External Parasites

[Roland]

Can't answer it Ribble.... can only repeat WHY! I certainly wouldn't enterain the idea. I know much has been over subscribe with little or no effect, and likewise more that have had a detrimental effect.

An example, when ... but will post it tonight as I have to dash off.

[ribble]

why,because i have a farmer friend who has it and has told me to take some.

why wouldn't you entertain the idea?

chatrace in his reply (112) states he puts 3 drops of the ijectable in the mouth.

in your post above (126) you think members should club together to buy pour on.

i would find it far easier to administer by way of a drop on the skin than orally as chatrace does.

that is WHY i am asking.

[Roland]

Well why Double up?

Because it was found that if a substance of FEED is injected direct into a bird then the liver would turn that into 100% flying FAT within 3 MINUTESS! Now get your head arund that!

If it takes a day or two for oral. AND.... just imagine what the effects would be if you Injected the like of SPOT on.... And nuts to your mate, is he a pigeon? Is he qualified to state what the diffence is. Take and extra shot of any Drug that is for a certain system and abuse it, then you are tempting catastrophe.

So in your above post you have answered your own question. why would one want to do it!!!? I wouldn't, perhaps you DON'T understand what you actually asked, and then the answer. Seems so to me.

End of toic, WE both NOW know!

[ribble]

i still don't think you understand my question,infact i'm sure.

i'm not wanting to inject my birds with anything.

 

[mO]

Cheap as chips.

Wilkinsons stock a DOG flea product.

Its two small tubes sold as one treatment ie one small tube = one small dog, two tubes = large dog

But:-

Touch the breast bone with one spot. NO LICE--- NO MORE!

Also Vircon S in bath helps too.

[stevebelbin]

Also as I mentioned earlier, Easitox, £2.50 per tube that does 60 birds and its as simple as one drop on the neck and no more lice. Then its just a case of putting malt vinegar in the water to keep any further lice away, Simple and Effective  

[Roland]

Sorry Ribble, possiblely don't then.

I thought instead of  leaving a substance on the outer, thoughts that it might be better to jab.

Like a inhaler, then orally taken to improve or make more effective.

So I can't help there matey.

Any way for any one that thinks that there could be a beneficial side to that particular scenario I'd warn to be careful.

Why? Wel the extra speed could be devastating, for example studies in the USA found that when glucose, the sugar stored as starch in cereal grains, was injected intravenously into hungry pigeons, it was converted to fat by the liver within in three minutes - which indicates that the liver is the main organ for the production of fat from carbohydrates.  The fat produced is located and stored in the body cavity among the intestines and is mobilised as cruising flight gets underway in a toss or a race. Now that is mind boggling, and I'd certainly err on the side of caution ... Personally I'd never entertain the idea.

[Rentenier]

I have Breeder (cock) that has a bare patch the size of approx.30mmx30mm on his back. I have deloused it and sprayed it with Beksedust(?). I do not see any regrowing of feathers. What could be the problem.

What else should i try.

[Guest]

Sorry Ribble, possiblely don't then.

I thought instead of  leaving a substance on the outer, thoughts that it might be better to jab.

Like a inhaler, then orally taken to improve or make more effective.

So I can't help there matey.

Any way for any one that thinks that there could be a beneficial side to that particular scenario I'd warn to be careful.

Why? Wel the extra speed could be devastating, for example studies in the USA found that when glucose, the sugar stored as starch in cereal grains, was injected intravenously into hungry pigeons, it was converted to fat by the liver within in three minutes - which indicates that the liver is the main organ for the production of fat from carbohydrates.  The fat produced is located and stored in the body cavity among the intestines and is mobilised as cruising flight gets underway in a toss or a race. Now that is mind boggling, and I'd certainly err on the side of caution ... Personally I'd never entertain the idea.

 

Don't seem to grasp the simple fact that it doesn't stay 'out' but goes in, and is stored within the body. Anything that can be stored can also be mobilised again. The fat soluble vitamins, glycogen etc come back into circulation when needed by the body, so don't see why deposited ivermectin residues don't come out for a wee spin round the body too. And a fat lot of good they'll do too.

[Guest]

I have Breeder (cock) that has a bare patch the size of approx.30mmx30mm on his back. I have deloused it and sprayed it with Beksedust(?). I do not see any regrowing of feathers. What could be the problem.

What else should i try.

 

An unusual place? Wondered if the bird has hit a wire and that has caused the bare patch? Never seen quill / defeathering mite, I understand that if they were present, there would be broken quill there albeit level with the skin but still visible, and they would also show up from a skin scraping under the microscope.

[Roland]

 

Don't seem to grasp the simple fact that it doesn't stay 'out' but goes in, and is stored within the body. Anything that can be stored can also be mobilised again. The fat soluble vitamins, glycogen etc come back into circulation when needed by the body, so don't see why deposited ivermectin residues don't come out for a wee spin round the body too. And a fat lot of good they'll do too.

 

Well there is a perfectly simple logically example Bruno … Must say you worry me sometimes lol.

Now sit down a pay attention.

Many things are good for external use … Read the ‘Warning label’s’. Wonder why they put them on!

Many things have just a pill placed with food or water! Ointments are rubbed in. I wonder why…  Then substances re inhaled. Some have three different ways of use…. I wonder why.

When on the ‘Death Bed’ as a LAST RESORT an injection directly in the heart!!! I wonder why!

You must agree surely that they are several methods of inducement and putting ‘Stuff’ into ours and the Birds system etc. etc. – I  CAN write a 6 page dossier for you if need be!

Any way to further enlighten to you, birds peck up corn Yes! Alright so far? Good and cool that then.

Their ‘Inner system breaks it down and distributes its over a period of time to the parts that may – or may not – need it. When the ‘Cup’ is full, then the excess is passed through.

Now if one sticks ‘Maple peas all over the bird, and even direct contact with the skin, I can tell you Bruno, and you must believe this, they won’t dissolve and go through the skin! Trust me, take my word for it!

That needs to be eaten to get inside of the bird. That takes a certain amount of time to be sorted and stored or passed through. 24 – 48 hours, even more for other storage to be successful.

Yet…. WAIT for it Bruno. Don’t get excited. Oh I see you have grasped it, when broken down and jabbed 3 minutes!

You don’t give horse heat treatment ointment orally to speed it up and make it work quicker, well you might but most wouldn’t, take my word for it, ask a vet if it would actually work if you must.

Many medicines are available in different forms to be taken. Some Stronger need a Certificate for the use, I wonder why. So one want to make the Heart beat a mite stronger, and a mite longer, could use an herbal over a few days, or jab a substance direct into the heart I suppose.

Must be a reason why different strengths and different means of administering are put into practice.

Could well be that a steady and gentle build works best and very satisfactory over a period of time.

Could well be food for thought that if condensed, or put into a stronger concentrated form, then jabbed directly into the birds' system: that the birds’ system couldn’t handle it and if not kill the bird do a vast damage and at least render the bird useless.

Hope this helps Bruno. Mind Read a few more books, and take aboard why medicines normally refer to pacific proportions and usage! Personally I twigged it as a young lad….

[Guest]

Clear you don't have a solid understanding of how the product you advise others to use works. You can put up all the pseudo-science tripe you like and call me whatever you like, but my information on this comes not from a book, but from someone well qualified in the field and sufficiently knowledgeable on the subject that the SHU sought (and acted upon) his opinion.

 

Here is an extract (again) of what the Harkers boichemist said in reply to an email I sent him:-

 

 

Feather drops (Harkers product) have been formulated not to penetrate the skin and do not have any systemic action. No adverse reactions or side effects were noted during the extensive field trials of the product.

 

Harkers have no interest in ivomec / dectomax as these products are not licensed for use in pigeons. Harkers being an ethical company does not manufacture distribute or supply products which have not been formulated and tested specifically for pigeons.

 

Harkers became involved in the ivomec / dectomax issue when the SHU became concerned about the use of these unlicensed products on pigeons and asked for background information and an opinion from a qualified biochemist.

 

Your pour-on is a Systemic action poison which permeates the birds skin and enters the blood stream. The blood stream then gives ivomec express-train access to all parts of the body. Your assertion that the bird needs to eat before anything can enter it is dangerous and ill-informed nonsense.

[Roland]

What has that got to do with the price of eggs???

Where and why you plucked that out from is completely irrelevant!

The simple statement is ‘Horses for courses’ mucker, and if it is Oral, then sticks to it. If it says 'Through Skin' then sticks to it. The mere fact that that is the recommended way and / or dosage should be obvious.... even to you when you’re not trying to impress, or a Pull at me.

Intra... goes direct, and that with pour on for example is NOT what is needed, BUT to build up and like other 'Spot On's' is not to be jabbed straight into the system. Harkers don't sell spot on and say, 'Of course, if you want jab the dog/ Cat / Elephant and it will do a much better Job'. If this was the case the Vet's would jump on the wagon.

 

And Harker is a commercial company, and I took my Quote from a renowned Worldwide Vet, etc. who has publications all over the place, and even wrote / writes in the BHW. Further backed up by two other very well renowned and respected persons who aren't making a living from their sales, or being paid to promote a company or product!

[Guest]

Its relevance is obviously lost on you.  

 

Perhaps you are unaware the skin is the biggest organ in any living body and part of the immune system, first line defence. Its there to keep the outside outside, and the inside bits inside & safe from outside invasion. It is able to repair itself e.g. cuts, blisters etc. and is not normally permeable, otherwise it might as well not be there.

 

You advocate something toxic dropped on the bird's skin which permeates the skin and enters the blood stream via the skin's blood vessels. The blood vessels connect every part of the body, like hi-speed railway lines..

 

Toxins penetrating the skin are likely to damage the skin beyond repair.  The immune system is breached, and if ivermectin molecules can get through, then so can every other microbe on the planet.

 

 

But then if you obeyed the product label, and thought the don'ts through (very basic biological principles apply) you'd know all that.

 

 

[Guest]

Fifer I sent you a pm a while back but I guess you never got it. I remember you saying about strong garlic water in the baths to keep lice away. How do you make up your bath water? Do you put cloves in bottles of water for a few days before hand and if so how many? Do you chop them up? How much water do you then add solution to? Also I read before about mothballs in the lofts, how is it best to administer these and how many per loft for size etc. This year moths have been a real *expletive removed* for me. Many thanks for you suggestions.

[Roland]

Bruno what has your last post got to do with my saying that 'If it is for certain 'Ways' then best stick to it... outside of having to agree with me!

Likewise Heat treat, Bruising etc. etc. etc. are treated from OUTSIDE of the Skin ... obviously the bruising etc. is Under the skin!

Same as Treatment for Arthritis, etc. etc. etc.

And yes I did know the skin was / is the largest organ.

So wind your neck in and just agree... instead of endorsing as if omething new!

End of topic.

[Guest shadow]

I think this disagrement has gone far enough and there is no need for sarcastic comments everybody has thier own point of view and should agree to disagree

[Roland]

Well said... I agree fully.

Mind I don't believe ‘disagreement’ is the right scenario, more like different points of view, which is what 'Debating' is all about. Personally I don't for a minute believe that Bruno would hold a grudge or endeavour in the slightest to do me any kind of injustice, or hurt. I know I wouldn't him, indeed I am sure that we will on many occasions be 100% in agreement ... Likewise no doubt we, and others, will undoubtedly also beg to differ. Its like, 'Shake hands, come out spouting, and win, lose or draw may the best points be adhered to'.

So I obviously in debate know there has to be an element of 'personalities' different strokes etc. and view points. Sometime both are wrong, or right, but other can always draw their on conclusions, and may get something from us... even if it's only dandruff.

But overall it doesn't, as you will no doubt agree do any harm to abide a good old verbal punch up. Even if you can't, let alone wish to side either way.

And again some,  - not many - won't bother to read, which is of course their preoperative

[johnny11]

Roly how you doing me old mucker

[Roland]

I am doing well Mucker, golly have a job to lose me sayings eh lol!

[Roland]

Hope you Jo and all are well John.

[johnny11]

very well thanks Roly. we are having a latebred in April so we are expanding.

 

I hope everyone is well down your way, how did the racing go last year, if any?

 

John

[Roland]

Entered some races... won a little like. Had only day birds a couple of times like. Only have a few now. ( 8 pair tops, and two retired ones. Never bothered to go short ones. Didn't train above 4 times total either, so was more than pleasd really ... I tried the controlling on feed alone. Works good, and has many merits - But of course I will be Glad when the 'Savoy' loft is down... houses 100's if not 1000's of birds just 40yards away.

I never bothered again to race y/b's, but will next season as I will actually breed quite a few for a change.

Been holidaying a couple times or so abroad, which plays havoc with the racing, also as you know, if I work Evenings, seems no one, but no - one will actually take me birds... yes the promise of course, till they are asked... then ....

Best one was Joe's who says just leave them... Wife won't allow and Joe won't be back from the Pub till 7 lol. after 3 times I gave up... But of course he is only too pleased to help lol. But am cutting back me work and....

[Guest beautyhomer]

 

Don't seem to grasp the simple fact that it doesn't stay 'out' but goes in, and is stored within the body. Anything that can be stored can also be mobilised again. The fat soluble vitamins, glycogen etc come back into circulation when needed by the body, so don't see why deposited ivermectin residues don't come out for a wee spin round the body too. And a fat lot of good they'll do too.

 

Bruno,where did you get your information that ivermectin is deposited in the body and not broken down and removed.If this is the case then the meat withhold periods issued by the drug companies would not be valid as ivermectin would be stored in the body and not be fit for human consumption.

Every time an animal was wormed there would be an increased concentration in the animals body.If you believe this to be true am I to assume that you are a vegetarian because you do not want yourself to be exposed to ivermectin residues

[Guest]

 

Bruno,where did you get your information that ivermectin is deposited in the body and not broken down and removed.If this is the case then the meat withhold periods issued by the drug companies would not be valid as ivermectin would be stored in the body and not be fit for human consumption.

Every time an animal was wormed there would be an increased concentration in the animals body.If you believe this to be true am I to assume that you are a vegetarian because you do not want yourself to be exposed to ivermectin residues

 

It is unreasonable to propose that what happens in cattle happens in pigeons too, or what's good for cattle is good for pigeons too,

 

With respect, if you look again at your question you will see that your reasoning is flawed. The main point being that you are comparing correct ivomec usage & dosage on large mammals (cattle, for which ivomec was intended) the research to support that doseage endorsed by the license allowing its use in cattle, and incorrect ivomec use on 'small' birds (pigeons) involving a probable massive overdose, probable no research and definite no license..

 

If there was no 'hold' in the pigeon's body then it wouldn't be 'said to be' free from lice & worms for a year, nor would it be toxic to hawks if and when the pigeon is taken & eaten.

 

But there is research on hawks and 'build-up' not 'break-down' was noted there. Both being bird species and linked through this poisoning, it is reasonable to propose that what happens in the hawk also happens in the pigeon.

 

That's the circumstantial 'using common-sense to work things out' information. Here is the factual stuff to back that up:-

 

Extract from BHW 21st October 2005

 

Ivomectin / dectomax

 

Linda Brooks (SHU Secy) received letter from Harker’s Dr J M Ballany:

 

Pigeons coming into contact with the above CATTLE products  stand an extremely high risk of being poisoned as the dose rate for these products is 500 micrograms / kg bodyweight which relates to 1ml / 10kg up to a maximum dose of 40ml in cattle. Translating this dose rate to pigeons (average weight 400g) 0.04 of a millilitre would be applied. No pigeon fancier would be capable of administering such a small dose accurately. This dose may well be fatal to pigeons as no research has been done in pigeons with Ivomectin or Dectomax. These products are not intended for amateur use. It is illegal to purchase / administer these chemicals for use on other than the licensed species. Dectomax / Ivomectin are irritating to the skin and eyes and must not be used on dogs. Operators should wear rubber gloves and boots with a waterproof coat and goggles / visor when applying the product. The effect of these chemicals on birds of prey eating treated pigeons would be similar to that of Dieldrin / Lindane as they would accumulate in the bird of prey and eventually cause death. Both these chemicals have withdrawal periods up to 56 days after treatment before it is safe to eat meat or drink milk from treated animals.

 

Please advise your colleagues that it is extremely inadvisable to recommend treatment of pigeons with these products.

 

Now I emailed Dr Bellamy to find out how Harkers became involved in this issue, as given that they manufacture insecticides & wormers, there may have been a conflict of interest. This is an extract of their reply in January 2006:

 

Harkers have no interest in ivomec / dectomax as these products are not licensed for use in pigeons. Harkers being an ethical company does not manufacture distribute or supply products which have not been formulated and tested specifically for pigeons.

 

Harkers became involved in the ivomec / dectomax issue when the SHU became concerned about the use of these unlicensed products on pigeons and asked for background information and an opinion from a qualified biochemist.

 

 

And the reason the Scottish Homing Union became concerned and contacted Harkers for an informed opinion was because Joe Murphy in his BHW column had proposed the widespread use of ivomec by the fancy as a hawk 'deterrent'. Joe published the subsequent SHU / Harkers correspondance in his column on 21st October 2005, and has never mentioned the subject since.