing to remember is we should all be trying to keep "our birds healthy"

 

you have been told by me, i" me "the symptoms to look out for  with the birds that are carriers  and that  have paratyphoid and still you don't learn its obvious you have to talk  with Leon

but he must be about round the bend  trying to tell you any thing

as you are a very trying case, nut springs to mind  the symptoms  i am describing  are that, if you want to discuss it  feel free your crap about bacteria  this and that, dose not stop a pigeon with  paratyphoid  from flying so take it from "me" not you :-/ :-/ :-/ ;D

[Guest Vic]

HOW CAN WE EVER STOP PIGEONS WITH PARATYPHOID FROM SPREADING IT FURTHER.

[Guest Vic]

What I am saying, or trying to, Is if carriers of paratyphoid can go unnoticed through their general good condition, God help us all! Unless some of you know more than the vets do!

[Merlin]

We cant Vic,we have to learn to live with it now, common sense tells us  that if you cant eradicate it,I dont have any issues with any fancier,whose birds are sufering with these illnesses to treat accordingly for it with whatsever required,its the thought of pumping stuff into them blindly to prevent something thats in all probability not present is the real problem,I imagine as Bigda says earlier with its close affinity to Salmonella, its possible a carrier can be recognised,if your observent,and if so then eradicate it.

[Guest bigda]

also to add paratyphoid sign in birds is  the 8th 9th  flight mainly at  the tip about a half inch down the flight displays like a small flag

and doesn't  reshape when stretched  paratyphoid is mainly from rats, and mice in your shed, but mainly mice as these wee "c " P*** all over the place the two step pi-sh two step pi-sh and thats when it can get a grip there are birds that  take it  severely and die  or have twisted necks all that stuff but there  are ones as i describe the  bean eaters no good for no wt type bring it back every other week, fancier should put two mouse traps in there shed or where they store there corn and you might get the fright of there lifes who visit   use every day  virkon s or such approved  disinfectant,  put in spray bottle and add one squirt to the drinker every day but remember  because you don"t see mice don't think they ain't there  the wee bees :'( :'( :'( one bit of maze is as good as a feast. rid the mice  :'( :'( :'(

[Guest IB]

Something i bought up earlier you treat and cure but the birds immune system through the treatment is at a much reduced level so you really need to look at how long it is before the bird will build up its immune system and be safe to put in with other birds otherwise  they are going to be very susceptible to picking up anything going especially if you start racing them again

 

I think this is a very good point, Rose. 'Treat and cure' made me think of some of the advice I've seen, and heard. How long should 'Treatment' last? A couple of days? Dead handy, just long enough for the birds to miss at most one race? Then they are right back on the road again, and back in the race basket. Is a week really enough time for a 'cure'? Maybe. But as you say, what about rest, recuperation from illness and return to full fitness?  I think if sufficient time isn't allowed for the birds immune system to get back to normal, then those birds just become the next race's losses, and those that were in the basket with them, the next round of sick birds.

 

[Guest Vic]

Good comments bigdadda, re the vermin. But this latest strain of para....... ? Call it what you want! is currently affecting the very essence of our ybs homing ability by attacking "upstairs".  Hence the reason for the disastarous season so far' with so long to go.  

[stan p]

    i think a lot of the  problems are in the  feed

   a lot not giving enought protien in the food

   for youngsters a lot hapning in yong birds life

  training racing moulting growing arf run down

befor people start racing them just my opinion

        stan p

[Roland]

I am now concerned that most of our losses these days are down to sickness, wthin a large percentage of pigeons.  Somebody correct me if I am wrong.  Take paratyphoid for instance, I have been led to believe, that many pigeons can carry it, without showing any symptoms whatsoever. And seeing that it's a very hard sickness to treat, How the hell can we stop it worsening?    

 

Samonella / Phar... etc. THESE DONT show up in dopping for instance, often a secondarily illness when birds are down, and ofen a loft has carriers, and too many fanciers don't even know, let alone realise.

I suggest that more lofts look into these illnesses Vic.

[Guest Vic]

May, I enquire once again, why this crucial informative posting was demoted to an inferior position. You arbitrators,  either improve or LOSE.