Pros & Cons of Medicating

[OLDYELLOW]

 

hi mark..one of the main advice given is when you suspect that you have pmv to vaccinate all healthy birds ,this is even if you have vaccinated already.

there is growing concern amongst fanciers the pmv vaccine isnt strong enough ..as there are countless reports of paramyxo appearing even when birds have been vaccinated.

 

paul from newport is a witness to this because i had advised him that the illness his birds had, could possibly be pmv...which i did believe it was...this was verified by the vet.

now his birds were vaccinated.

loads of cases of suspected pmv ,but without the head twisting.

now i get pm,d about this on here and on p/chat...more than anything else.

also i remember recently when colombovac stopped the production of the vaccine.

was there evidence of pmv getting stronger? weaker?..or mutating?..is there a cover up..we wont find out...either way.

i did read an article written by a very well respected vet stating that when pmv is about the kidneys can be affected thus shedding the watery droppings with the string like formation.

i do believe that pmv is about more than fanciers would care to admit ,and by doing so they are masking the true size of the problem.

also paratyphoid is on the increase...which one pigeon doctor in belgium believes that its a rare loft that doesnt have carriers of this dreadful illness.

 

 

i have to agree with paramixo been ineffective the reason for this is overdosing and exposing the bird to it on a on going bases which in itself creates resistant strains so what is needed is where outbreaks have taken place is to issolate it and create a new vaccine rather than continue with a vaccine that doesnt work

[Roland]

With reference to Samonella / Phara etc. This is an extract from Alberta. One of interest I feel. Yes it is just one post of very many where a few other Vets / Doctors share views and recorded findings. Quote:

 

These organisms, once inside the body, can disseminate and cause abscesses in any organ. It can be observed as "wing boils" due to an abscess in usually the "elbow" joint, limping due to an abscess in one of the leg joints, or loss of balance similar to PMV due to an abscess in the brain.

Regarding the carrier state, here is what Dr Gordon Chambers wrote:

Quote:Like other birds and animals, most pigeons exposed to paratyphoid infection recover completely, either through treatment or natural defensive mechanisms, but as in the case of other species of birds and animals, the occasional bird is unable to clear the infection, and becomes a permanent carrier. As Dr Dorrenstein points out, it is still not known just where the paratyphoid organisms hide in the body of a carrier, but he suggests that this hiding place could be within certain patrolling defensive cells called macrophages where they are protected from the immune system. (Note: "macro"means "large"; "phage" is from the Greek word "phagein", meaning "to eat"-- hence, these are large, mobile defensive cells that engulf foreign material, such as invading bacteria, parasites, yeasts etc..) It is obvious that not all engulfed foreign invaders are killed by these large cells, but in some way, the invaders remain alive and isolated within the cells that engulfed them, and here they are protected from other defensive mechanisms in the body. As a result, during periods of stress, the immune system becomes depressed and less vigilant, as a result of which, the paratyphoid organisms can escape from their hidden locations. Once they have escaped, they begin to multiply and then to be shed in droppings from which they are readily spread to other susceptible birds in the loft.

 

If they do, in fact, hide inside macrophages, it seems to be impossible to eliminate the carrier state. ?:

The use of antibiotics in a deby loft is also problematic since most pathogens are probably present in some birds. Antibiotics hurt the birds that are immune to the problem and is it not those birds which we want to select for? Should we hurt those birds that were managed in a desirable way just to perhaps treat those birds from lofts where adequate care was lacking?

I see vitality and health as one of the most important qualities of a racing pigeon.

End of copy.

[dwh]

what happen if you vaccinate and the bids ave pmv do they ave bad reactions?

[Guest strapper]

what happen if you vaccinate and the bids ave pmv do they ave bad reactions?

 

dont vaccinate birds that show signs of illness.

when pmv is suspected,remove all ill birds and vaccinate the healthy looking ones.

[Guest strapper]

this is an article written by dr david marx..usa,s top vet.

 

a while back i stated about using a soonful of bleach in the drinker...sounds silly but read this.

he also talks about chlorine.

 

The "Miricle" Of Chlorine

 

  

The addition of common household bleach to the drinking water does, indeed, have beneficial effects on pigeon health.

 

This seems a little weird since the drinking of cholrinated water has negative implications in human health, especially with suggestions that it may be incriminated in the increased rate of cancer.

 

Chlorine is a strong chemical which binds to most organic molecules and can change their chemical identity, making some non-toxic compounds become toxic.

 

Personally, I use a filter on my drinking water which removes chlorine; but my pigeons drink a lot of it with what I percieve as beneficial effects. NEVER PUT ANYTHING ELSE IN THE DRINKING WATER AT THE SAME TIME AS CHLORINE.

 

The ususal method of treating the drinking water is to add 1 to 2 teaspoonsful of common household bleach, such as Clorox or Purex, to each gallon of water. The amount varies depending on the temperature. When it is hot the chlorine leaves the water faster, so use more; when it is cold, it leaves the water slowly so use less.

 

Chlorine is a very strong disinfectant and keeps the water-transmission of disease organisms to a minimum. Most diseases of pigeons can be spread via the drinking water, so the judicious use of a disinfectant can prevent some of the things that our pigeons may be exposed to.

 

There may be a hidden benefit as well: the increased consumption of chlorine, which in turn is eliminated by the kidneys, produces a more acid urine. The urine is excreted along with the feces.(it is the white cap on the feces) This net result is a more acidic dropping. Salmonella, and other bacteria, dislikes an acidic environment.

 

This may decrease the environmental proliferation of the bacteria, making it less likely for pigeons to contract an infective dose. This is theory, and not proven scientific fact, so thake it for what it is worth. I have given it a lot of thought and concluded that this is why lofts that deal with paratyphoid do better after treatment, if the birds are kept on this chlorinated water.

 

I handled convention race birds this last spring/summer. The only thing that I did for the birds was to keep them on chlorinated water. Mine was the only loft that experienced no sick pigeons. Is that coincidence? I think it probably isn't.

 

I also theorize that drinking this chlorinated water has a negative influence on the trichomonads in the oral cavity. I need to do some simple research to confirm this but, in my mind, it should have some effect on the numbers of these organisms. It at least will minimize the water transmission of trichomonas; and this is the main route of spread.

 

Remember: NEVER PUT ANYTHING ELSE IN THE WATER AT THE SAME TIME AS CHLORINE. IT WILL PROBABLY NEUTRALIZE THESE COMPOUNDS OR RENDER THEM TOXIC TO THE BIRDS . When wanting to give vitamins or a treatment for coccicia, worms, or trichomonas, etc., simply leave out the chlorine for those days and then resume when the dosing is completed.

 

Household bleach should not be considered a treatment, but only a preventive measure.

 

Dr. David E. Marx D.V.M.

 

 

  

 

 

[Roland]

Another smidgen I believe many fail to take note of is Baytril (enrofloxacin) that has the possibility of eliminating the carrier state. At one time 10 days at regular dosage was recommended for the cure. Now, several recommend 14 days.  Now norfloxacin (Parastop, Pantex Holland) I had read also has the possibility of eliminating the carrier state, but I haven't seen this claim from a Vet. Kinney wrote in his book that Cipro is the "other" Baytril. As I recall all three drugs are in the same "family" of drugs. But I could be wrong on that as I am speaking from memory. I know that Baytril has been overused to the point that some strains of salmonella are now resistant to it. These days, like Owen does to an extent also  to ensure that, 1) treatment is needed, and 2) that one is using the right product to do the job. Just vaccinating for paratyphoid :-/ but even that is not always 100%.

[Guest strapper]

dont use baytril when birds are breeding better to use amoxicillin...baytril is to be used when all else fails.

[Guest strapper]

gotta say..one of the best debates ive seen for a long while on basics.

[jimmy white]

gotta say..one of the best debates ive seen for a long while on basics.

 

got to agree on that one,, great informative thread

[Roland]

From Doctor Karl – Alberta again

‘ ……………… I do not think that antibiotic treatment is a possibility as I specified that the only drug they may get is the growth promoter BMD. It is not absorbed. Here is the kind of birds I would prefer not to get shipped to me:

 

Then Candido wrote' .......

ortunately all the pigeons coexist with salmonella....their natural defenses usually get rid of it . However, sometimes it's not enough and the disease appears. Just like we know it can reveals on faeces (intestinal system), on nervous system or on articulations....

Enrofloxacin seems indeed the best substance to fight it (it has a different way of acting - it acts on cells level...). 10/12 days of treatment should be enough....

 

Vaccine it's not a convincent treatment (one knows that there are no efficient vaccines agains bacteries so...vaccinating is a way of giving pigeons more "salmonellas" on the end of it "immunity"....

 

I vote for a vigorous system and a oustanding health.............

 

Which Karl replied as such....

That gets my vote also, Candido!

We all too often look at various bacteria as adversaries which we have to [size=big'>KILL!!!

It is our inclination to roll out the big guns and blast these things to smitherines ...

An alternative way would be to improve the living conditions of our pigeons to the point where they are strong enough to fight any pathogens. There may be the odd pigeon who is too weak but who really needs such a bird at any rate?

These pathogens may actually do us a favor by eliminating these weaklings.

 

[Roland]

Could the problem not be simply fireworks going off ?

;D ;D ;D

Yes as I posted earlier. Plus moving / disturbing their routine, tempreture / change of feed, and countless other things.

But then of course reaching for the 'Botle / Med Cabinet' causes a whole can worms to develope.

 

 

[Guest strapper]

;D ;D ;D

Yes as I posted earlier. Plus moving / disturbing their routine, tempreture / change of feed, and countless other things.

But then of course reaching for the 'Botle / Med Cabinet' causes a whole can worms to develope.

 

 

roland i dont anyone in the know of medications would jump to a knee jerk reaction because watery droppings appear...it would be based on continued watery droppings which i believe is the case of this thread.

 

this is what the fancier asked

One of my birds has really watery droppings.  What do I treat for ?  They have been on antibiotics recently,  the only thing I havent done really is worm them,  could it be worms ?

so he has tried antibiotics...so it shows this has been happening for a while.

[Guest j.bamling]

continued Watery droppings could also be caused by the feeding a lack of protein when moulting,breeding etc is a prime example !!

a big % of pigeon ailments are because the pigeon is lacking in something its just finding out whats missing is sometimes the hard part ,How many lofts have problems and send swabs and droppings away only for them to come back negative and instead of looking at the bigger picture they say the Lab is useless and treat with an antibiotic anyway !!! theres hundreds of things could cause wet droppings without the bird being unhealthy !!

Just my opinion

[Guest strapper]

continued Watery droppings could also be caused by the feeding a lack of protein when moulting,breeding etc is a prime example !!

a big % of pigeon ailments are because the pigeon is lacking in something its just finding out whats missing is sometimes the hard part ,How many lofts have problems and send swabs and droppings away only for them to come back negative and instead of looking at the bigger picture they say the Lab is useless and treat with an antibiotic anyway !!! theres hundreds of things could cause wet droppings without the bird being unhealthy !!

Just my opinion

 

yes you are right about watery droppings but in the same breath as you state there could be hundreds of things could cause wet droppings without being unhealthy...theres also a load that could be unhealthy.

the thread says watery not wet...there is a difference.

watery droppings show there is an unbalance in the stomach of the bird.

this may of course be anything...but anything could well be a disease.

caution should always be your 1st option...but not jumping into the medication cabinet.

there are other signs that the bird can be not well ..ruffled feathers/blinking eyes/movement/and signs in the throat...also colour of the droppings.

experience with this type of problem helps,as you determin faster what action to take...if any action is to be taken.

 

 

 

 

 

[OLDYELLOW]

From Doctor Karl – Alberta again

‘ ……………… I do not think that antibiotic treatment is a possibility as I specified that the only drug they may get is the growth promoter BMD. It is not absorbed. Here is the kind of birds I would prefer not to get shipped to me:

 

Then Candido wrote' .......

ortunately all the pigeons coexist with salmonella....their natural defenses usually get rid of it . However, sometimes it's not enough and the disease appears. Just like we know it can reveals on faeces (intestinal system), on nervous system or on articulations....

Enrofloxacin seems indeed the best substance to fight it (it has a different way of acting - it acts on cells level...). 10/12 days of treatment should be enough....

 

Vaccine it's not a convincent treatment (one knows that there are no efficient vaccines agains bacteries so...vaccinating is a way of giving pigeons more "salmonellas" on the end of it "immunity"....

 

I vote for a vigorous system and a oustanding health.............

 

Which Karl replied as such....

That gets my vote also, Candido!

We all too often look at various bacteria as adversaries which we have to [size=big'>KILL!!!

It is our inclination to roll out the big guns and blast these things to smitherines ...

An alternative way would be to improve the living conditions of our pigeons to the point where they are strong enough to fight any pathogens. There may be the odd pigeon who is too weak but who really needs such a bird at any rate?

These pathogens may actually do us a favor by eliminating these weaklings.

 

seems the last bit makes perfect sense to me

[Guest IB]

With reference to Samonella / Phara etc. This is an extract from Alberta. One of interest I feel. Yes it is just one post of very many where a few other Vets / Doctors share views and recorded findings. Quote:

 

These organisms, once inside the body, can disseminate and cause abscesses in any organ. It can be observed as "wing boils" due to an abscess in usually the "elbow" joint, limping due to an abscess in one of the leg joints, or loss of balance similar to PMV due to an abscess in the brain.

Regarding the carrier state, here is what Dr Gordon Chambers wrote:

Quote:Like other birds and animals, most pigeons exposed to paratyphoid infection recover completely, either through treatment or natural defensive mechanisms, but as in the case of other species of birds and animals, the occasional bird is unable to clear the infection, and becomes a permanent carrier. As Dr Dorrenstein points out, it is still not known just where the paratyphoid organisms hide in the body of a carrier, but he suggests that this hiding place could be within certain patrolling defensive cells called macrophages where they are protected from the immune system. (Note: "macro"means "large"; "phage" is from the Greek word "phagein", meaning "to eat"-- hence, these are large, mobile defensive cells that engulf foreign material, such as invading bacteria, parasites, yeasts etc..) It is obvious that not all engulfed foreign invaders are killed by these large cells, but in some way, the invaders remain alive and isolated within the cells that engulfed them, and here they are protected from other defensive mechanisms in the body. As a result, during periods of stress, the immune system becomes depressed and less vigilant, as a result of which, the paratyphoid organisms can escape from their hidden locations. Once they have escaped, they begin to multiply and then to be shed in droppings from which they are readily spread to other susceptible birds in the loft.

 

If they do, in fact, hide inside macrophages, it seems to be impossible to eliminate the carrier state. ?:

The use of antibiotics in a deby loft is also problematic since most pathogens are probably present in some birds. Antibiotics hurt the birds that are immune to the problem and is it not those birds which we want to select for? Should we hurt those birds that were managed in a desirable way just to perhaps treat those birds from lofts where adequate care was lacking?

I see vitality and health as one of the most important qualities of a racing pigeon.

End of copy.

 

I did mention the bit about macrophages and salmonella to you before, but you claimed not only did I not know what I was talking about, but you didn't know what I was talking about either. Macrophages are immune system ‘white blood cells’ that eat invaders. Research has shown that salmonella can survive inside the macrophage. The bother seems to be that salmonella needs to get inside a cell before it can do damage to the body. While its in the gut lumen amongst the undigested stuff, its harmless, then along comes Mr Macrophage and gobbles it up. The macrophage then goes through the gut protective wall, carrying live salmonella inside it; once over the barrier, the macrophage presents itself to another member of the immune system, the Natural Killer [NK] cell, and says 'I'm infected, kill me’ which it does. Researchers reckoned it only needed 5 salmonella bacteria to survive this process, to start an infection. Luckily, this is just the 1st line immune defense, there's a lot more waiting in store for these bacteria...

 

And I did say that I would contact Scottish Agricultural College [sAC] regarding salmonella in racing pigeons. Data isn't current but this is what Tom Pennycote said:-

 

Hi Ian

We don't test as many pigeon samples as we used to, but between 1992 and 1993 we tested 308 samples from racing pigeons, of which 12 (4%) were positive for

salmonella.

 

I have put a copy of a paper on salmonella in wild birds (including feral pigeons)

in the post to you.

Regards

Tom

 

12 pigeons out of 308 isn’t an epidemic, far from it, and 4% is nothing near '99% of all pigeons are infected' as is claimed here and elsewhere, one set of figures based on fact, the other on fanciful fiction.

[Guest IB]

A Lactobacillus acidophilus Strain of Human Gastrointestinal

Microbiota Origin Elicits Killing of Enterovirulent Salmonella

enterica Serovar Typhimurium by Triggering Lethal Bacterial Membrane Damage

 

Marie-He´le`ne Coconnier-Polter, Vanessa Lie´vin-Le Moal, and Alain L. Servin*

Institut National de la Sante´ et de la Recherche Me´dicale, Unite´ 510, Pathoge`nes et Fonctions des Cellules Epithe´liales Polarise´es, Faculte´ de Pharmacie, Universite´ Paris XI, F-92296 Cha¯tenay-Malabry, France

 

Received 15 March 2005/Accepted 27 May 2005

 

 

One of the defense mechanisms by which a host species combats gastrointestinal microbial pathogens is a first line of chemical defense involving the production of antimicrobial peptides (AMPs) by the epithelial cells lining the gut epithelium. Together with this chemical system of defense of the host cells, one of the basic physiological functions of the resident intestinal microbiota is that it acts as a microbial barrier against microbial pathogens. There is increasing evidence that the antibacterial activities of the lactobacilli that are part of the human gastrointestinal microbiota involve numerous mechanisms of action, including the production of H2O2, metabolites, and antimicrobial substances, including bacteriocins and nonbacteriocin molecules. Some Lactobacillus strains, including Lactobacillus johnsonii La1, L. rhamnosus GG, L. rhamnosus DR20 L. rhamnosus GR-1, and L. fermentum RC-14 , have been reported to produce antimicrobial activities. Little is known about the antibacterial mechanism(s) of action of nonbacteriocin molecules produced by Lactobacillus strains originating from the human

intestinal microbiota. We decided to investigate the mechanism(s) by which Lactobacillus strains kill Salmonella enterica  serovar Typhimurium (S. enterica SL1344).

 

As a test strain, we chose L. acidophilus strain LB, a strain of human microbiota origin that has antagonistic activities against gram-negative enterovirulent pathogens. In the cell-free culture supernatant (LB-CFCS), this strain produces a non-lactic-acid, nonbacteriocin molecule(s) with a low molecular mass which is heat stable and partially resistant to proteolytic enzymes and which exerts a rapid and dramatic killing activity against S. enterica SL1344. Moreover, LB-CFCS treatment results in the killing of S. enterica SL1344 cells located within infected cultured human intestinal cells. We provide evidence suggesting that the mechanism of action involving bacterial membrane damage is lethal to Salmonella. This conclusion is based on data showing that exposing S. enterica SL1344 to LB-CFCS promotes (i) the depletion of intracellular ATP, (ii) an increase in membrane permeabilization, (iii) the release of lipopolysaccharide (LPS) from the bacterial membrane, and (iv) sensitization of the bacterial membrane towards the lytic action of detergent.

 

http://aem.asm.org/cgi/reprint/71/10/6115.pdf

 

 

[bruno1]

This was a topic which was part of the 'watery droppings' thread and judging by the number of posts, warranted a thread of its own.