Pros & Cons of Medicating

[Guest JonesyBhoy]

No probs mate

[holmsidelofts]

 

I AM  not interested in this arguement in any way but adding Bicarbonate of soda to water and allowing the birds to drink it cannot produce ammonia. It is incorrect to say that it does.There is no Nitrogen present in Bicarb and it cannot form Ammonia.

Just posting to correct this innacuracy

 

Sorry mate check you facts. that is how bicarbonate of soda is made thats from a scientific journal and can be found online if you do some research. Look up bicarbonate of soda on wikipedia for one. As stated the common process of making bicarb is with that method.

Do some research before you comment on something you obviously no nothing about.

Ammonia is used in the production of bicarbonate of soda so nitrogen would have been present to be able to produce the ammonia in the first place.

 

basic science my friend.

 

[Guest strapper]

Im with Walterbmasson on this one.. all these old remedies have been used for years, and obviously do the birds no harm..

 

Doo men having been racing and winning with these methods for well over a hundred years..

 

Is it maybe coincidental that since vets have become highly used in this sport that the sport has been in major decline. As the old survival of the fittest method has been binned by the vets. If there's no ill pigeons they don't have a job..!!

 

it may also be said that since vets have been on the scene they have protected fanciers birds who get into contact with infected birds from fanciers who dont medicate or visit vets, and send birds that are possibly ill.

 

 

 

[Guest Owen]

kev d

I am very happy to live and let live. If anyone wants to carry on doing what ever they think is right, then so be it. I draw a line at someone trying to discredit what is the correct way of dealing with health problems. All I have said and will say is as follows.

Rather than guess at what could be wrong when the birds display worrying syptoms. i.e. wet droppings. Get them checked out properly so that the guessing is over and you work from a position of knowledge. Then when you medicate you will be using the correct treatment. And more importantly, treating at the right strength and for the proper length of time. Therefore avoiding building up immunity in the bugs causing yourself and everybody else problems.

To the suporters of the old fashioned treatments, I would say, yes use them by all means. But for goodness sake at least test the birds before and after the treatments. Before, to be sure that the birds have actually got what you are treating for, and after, to make certain you have cleared up the problem. If you are not prepared to do this you have no right to advise others to use things that may be a waste of time. Time when the birds could be getting worse.

And to walterbmasson I would ask you to keep your voice down. I can hear you shouting from here.

  

[Guest strapper]

just for info  and to clear up what has already been stated....

 

NaHCO3 is mainly prepared by the Solvay process, which is the reaction of calcium carbonate, sodium chloride, ammonia, and carbon dioxide in water. It is produced on the scale of about 100,000 ton/year (as of 2001).[2]

 

NaHCO3 may be obtained by the reaction of carbon dioxide with an aqueous solution of sodium hydroxide. The initial reaction produces sodium carbonate:

 

CO2 + 2 NaOH → Na2CO3 + H2O

Further addition of carbon dioxide produces sodium bicarbonate, which at sufficiently high concentration will precipitate out of solution:

 

Na2CO3 + CO2 + H2O → 2 NaHCO3

Commercial quantities of baking soda are also produced by a similar method: soda ash, mined in the form of the ore trona, is dissolved in water and treated with carbon dioxide. Sodium bicarbonate precipitates as a solid from this method:

 

Na2CO3 + CO2 + H2O → 2 NaHCO3

 

 

[Guest JonesyBhoy]

Im not disputing that..

 

All im saying is illness within pigeons is not a new thing.. so what did the fanciers of the 30s 40s 50s 60s 70s do..?? When pigeon racing seemed to be flourishing and they were winning with velocities that are as good if not better than today

 

Its just a personal opinion.. but instead of running to a vet, if a pigeon is ill and after a couple of days shows no sign on improving.. nut it and forget about..

 

How often do your read top fanciers when talking of there champions quote. '' he/she has never had a day ill ''

 

Back to survival of the fittest

[walterbmasson]

 

THERE SHOULD BE A BASKETING COMMITEE IN EVERY CLUB TO CHECK BIRDS OUR CLUB HAS ALWAYS HAD ONE IF THERE IS A BIRD THATS REALLY ILL BREADING SHOULD NOT COME INTO IT THE BIRD SHOULD BE DISPOSED OFF

[Guest strapper]

Im not disputing that..

 

All im saying is illness within pigeons is not a new thing.. so what did the fanciers of the 30s 40s 50s 60s 70s do..?? When pigeon racing seemed to be flourishing and they were winning with velocities that are as good if not better than today

 

Its just a personal opinion.. but instead of running to a vet, if a pigeon is ill and after a couple of days shows no sign on improving.. nut it and forget about..

 

How often do your read top fanciers when talking of there champions quote. '' he/she has never had a day ill ''

 

Back to survival of the fittest

 

i understand where your coming from but diseases mutate from smaller ones into bigger ones...its called evolution.

we didnt have aeroplanes 600 years ago but the people still got around to other countries by boats.

diseases can lay dormant for many years and then one day re-appear ,strike then dissapears again for many years after.

[Guest Owen]

JonesyBhoy

I totally agree with you when you say that we should not be keeping birds that have to be mended up all the time. Like you I am looking for fit athletes that can do the job. And I do not and will not go running off to the Vet every other week.

But like Jason said, I have a health plan in place that takes care of most of the health issues. I vaccinate twice a year for paramixo and also for paratyphoid. After that I keep a check on the more run of the mill issues that they might get. I do this by using my microscope.

If I find a bird that gets ill a lot it is gone. And at the end of the year I clear out those that have'nt performed. Cocks that have not won anything are never bred from so that I have a better chance of breeding healthy youngsters. And because I only fly widowhood cocks the hens must fly the full young bird programme. Then as you will realise, I always have a surplus of hens each year. I only keep the best, the rest are gone. So in short, although I use modern methods of health management, there is nothing soft about the demands I put on the birds. I only want the naturally fit and healthy at the end of the day. And I will always want to know what the real condition of the birds is at any one time. Not play silly guessing games.

[holmsidelofts]

Im not disputing that..

 

All im saying is illness within pigeons is not a new thing.. so what did the fanciers of the 30s 40s 50s 60s 70s do..?? When pigeon racing seemed to be flourishing and they were winning with velocities that are as good if not better than today

 

Its just a personal opinion.. but instead of running to a vet, if a pigeon is ill and after a couple of days shows no sign on improving.. nut it and forget about..

 

How often do your read top fanciers when talking of there champions quote. '' he/she has never had a day ill ''

 

Back to survival of the fittest

 

I wont argue with that but in the 30's and 40's etc there werent feds sending 30,000 pigeons a time, there was not the issue of clashing like there is now the birds werent as exposed to disease as they are now. there were not mobile phone masts and all the airports and military stuff as there is now, so its impossible to compare what happened 50 years ago to modern time, If it wasnt for the advances in medical improvements i really dont think we would be having this conversation as there wouldnt be a sport. for all of you who had the misfortune to have contracted PMV in the 80's you now how thankful we now are for PMV vaccine.

 

 

 

[walterbmasson]

 

JONESYBHOY IF A BIRD HAS NO CONSTUTION ITS BETTR IN THE BIN AS THE ONLY THING YOUR LEFT WITH IS A BUNCH OF WEAKLINGS JIM DONALDSON DOSENT KILL A BIRD HE JUST PAYS £2 50P AND 600MILES

[Guest strapper]

I live in the west midlands,  Davy Fleming.  Thanks for all the comments everyone I will take all on board in the future.  Unfortunately after having a good look at all my birds earlier I decided that I wasnt gonna take any chances and got rid of the bird in question along with another one in the hens loft.  A hard decision but Wasnt gonna ruin my breeding for next year,  Ive put too much time and effort in over the last few months and am looking for ward to racing next year.

 

best of luck next year davy m8...

[Guest JonesyBhoy]

I think we can just agree to dis - agree.. Whats good for one fancier may not suit another..

 

 

[Guest strapper]

I think we can just agree to dis - agree.. Whats good for one fancier may not suit another..

 

 

true m8..there are many roads to rome.

[Guest JonesyBhoy]

Indeed.. and thats an awesome book..

 

Infact i was just reading it the other night.. it was wrote around 95.. i think.. would be good if he done another visting the same fanciers and seeing how there methods then compare now nearly 15 years on

[holmsidelofts]

 

true m8..there are many roads to rome.

 

Agreed also. Its up to everyone what they do. All we can do is the right thing.

Good luck to all this coming season.

Breedings just around the corner, cant wait!

 

[naedoos]

JonesyBhoy

I totally agree with you when you say that we should not be keeping birds that have to be mended up all the time. Like you I am looking for fit athletes that can do the job. And I do not and will not go running off to the Vet every other week.

But like Jason said, I have a health plan in place that takes care of most of the health issues. I vaccinate twice a year for paramixo and also for paratyphoid. After that I keep a check on the more run of the mill issues that they might get. I do this by using my microscope.

If I find a bird that gets ill a lot it is gone. And at the end of the year I clear out those that have'nt performed. Cocks that have not won anything are never bred from so that I have a better chance of breeding healthy youngsters. And because I only fly widowhood cocks the hens must fly the full young bird programme. Then as you will realise, I always have a surplus of hens each year. I only keep the best, the rest are gone. So in short, although I use modern methods of health management, there is nothing soft about the demands I put on the birds. I only want the naturally fit and healthy at the end of the day. And I will always want to know what the real condition of the birds is at any one time. Not play silly guessing games.

 

Been watching the post with interest as I'm undecided but open minded, but this looks like a bit of a contradiction to me  

[Guest strapper]

medications are there for the benefit of pigeons when they are ill!..you abuse them then this can lead to complications.

there is this big theory amongst some fanciers that medications are killing the imune system!..they are not!..fanciers who abuse medications are killing the imune system.there is a massive difference.!

 

there are many different medications on the market to help with the birds but there are many natural products on the market that are as much use as an handbrake on a canoe!

most natural products on the market are little help to pigeons when they are unfortunate to become ill...and all birds can become ill wether they have a strong imune system or not.

do not be mistaken... a strong imune system will only defend the bird from an illness for so long

it will not stop that illness forever.

if the world top lab scientists believed that a natural imune system would stop humans getting diseases, why do they insist on vaccinations...especially with the swine flu jab?

do not underestimate the importance of using medications in the sport,CORRECTLY!

some fanciers believe we/all.. that use these medications are constantly using them....which is ignorance and totally distant from the truth!

too many jump to this conclusion without knowing anything about these fanciers and tar us all with the same brush!

referring to bi-carb..this is a very useful product for stopping bad/upset stomach in humans and will in theory stop the runs...but it wont cure diseases in the stomach which can also cause the runs.

i see boths sides of the arguement in this thread that has occured over the syptoms referred too.

but as i just explained...there is only thing that will cure a disease and its through medications.

wether you choose to do away with birds that become ill in your loft or not...that is entirely up to yourself.

so think of this...last year i treated all my racebirds with medications for one thing or the other...this year in youngbirds...i did not have any problems with them even though club members had youngbird sickness and my birds had mixed with them,so the theory of medicating birds is killing the imune system is in my opinion way off the mark...its the abuse of medications that is killing the system.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[dwh]

spot on yet fanciers abusing the use of medication are  winning and winning out of turn is that form induced by medication?

[Guest strapper]

spot on yet fanciers abusing the use of medication are  winning and winning out of turn is that form induced by medication?

 

this is a theory that can be squashed straight away....as in athletics there has never been or never will be a medication to make you run or fly faster....it will only maintain a fitness level which occurs naturally.

there can be muscle building products which only will make you stronger,but this can also occur naturally with the right training.

so speed cannot be achieved by medication only the fitness of the person or bird or animal.

 

hard work and medication to maintain fitness maybe the reason why as you say they win out of turn...but it may also be that they are good fanciers and would score that way anyhow.

fitness is the key.

[dwh]

drugs are available which actually do stimulate the body and allow the athlete  to train harder and longer making them physically stronger nad faster so are there none available to the fancy ?and if not why was there such an outcry about cortscosteroid eyedrops yet in your opinion performance enhancing drugs do not work? then why is common cold remedies banned from use is it because certain chemicals in the medication are performance enhancing

[Guest strapper]

drugs are available which actually do stimulate the body and allow the athlete  to train harder and longer making them physically stronger nad faster so are there none available to the fancy ?and if not why was there such an outcry about cortscosteroid eyedrops yet in your opinion performance enhancing drugs do not work? then why is common cold remedies banned from use is it because certain chemicals in the medication are performance enhancing

 

performance enhancing...means that you can perform better..its doesnt mean that you can become faster then you could possibly be..theres a saying......you cant get out what god didnt put in!..

as i said ...the speed you can run at is what you can run at...wether you dont achieve it its up to you...but you cant do something thats physicly impossible.

the items you mention are there to maintain fitness that normally/naturally you cannot maintain..but you can possibly achieve! through taking drugs...i didnt say performance enhancing drugs dont work..what i said is what they make you achieve is what you could do anyhow...there is a difference.

 

drugs make you perform at the best of your ability..

[Guest strapper]

good debate  this strapper these drugs allow you to perfom beyond your natural ability without them the body would not attain the mighty heights of stardom

don't delay with your reply very interesting

 

as i said earlier these fanciers which was the debate was about ,could achieve these results naturally if went about it the right way...but drugs will maintain fitness longer enabling them to achieve more of what they can already achieve.

but they wont make you fly faster then its possible which was the debate.

drugs maintain what you already have..they dont give you what you havent got.

[dwh]

ok strapper m8 if you say so we'll agree to disagree the wife sez got to go xmas shopping sick of seeing my rather large nose in the lapptop

[Guest strapper]

ok strapper m8 if you say so we'll agree to disagree the wife sez got to go xmas shopping sick of seeing my rather large nose in the lapptop

 

hide the wallet m8...put it under a nest bowl or summut lol catch you later