eyesign opinions please.

[Jack Barkel]

Hello Folks,

 

I have no intention of getting involved in this senseless argument about eye sign or iridology for that matter, but let me clarify one thing for all time.

Eye sign was never meant to pick out the winners, wind velocity and direction, loft position and many other imponderables go to making a winner, although a double triple fed winner at velocities of 1150 and under are easily distinguishable.

 

Eye sign is used to tell the genetic drift in all youngsters bred by people who pair their pigeons by guess work. If one understands the genetic drift in the eye one can select their stock birds , leaving very little to guess work. There is also the compatibility of two birds to be paired together, which can be controlled by what is diagnosed in the eye.

 

Of course all pigeons these days have winners in their gene pool, that is through the guessers who throw birds together without any knowledge of the facts I have given you all on previous occasions. However the percentage good pigeons they will produce is down to 7% by the world statistics. 50% and more can be produced with the correct understanding of eye sign, of which most eye sign guys really have very little knowledge.

 

I say, let the basket prove the winners and the better pigeon flyers, and let those who know how to select pigeons and pair them for stock go about their business without being subjected to ridiculous accusations by some people who have no idea what the advantages of eye sign are.

 

Trying to pick ordinary winners by eye sign is a futile exercise, and to the none believers, carry on disbelieving or put your money where your mouth is and I will take every cent you have and the best pigeons out of your loft. My record is known internationally and I do not need to prove it on here, but please let this set the record straight about picking the odd bird that has won a race by eye sign.

 

I remain loyal and friendly to all pigeon fanciers throughout the world, but never ask me to join in your games for that is all they are Guessing Games.

 

Jack Barkel

 

jackbarkel@mweb.co.za

 

http://mysite.mweb.co.za/residents/jackbarkel

 

 

[Guest]

Eye sign is used to tell the genetic drift in all youngsters bred by people who pair their pigeons by guess work.

It is physically impossible to identify genetic drift by looking at the eye of a bird?  If I'm wrong I'd love to see the evidential references to this happening if you could.  Genetic drift is purely based around the hypothesis of the probability factor of evolution nothing else, its as reliable as a coin toss which is often the analogy given to the randomness of allele frequencies which is the main focus of genetic drift observations.  

 

There you go bigda, some of us never wasted our time in school.  

 

 

[Ian Gill]

Hello Folks,

 

I have no intention of getting involved in this senseless argument about eye sign or iridology for that matter, but let me clarify one thing for all time.

Eye sign was never meant to pick out the winners, wind velocity and direction, loft position and many other imponderables go to making a winner, although a double triple fed winner at velocities of 1150 and under are easily distinguishable.

 

Eye sign is used to tell the genetic drift in all youngsters bred by people who pair their pigeons by guess work. If one understands the genetic drift in the eye one can select their stock birds , leaving very little to guess work. There is also the compatibility of two birds to be paired together, which can be controlled by what is diagnosed in the eye.

 

Of course all pigeons these days have winners in their gene pool, that is through the guessers who throw birds together without any knowledge of the facts I have given you all on previous occasions. However the percentage good pigeons they will produce is down to 7% by the world statistics. 50% and more can be produced with the correct understanding of eye sign, of which most eye sign guys really have very little knowledge.

 

I say, let the basket prove the winners and the better pigeon flyers, and let those who know how to select pigeons and pair them for stock go about their business without being subjected to ridiculous accusations by some people who have no idea what the advantages of eye sign are.

 

Trying to pick ordinary winners by eye sign is a futile exercise, and to the none believers, carry on disbelieving or put your money where your mouth is and I will take every cent you have and the best pigeons out of your loft. My record is known internationally and I do not need to prove it on here, but please let this set the record straight about picking the odd bird that has won a race by eye sign.

 

I remain loyal and friendly to all pigeon fanciers throughout the world, but never ask me to join in your games for that is all they are Guessing Games.

 

Jack Barkel

 

jackbarkel@mweb.co.za

 

http://mysite.mweb.co.za/residents/jackbarkel

 

 

A big statement Jack and I am quite aware of your reputation around the world...Like you I dont want to get embroiled in an arguement about eyesign but I would like you to answer one question for me if you would..Can you show me any evidence that "eyesign" is used in breeding race horses,greyhounds or for that matter any other animal/birds used in a sporting manner??

 

And if not why not?? Just curious

 

 

 

[Jack Barkel]

You are wrong my friend, a racing pigeon was designed by humans, and the variations in many of the genes manifest themselves in the eye.

 

They evolved  or degenerated through pigeon fanciers.

 

You know nothing about the eye either in humans, dogs, pigeons or horses, which are the designs of humans. Go back to the school that proves me wrong by your statements and see what they have learned about the subject since then.

 

You are entittled to your opinions, but in my opinion they do not hold water.

 

Jack Barkel

[Guest gladdo]

now see this seems to be a very good point on here about all...lets not get carried away and start arguing we all trying to learn something but from what i can see and what is my point of view is you cant tell a great racer or breeder just by the eyes can you ??????????? no i did not think so ...thats all...thanks mikey (dublin , ireland )

[Jack Barkel]

The Eyes Do Have It.

 

By Jack Barkel.

 

 

 

To begin this subject, let me say I have studied the eyes of wild and domesticated creatures as well has those of human beings for many years. I am also an avid bird watcher and have many illustrations of wild birds in South Africa, plus the shapes of their wings and the different eyes to aid them in what they are put on this earth to do.

 

Many fanciers say that eyes never change, however I have found this to be so untrue, for circumstances and habitat do cause drastic changes to the eye. This is all part of the introduction to a paper I will never publish, but which I will leave to be disposed of as my family deems appropriate after I pass on.

 

I have studied eyes of creatures that have been genetically engineered by humans to create stamina and speed for racing purposes, namely horses, greyhounds and as we need to deal with here; Racing Pigeons.

 

Unfortunately the racing pigeon has been experimented with by do it yourself artists, that constantly change the gene pool every time they put two pigeons together. Many of them are learned people, but are completely ignorant of what they are creating in their punitive efforts to breed the pigeon of their choice. They will constantly spout forth that a pigeon will inherit 50% genes from both its parents! of course it will, no body is disputing this genetically known fact. However they fail to say that they have little or no idea which genes the new progeny is inheriting from either of its parents. They say that they are aware that the sex genes are not inherited equally, but, they also say that they are of such a small percentage that they are of little matter and that they relate mainly to the colour genes.

 

Again such statements to the pigeon fancy are unforgivable, for the sex linked colour gene is the only visible proof to them that they exist, and that is all they have to base their statements on.

 

Yet, the colour gene is the least important of the sex genes when we come to breed pigeons of better quality than the seven percent that is being achieved worldwide at the moment. Not one geneticist will endeavour to say what percentage of the sex genes go into making a better than normal racing and breeding pigeon, and I am also unwilling to make a guess also. I will however state categorically that these are the genes we are trying to harness in the endeavour to breed better pigeons.

 

The eyes of wild birds stay the same year in and year out, the eye of any species is unchanging unless its habitat or circumstances in life change. When we come to Racing Pigeons, they have been so genetically altered and meddled or should I say muddled with by often so called experts, that they are as variable as the fingerprints of a human being. The eyes of humans have suffered the same confusing effect by the mixing of races and clans over the years. The eyes of the offspring of future generations are continuously changing, for the gene pools of all parents’ whether pigeon or mankind have been continuously muddied by the mentality or lack thereof in many who would call themselves master breeders or an authority on such subjects. With humans we have little or no chance of control over this genetic drift, for humans will marry or procreate with those of their personal choice, whereas with the racing pigeon we can play a large part in what we bring into this world. Humans are also changing with the rapid pace they are evolving in the scientific field.

 

I have been berated, criticised and insulted over the years, for trying to put across how to improve our breeding stock. There are many that not only disbelieve what I am doing, but will loudly condemn me without ever achieving anything themselves other than making a lot of noise. It is a pity that such people and situations exist, for without it we could have pooled our resources and progressed much further than we have in the last one hundred and fifty years or so.

 

The conformation of the body and wing is an easy thing to control, it can be visibly seen and understood and physically felt by even a blind person. When one comes to the eye it is a different complicated story altogether. There are many who call themselves Eye Sign Experts, which have gained only the slightest of knowledge on the subject and use it to deceive others that they are capable of doing many things with this little knowledge they have gained. Some are very convincing while others are just plain downright nutters for the want of a more fitting expression.

 

Although I have many avid followers of those that believe in my methods, it is disappointing that there are many who will not give what I say a little consideration. I have explained my reasons for things being the way they are, but still there are those that stick doggedly to an opinion of their own, with no explanations whatsoever.

 

Let me explain some factors that we can ascertain by believing in the sex genes playing a big part in what quality of racing pigeon we produce.

 

1. If on pairing two birds together we find that they breed successful birds of both sexes, we can presume that both the sire and the dam are good breeding birds and compatible with each other.

 

2. If we find that the hens are good and the cocks not so good, we can assume that the sire is good and the dam not so good, the explanation being that the Sire and Dam have both contributed equally to the male offspring, but that the hen did not contribute to the female offspring. Please remember we are referring to purely sex genes here.

 

3. If we find that such a pairing produces good cocks, and hens that are not so good, we can say that the sex genes of the Sire are not of the same high standard as those of the Dam. For all the sex genes of the sire have gone into the making of his daughters.

 

I ceased competing in 1997, eleven years ago, and yet my birds are still producing winners at a better rate than when I ceased racing the birds. To me this goes to show that a loft can continue to reproduce the quality bird for years and years if a system is devised that controls the sex genes of our progeny.

 

In conclusion, let me state that I believe that every fancier should try and understand the genetic drift of the racing pigeon, by the signs in the eye. It is easily understandable by most people who have come into contact with eye specialists like myself, who are willing to divulge what they have gathered over a lifetime of study and practice on the subject.

 

The subject will always remain controversial, until the world evolves a little more. Biologists and Scientists are progressing immensely on the subject with humans, whereas most pigeon geneticists and breeders of pigeons in general, are not aware of how the world is changing around us. As I have stated, this is just a forward to a paper I am writing, which will be dated, and will not be made public while I am still alive. The reason being I am not prepared to go through the insults and fighting to defend what I have written. The contents will be either used to advantage or thrown in the trash can as people will no longer be able to have a piece of Jack Barkel.

 

May I say, that my health has improved so much recently that I feel I can live till I am ninety. So I am not contemplating leaving any time soon.

 

 

 

[Guest gladdo]

jack fair play i aint arguing with you so tell me this jack ...say if you breed 2 youngsters mate ???? if they have the right eye signs would you put it straight to stock ... if it has the wrong eye sign what you believe is right would you put this bird in the bin ???? honest question here jack ...mikey , dublin , ireland ....

[Guest Owen]

Sorry that you think that a discussion is senseless, Jack. And I will not take up too much of your time in reading about my point of view.

I still say that it is nonsense. The proper way to select livestock remains the same. Breed from proven performers, select the young on the basis of health and test thoroughly. The only way forward is through progeny testing and that will not change.

People have been mislead for years by believing in the short cut way to success. It has never existed and never will.

By the way why are'nt you winning Nationals regularly, and selling the birds from really good money. If your ideas worked you would be a very rich man by now.

[Guest gladdo]

jack dont think we going against you on this mate but owen seriously has a point there or are you winning nationals or have you not seen the dream eyes yet mate ? mikey ( dublin, ireland ) just asking buddy ...mikey

[BLACK W F]

in my racers i prefer 2 eyes   not so bothered in stock loft  as long as they produce birds to score

[Jack Barkel]

Hello Mikey,

 

If they have top eye sign I would put them straight to stock, if the eye sign was not so good I would race them out. Even if such a bird excelled in the races I would not contemplate putting it in the stock loft.

 

Many winners put in the stock loft only breed mediocre birds, this also can be acertained by eye sign instead of wasting years beeding off mediocre breeders.

 

I hope this answers your question Mikey.

 

Regards

Jack

[WulDon]

pair winner to winner, and breeders of winners together and i would say the success rate would be alot higher than fannying around with an eyesign glass... only my opinion but one i reckon would be backed by plenty successful lofts throughout the UK and worldwide for that matter.

[Guest gladdo]

i see mate very nice to learn about this sort of stuff...so if you have a bird that has a nice eye and keeps breeding birds with a nice eye how do you get to race them birds ?????? just asking jack thanks for answering my question in a very respectful manner ...mikey

[Guest Davy Fleming]

Never claimed to know much about eye sign but would bred very interested to know if No 5 has bred anything as think it is exceptional

[Guest gladdo]

jack could you tell us if any of the birds above have the dream eye you would look for...you dont have to say which ones if you dont want to ...just curious mikey .... jack ??????????

[Jack Barkel]

Yes I have won a National, I have also bred the best racing bird in a season for the whole of South Africa. Although I have not raced for several years I am still constantly breeding racer breeders for others.

 

Sorry my records never rteached Ireland.

 

Regards

 

Jack

[DUBLINFLYER]

this tread started off by mick for abit off fun, he was nice enough to offer a pair of well bred young birds as a prize, now i'm not being funny or anything but for those of you that dont want to join in "in the fun that is" then butt out, this tread is now ruinned on mick bowler, if you didnt want to participate then you should have never made any comments :X :-/ this is just my opinion... but for god sake it was meant to be for fun nothing less nothing more :X

 

sorry your tread is ruinned by one individual trying to make his point mick

[Jack Barkel]

Sorry to say none of them would be good enough for my stock loft, the only one that comes close is No 1.

 

Jack

[Jack Barkel]

I agree Dublin Flyer, it is a bit of fun, a game that many will enjoy, however the dignity of some people were attacked instead of leaving it as a game. I will not comment anymore for at 73 years of age I have learned that my wisdom on the subject will be attacked and rejected by many. Sorry I intruded after my name was mentiond and after I was PMd to give an opinion.

Jack Barkel

[Guest gladdo]

ok jack not oe to blame here...yes he agve his opinion as he was asked ...mick bowler im sorry for dragging it on when i should have done it somewhere else...enjoy the rest of game all...mikey

[DUBLINFLYER]

I agree Dublin Flyer, it is a bit of fun, a game that many will enjoy, however the dignity of some people were attacked instead of leaving it as a game. I will not comment anymore for at 73 years of age I have learned that my wisdom on the subject will be attacked and rejected by many. Sorry I intruded after my name was mentiond and after I was PMd to give an opinion.

Jack Barkel

 

i have nothing but respect for you i have read all your articles with huge interest

[Guest gladdo]

ok 1 and 10 for me .....mikey ...ill stick with jack on 1 !!!!

[Guest mick bowler]

this tread started off by mick for abit off fun, he was nice enough to offer a pair of well bred young birds as a prize, now i'm not being funny or anything but for those of you that dont want to join in "in the fun that is" then butt out, this tread is now ruinned on mick bowler, if you didnt want to participate then you should have never made any comments :X :-/ this is just my opinion... but for god sake it was meant to be for fun nothing less nothing more :X

 

sorry your tread is ruinned by one individual trying to make his point mick

 

Your kind of right mate. It was not really for fun nor a game. The one thing i did not want was a debate on the success or perils of eyesign. It was aimed at those who were interested in eyesign to pick there eyes (and reasons why), and give me some sort of pointer to what might be worth a go. Amongst the eyes were some good racers (to national level) as well as YBs from very good breeding lines. NONE had been proven in the breeding stakes, so i suppose it was a gamble.

 

One man picked out everything almost spot on even the fact that two were nestmates and 5 were related. Originally he picked out what he thought was a very good breeding eye. But i manged to get some better pics and he then withdrew that and basically said what Jack did above, none were suitable for stock, based on eyesign.

 

It is something i have never been interested in til the last few months, and there are good reasons for that! Having read above what Jack posted about those that think they know, is what my conclusion is. Plenty think, very few actually know. I would never be brave enought to bin top performers because their eyesign is not good enough for breeding, but its is going to become part of my breeding programme, not just as selection but on pairing too.

 

 

[Guest]

You are wrong my friend, a racing pigeon was designed by humans, and the variations in many of the genes manifest themselves in the eye.

 

They evolved  or degenerated through pigeon fanciers.

 

You know nothing about the eye either in humans, dogs, pigeons or horses, which are the designs of humans. Go back to the school that proves me wrong by your statements and see what they have learned about the subject since then.

 

You are entittled to your opinions, but in my opinion they do not hold water.

 

Jack Barkel

Not sure who's oponions you were commented above?  If your commenting on mine I can debate all day on the efficacy of scientific value and the hard fact there is no scientific value to eyesign and doubt if there ever will be.   You haven't been proven right to be proven wrong which is my point.  You show me an ounce of impartial scientific evidence to support the eyesign theory and I'd be happy to reconsider my views until then there's just as much credability given to the statement that woodpeckers have rubber lips.   :-/  

 

 

[fancypigeon_88]

4 an 8 for me