Losses?

[Guest Vic]

 

It's the same reason why doctors won't prescribe antibiotics at the drop of a hat - like they used to.  And the same reason I have to suffer with tonsilitis for three weeks ;-D

 

Who needs jaws, with paws like yours?

 

 

[Tony C]

Jabbing up against  paratyphoid guarantees you next to nothing. The vaccine only immunises against a very small percentage of the 2000+ different avian strains. By all means get them tested for it if you feel your pigeons are under performing but don’t think for one minute that because you have jabbed you can then discount this disease for losses or poor performances.

 

It doesn’t answer your question Vic but it shows what were fighting against.

[Guest Vic]

Jabbing up against  paratyphoid guarantees you next to nothing. The vaccine only immunises against a very small percentage of the 2000+ different avian strains. By all means get them tested for it if you feel your pigeons are under performing but don’t think for one minute that because you have jabbed you can then discount this disease for losses or poor performances.

 

It doesn’t answer your question Vic but it shows what were fighting against.

AREN'T WE ALL! lol.

 

 

[Guest Vic]

With about only 10% replies, on something that is crucial in pigeon racing today. I have came to one conclusion, It will be too late, when the wise men, have gone.

[peterpau]

I wouldn't dream of using Baytril and vaccinating. We use too much gear propping them up, keep too many stock pigeons, and don't push 'em far eneough.

I use cider vinegar and honey, natural yoghurt, and milton. I do treat for kanker and use Ivermectin for worms, but this is only occasional. When young, the birds need to establish their own immunity first, before treating with all and sundry. The overuse of drugs, in the livestock industry, has caused tremendous problems, and it's not a road I wish to go down.

[jimmy white]

So! Is it a hush, hush game that we are in? Antibiotics? Never, never, they preach! Yet according to some, it's ok to use the wide spects, when it suits  them. As I said previously, for how long?

 

A GOOD AVIAN VETENARY DOCTOR , NEAR ME, COMMENTED , THAT PIGEON FANCIERS ARE THEIR OWN WORST ENEMY , IN USING ANTIBIOTICS WILLY NILLY, AND OTHER UN-NEEDFULL MEDICATION,,,,[sORRY VIC ;D  DIDNT MEAN TO SHOUT  ;D ;D ;D]

[Merlin]

Well then I am another Luddite,thankfully,with two lofts of free range healthy racing birds,also a kit of rollers thanks to no doubt mostly old fashioned common sense stockmanship, I would I am sure use an anti-biotic if and when needed,it hasnt been for many years,nil,only the regular P.M.V. vaccination,and this beacuse its compulsory,would urge any fancier,to get back to basics,especially newbies to begin this way,even Medical Science is  finding using anti-biotics willy nilly are causing more problems than they solve,you can find as much benifit for our birds on supermarket shelves,for a fraction of what similar costs elsewhere,as for results when racing,as good if not better than many of those who appear to have a degree from Vetrinary College, putting this gunk into birds on a regular basis, has payback time eventuallyt.  

[pjc]

One thing i havn't seen pointed out and probably the reason for not many replies Vic is that there isn't a legal Vacine for Paratyphoid in this country is there?

Anybody vaccinating is obtaining it illegaly and by putting on here that they are jabbing are telling the world they are breaking the law!

 

Phil

[me]

Well then I am another Luddite,thankfully,with two lofts of free range healthy racing birds,also a kit of rollers thanks to no doubt mostly old fashioned common sense stockmanship, I would I am sure use an anti-biotic if and when needed,it hasnt been for many years,nil,only the regular P.M.V. vaccination,and this beacuse its compulsory,would urge any fancier,to get back to basics,especially newbies to begin this way,even Medical Science is  finding using anti-biotics willy nilly are causing more problems than they solve,you can find as much benifit for our birds on supermarket shelves,for a fraction of what similar costs elsewhere,as for results when racing,as good if not better than many of those who appear to have a degree from Vetrinary College, putting this gunk into birds on a regular basis, has payback time eventuallyt.  

 

you are priviliged never to have any sick birds. No one is suggesting you should use antibiotics without reason but to refuse to use any treatment on birds and just let them die is a bit perverted.

 

Doomen should hope they don't change the law and MAFF don't bring in compulsary testing and eradication of affected flocks because that will be doo racing finished once and for all, trust "me" a large percentage of lofts have this in them and it breaks out from time to time not alwas identified as para but definite causes illness in our birds.

 

And for the last time using antibiotics does not harm any animals imnune system why can't some of you "experts" get that through your heads.

[jimmy_84]

Think you have been slightly misled on your last paragraph me   Antibiotics destroy not only the infection but they also destroy  the good bacteria (healthy gut flora) in the digestive tract

 

That was what i was told by an old fancier if a bird is healthy it should be able to fight illness itself if you use anti-biotics it weakens the birds imune system therefore leaving the bird open to other illnesses but i am no vet and neither was the chap who told me he has however had birds for 40+ years and he lost more birds since vaccinations were compulsory than ever he now keeps a few for his own pleasure and no longer races just a point

[sammy]

Think you have been slightly misled on your last paragraph me   Antibiotics destroy not only the infection but they also destroy  the good bacteria (healthy gut flora) in the digestive tract

 

Think this is the point most fanciers miss rose once they have trated for something with antibiotics  they have to replace the good bacteria and its not done by giving vitamins in the water for one day they have to use a good probioctic  

[me]

Think you have been slightly misled on your last paragraph me   Antibiotics destroy not only the infection but they also destroy  the good bacteria (healthy gut flora) in the digestive tract

 

No I have'nt Rose this was exactly the point I was making friendly bacteria being destroyed by antibiotics does not mean the birds immune system has been affected. Once bad bacteria have left the gut there is nothing good gut bacteria can do about it. Thats where the birds IMMUNE SYSTEM comes in although it is sometimes advisable to administer antibiotics to help it if the challenge is too great.

 

And of course anyone  would follow up treatment by giving multivits and probiotics to get the bird back on an even keel as soon as possible.

 

 

[Guest chrisss]

i have been told that "in the good old days" birds were treated for nothing,did not birds get ill "back then"?,in those days[i have been told] there were no "stock lofts" full of birds that cost a lot ,with a lot of paper behind them,the stock if there was any, were old birds that had proved it on the road,there were no big studs pushing out tons of birds  daily ,it seems to me that we have tons of birds hitting the roads,treated with god knows what every week,bred down from generations of birds that have not seen a basket because of the price of the parents,with their offspring also going into the stock loft "just in case!,so their young birds go racing,at least 3 generations from "the champ" and get lost, all of this might be wrong just my thoughts,but with the amount of strays i have had this year all "from a fed winner mate do you want it?"there is something drastic going on

[Ronnie]

And for the last time using antibiotics does not harm any animals imnune system why can't some of you "experts" get that through your heads.

 

 

No one is saying Antibiotics kill the immune system what they do is the germs they dont kill they allow to get there own resistance against future antibiotics and that is where your so called supebug's come from so before you know it the Immune system can no longer fight the said disease because it has mutated and become resistant to most cure's .So then we pour more antibiotics in and the cycle is repeated over and over again .But the overall problem what a lot of people have missed is most if not all Illness's pickeds up in the basket and round the loft are due to stress and the best fight against stress is Vitamin C witch hardly anyone gives birds because birds are able to make there own but only if they are healthy and if there stressed there not healthy.

In reply to the original question Vic all losses are not due to illness i lost 8 young birds last week from 120 mile race(out of a team of 24) i still took third in the club and i will be in the cards this week as well and i havnt lost any today .which leads me to think the birds i lost where not ill they just wernt up to the task.

As usual this is just my opinion and like ive pointed out before i am new to the game so i will prolly get lots of replies telling me different

[just ask me]

the problem is all these new dieses years ago yes u could get away without useing them but there is cases where they have to be used but what gets me is i hear pll saying i havent used antibitiocs but when u enter there loft u can see straight away that there birds have more than cancer cooci big green dropings  just keep an open mind and 1 quick hint lads baytrill is not a cure for all it is a top class drug that can be used when certain dieses come along

[peterpau]

Well there's a four year old cock in my pen that has won inland flown Perth Pau and Palamos and I've never used baytril, vaccinated for paratyphoid, or treated for anything more than worms and kanker. I don't think you get birds that fly 300 mile one way then 750 the other by propping them up all the time. Cider vinegar honey natural yoghurt and milton will do me thanks. Can't help but think if you have to rely on Baytril or other antibiotics you might need to look at your husbandry.

[Guest Vic]

Yes! Many excellent replies. But who is to know how many of our fellow competitors, have  carrriers of paratyphoid within their lofts? THIS IS THE CRUX OF THE MATTER. surely there is no solution and it will run rife in the future.

[bewted]

Well there's a four year old cock in my pen that has won inland flown Perth Pau and Palamos and I've never used baytril, vaccinated for paratyphoid, or treated for anything more than worms and kanker. I don't think you get birds that fly 300 mile one way then 750 the other by propping them up all the time. Cider vinegar honey natural yoghurt and milton will do me thanks. Can't help but think if you have to rely on Baytril or other antibiotics you might need to look at your husbandry.

 

well said !!!!

[ChrisMaidment08]

 

well said !!!!

 

pardon would you like to refrace that statement

[me]

 

Over use of antibiotics stops the immune system doing what it is supposed to do building up a memory of specific antibodies to fight disease or anything similar to what it has had  I am not saying that the use of antibiotics is not necessary in some cases obviously the immune system needs to be helped

 

To be honest Rose I think in many ways our thoughts on this subject are closer than we might have expected. I will say this I have never known a doo man (or woman sorry) who would not have given his best and by definition his favourite doo anything that would have helped if it struggling against something in its later years in the stock loft.

 

The inportant thing is to use drugs when they are needed not just because someone says you should. Do that and you will help your birds when they need it and at other times the birds will help themselves!

 

[me]

i have been told that "in the good old days" birds were treated for nothing,did not birds get ill "back then"?,in those days[i have been told] there were no "stock lofts" full of birds that cost a lot ,with a lot of paper behind them,the stock if there was any, were old birds that had proved it on the road,there were no big studs pushing out tons of birds  daily ,it seems to me that we have tons of birds hitting the roads,treated with god knows what every week,bred down from generations of birds that have not seen a basket because of the price of the parents,with their offspring also going into the stock loft "just in case!,so their young birds go racing,at least 3 generations from "the champ" and get lost, all of this might be wrong just my thoughts,but with the amount of strays i have had this year all "from a fed winner mate do you want it?"there is something drastic going on

 

There was no good old days chriss in the "bad old days" pigeons would die without hope from cocci then somebody discovered that the sulpha drugs had cocci bang to right and pigeon fanciers were "over the moon" (well its near the start of the football season).

 

You have to be old like  "me" but even then some people were against treatment, but now who in their right mind would not protect their young birds against cocci?

 

Luddites - only Luddites would not take care of the birds they love!

 

[jimmy white]

and erudites would know better ;D ;D ;D

[Merlin]

I would like to see the evidence that paratyphoid is common, or on the increase, and that illness is responsible for losses.

 

While the 'carrier' state of any disease is well known, it cannot exist in isolation. The parent may be a carrier, but in the hen at least, the live version of the infection must be transmitted to the unborn youngster via the egg, with probable death(s) occurring in the nest. So where you have a carrier, you have infected and sick birds too. So it is fairly obvious where the likely source is.

 

The manufacturers of Baytril are also quite clear on the use of their product in treating Salmonella - don't, cull the birds out. And the reason for that is known bacterial resistance to the drug, and to prevent further strains developing resistance. Culling out disease is also Law in this country, and its practice is very evident whenever there is any serious disease outbreak, Foot & Mouth, Blue toungue, Newcastle Disease,  Avian Flu etc etc.

 

  Now if and when it shows in your loft,eradicate the carriers,much better in the long run to naturally repress the host,than treat all willy nilly with anti biotics,which in turn will create a more virulent and lethal bacteria,capable of even more damage,and on and on it goes,actually to think for one moment you can best Nature is more Luddite thinking than other lines of thought,you may tweak or fool it for a period of time,but man can never best it,to think so is foolish,and back to original question Losses,there are many reasons,sickness being just one,a whole barrell load of them,my own favourite is there is too much crap being bred,twice as many rings issued this season  as there was 30 years ago,yet only half the fanciers now in the game as there was 30 years ago,what is this telling us.

[just ask me]

yes but the problem is the carrier of para might never get sick and shows signs of the disese so u could cull all around u and the carrier stiil be in your loft just a point

[Guest IB]

Back in 'the good old days' in the 1960 and 70's half the the illnesses that are common today were unknown then. No paratyphoid, no paramyxo, no YBS etc. The worst that you had to contend with then were canker, cocci and worms, and from memory, there was no preventative treatment given for those - none that I can remember reading in the many loft reports in the pigeon press..

 

I think this is backed-up by a comment from Tony Cowan in the vet David Parson's DVD attributed to DEFRA: "UK fanciers used to have wonderful, healthy birds, until they started importing from Belgium..." With the birds came the 'methods' followed closely by the diseases.