Good Bacteria(Probiotics)

[Guest IB]

IB is it true  salmonella can sometimes be mistaken 4 srtep?

 

If you mean the symptoms, yes. If you mean the bacteria under a microscope, no. salmonella is one of the rod-shaped bacteria, and it also has flagella at one end ( little 'whips', just like trichomonas has), Streptococcus is a dot-shaped bacteria.  

[Guest Owen]

IB

you really should not make these statements as if they are fact. You are not right in what you are saying there.

[Guest IB]

yes ian a good posting,,but as you say in your last paragraph,, some of thes" bugs" as i call them, become resistent to anti-biotics,, but as fast as the bugs are becomming resistent to antibiotics,, they are comming out with new antibiotics to combat this ,,, a kind of vicious circle as it were,, but where does it stop,?  

 

Jimmy, Human & Animal Health Authorities across the world have finally wakened up to what is happening. What they are saying is they cannot keep pace with resistance, and the last antibiotic is 30 years old? So there's been no new ones coming on-stream. 2006 seems to have been the crunch year, when the ordinary use of antibiotics on farm animals and the 'freely dispensed' antibiotics from doctor's surgeries, was stopped. 6 antibiotics fed on food to fatten animals for slaughter have been banned. You maybe heard of them, 'growth promoters'. Was reading a survey on antibiotic use in UK farming, 42% farms used antibiotics to treat disease; but 54% used antibiotics on healthy animals to 'prevent disease'. Beyers, the firm that make baytril state their products are not to be used as performance enhancers, nor are they to be used routinely in on healthy animals to 'prevent disease'. Quinolones like baytril 'are for the treatment of serious diseases only, and then only short term therapy.

 

What of the future? Beyers recommend 'disease eradication programmes, vaccination, competitive exclusion and selecting animals for increased disease resistance.

 

The last two for me. Probiotics. Breed naturally healthy stock.

[Guest IB]

IB

you really should not make these statements as if they are fact. You are not right in what you are saying there.

 

What have I got wrong?

[Skull Lofts]

It is a myth that antibiotics destroy all bacteria. There are more bacteria in your gut than there are cells in your body. Antibiotics only kill so many. Some always survive, these become resistant, they then multiply and replace the dead colony with a new antibiotic-resistant colony .. in hours.  

 

So it is safe to say that this wil also happen with the good bacteria?

 

Skull

[Guest IB]

So it is safe to say that this wil also happen with the good bacteria?

 

Skull

 

Based on what was said in the research paper [extract posted earlier] some good bacteria will have some degree of resistance to antibiotics that they regularly come in contact with, will survive, and will re-establish the gut colonies.

 

But remember that other bacteria may also have done the same, and that is where competitive exclusion [probiotics] will tip the balance in favour of good bacteria, winning the race to re-establish these colonies of billions of good bacteria attached to the mucous lining the gut wall first, to the total exclusion of all others. If these 'bad' bacteria cannot access the gut wall they cannot pass through it, therefore they cannot cause infection or disease in the bird's body, and if they cannot attach they pass harmlessly through the gut into the droppings.

 

And for me that raises another question: correct interpretation of stuff found in the droppings. In a bird given a competitive exclusion product on a regular basis e.g. Flightpath every month, how do you tell the difference between cocci oocysts & worm eggs and and say salmonella that the bird has eaten, and passed harmlessly through the gut, to cocci oocysts & worm eggs and say salmonella that are true products of infection within the bird, not just something the bird has eaten?

[Guest Owen]

IB

that was a good post because you have explained the realities of probiotic use. After the onslaught of antibiotic use, common sense will tell you that there will be survivers in the gut. Both, good and bad bugs. And anything we can do to promote the good bugs of even add to them will obviously be of benefit to the bird's health. However, how can we know which of these commercial products work best or even at all.

I am sorry but I do not relate to your remarks about cocci and worms. Healthy pigeons should be managed so that they are never subject to these parasites.  

[holmsidelofts]

 

can't fly clermont on macdonalds  ;D

 

Spot on dwh.

 

For others to say that street pigeons look well i think they need a trip to spec savers. Every street pigeon i have ever seen have looked awful and i would probably guess they dont live that long either.

 

 

 

 

[dwh]

 

Spot on dwh.

 

For others to say that street pigeons look well i think they need a trip to spec savers. Every street pigeon i have ever seen have looked awful and i would probably guess they dont live that long either.

 

 

 

 

pleased someone else noticed!

[dwh]

 

If you mean the symptoms, yes. If you mean the bacteria under a microscope, no. salmonella is one of the rod-shaped bacteria, and it also has flagella at one end ( little 'whips', just like trichomonas has), Streptococcus is a dot-shaped bacteria.  

 

sorry meant symptoms did'nt make it clear

[holmsidelofts]

 

sorry meant symptoms did'nt make it clear

 

Sorry ib wrong again.

you cannot identify bacteria type by looking under a microscope. all you can tell is if bacteria is present, you cannot identify it thats fact. you can only identify it by the means of a culture grown in a lab thats the only way to identify it.

So again my friend you are wrong.

 

[walterbmasson]

 

ritchie 1 just reading bhw year book i see many fanciers are just going to the super market to get fresh actimel -- yakult to keep there pigeons guts in good order no better bargain just now gary 2 for £3 one to you one for the doos  8) 8)

[Roland]

its frightening logging on to this site sometimes , with amount of ilness there is talked about , and all the treatments required , it seems on a weekly basis to the novice , learner etc .

what i cant understand is the stret peckers survive and look bloody good on it ,

 

Well to be truth you are right. However what is more frightening by far are those that should know better are still spouting out absolute rubbish without understanding. Seems as long as a name says, regardless in what format or terms they spout it out as 'Safe' etc. Sometimes it may be to impress, and sometimes, most with good intent. But a little knowledge can be dangerous as they say.

Lets get real here; the 'Name' flyers and fanciers NEVER treat willie nillie. Never treat even unless certain and knowing exactly why and further the nigh all, if not all have good avian Vets looking and testing their birds regularly and certainly when ever there is a cause, or concern to!

Salmonella and such CAN'T be diagnosed for instance via any droppings. They just don't show up, and one must often ask - at further cost - for testing of such! IT isn't, and never has been a thing that Vet undertakes to do on their’ own merit. You ask for 'Droppings to be tested' then that is what is tested, full stop. If you want, need further testing, then you have to pay for such and firstly you must ask for such!. Many are also, like Salmonella a 'Add On' to another illness or virus. If one can afford say a good Micro system for testing then surely that in it's self means A. They can afford a proper test when needed, B. that they can see for them selves the very need of proper testing when they realise that though much shows up, much more, and certainly more concerning things for treatment don't! Yet here we see day in day out advice given freely willy nillie without even seen the district let alone the loft... The bird ekk! What bird(s). Many illnesses are secondarily, and often like a parasite harder to diagnose. Simple, and let me assure you, not I or any one else can tell anyone what is wrong in their loft while sitting here. Yes something’s certainly will point or can lead you in the right direction FULL stop.

And the palaver regards droppings. I'll will, and able to tell you this for sure, if the droppings are a real cause for concern, YOU won't need to ask anything about them for it will hit you as soon as you enter the loft, never mind 'Could Be's' YOU will know instantly that the bird(s) needs sorting big time. And the Vet telling why in detail and mention extra test like Bacterial etc. etc if you will…. Better than calling the vet, or having to return I’d say.

In three sections I have three different sects of droppings. Of course I do! Some at the top shelving’s are directly aside a wire mesh letting in fresh air. Middle a lot more sheltered. the bottom shelves are directly above air coming in via the mesh. So air flow is different, warmth and wind temperature is different. So just how can they all be the same. Different feed / change, different droppings etc. etc.

 

[Guest cloudview]

 

Spot on dwh.

 

For others to say that street pigeons look well i think they need a trip to spec savers. Every street pigeon i have ever seen have looked awful and i would probably guess they dont live that long either.

 

 

 

hi just got back from blackpool , thought my comments would raise some replies, but i see they have been taken out of all context ,i think you know what i was getting at

 

yes streeters do look manky ,and dont have to fly any races etc , they still thrive tho ,

which makes you wonder with all the fatal illnesses in our domesticated birds how do they keep on thriving, by all accounts the streets should be awash with dead streeters , but some of these are rearing 5 or more nests a season ,asyou say on macdonalds ,must be good stuff,

 

[Roland]

Streeters that enter and take to a loft, are often kept as look outs for BOP. However, when and if they want to stay, just train them with your' youngsters. They will be home and in before yours EVERYTIME. And of course as we know y/b's home faster that O/B's  so they will knock the socks of them too. Most, like me, have only ever bother up to say 60 miles. Never sent to races etc. of course.

Yes isn't it marvellous also Cloudview that dogs that have been injected for parva still get it and die.... whilst mongrel will wander willy nilly, have it and it has no effect on them. may well become carriers even I suppose.

But many are the good fanciers that startd of with 'Churchers' and done well with them.

Remember Willis with Bob Oakley collected any and all 'Blacks' from the Gas silos that they wored on and travelled around.

Yes none related, and Willis set the Fed alight with them. Indeed sold them of 4 years later to a Stud!

[carl]

as far as i understand, ,,, in the body of a pigeon [and humans] there is" good bugs" and "bad bugs" , they are continuasly fighting  each other,, when the" bad bugs" beat the" good bugs " the bird becomes ill,,,, treating with broad spectrum anti_biotics kills all the bugs,,,good and bad ,, then the bird must make up more good bugs [immunity bugs] off course it can make up more " bad bugs" at the same time,,,, but treating with a specific anti-biotic only  kills certain" specific bugs" , thats why a vet is recommended in asserting the proper anti biotic for the proper job,, ,,in my opinion many fanciers use,  or rather mis-use antibiotics by treating willy nilly,,, even the doctors nowadays are known to be using antibiotics far too much for simple ailments, and not allowing the immunity system "the good bugs" to fight simple ailments,

     if the immunity system "the good bugs" can beat an ailment "the bad bugs" themselves, the chances of this bird catching this ailment again are less  [obviously things are  more intricate than this , but this is roughly the gist of it,,,in my opinion

 

well said jimmy

[Guest JonesyBhoy]

Streeters that enter and take to a loft, are often kept as look outs for BOP. However, when and if they want to stay, just train them with your' youngsters. They will be home and in before yours EVERYTIME. And of course as we know y/b's home faster that O/B's  so they will knock the socks of them too. Most, like me, have only ever bother up to say 60 miles. Never sent to races etc. of course.

Yes isn't it marvellous also Cloudview that dogs that have been injected for parva still get it and die.... whilst mongrel will wander willy nilly, have it and it has no effect on them. may well become carriers even I suppose.

But many are the good fanciers that startd of with 'Churchers' and done well with them.

Remember Willis with Bob Oakley collected any and all 'Blacks' from the Gas silos that they wored on and travelled around.

Yes none related, and Willis set the Fed alight with them. Indeed sold them of 4 years later to a Stud!

 

Streeties are kept as a look out..??? WTF..???

[Guest Owen]

Carl

further to what you have written. The whole point of antibiotics is that they are actually a poison. The idea is that they kill bacteria in the body. There is no way that the antibiotic can be targeted so it will kill anything it comes into contact with. So after it's use the body is pretty much clear of all the everything. Our job is to re-establish the correct balance of "good" bacteria.

I believe that you are dead right to do everything to avoid the use of antibiotics. Common scense tells you that it is better to allow Nature to biuld up the bird's imunity and not stuff it with a poison unless you absolutely have to.

[Skull Lofts]

Common scense tells you that it is better to allow Nature to biuld up the bird's imunity

 

I am 100% with you on this, but there is only one flaw:

 

Your birds may have the greatest of immunity in your loft, but mix them with mine which have the greatest of immunity in my loft and both our birds wil get sick!

 

Skull

[Guest Owen]

Skull

you are right in what you say. I am a  Sheperd and one of the things that sheep have in common with the pigeons is more or less what you just said. Usually, if you bring new sheep into the flock and mix them with your own you will have problems with one of the flocks. You do not normally have trouble with both flocks. More often than not one of the flocks will have a high level of contagious abortion, but there are other diseases that will show up as well.

The advice is, to keep the ewes that abort and their bugs will have adjusted by the following year. After the milk quoters came in, a lot of Farmers left the dairy side of farming and went into sheep. Some of them bought sheep from dealers who had already mixed them with other flocks. Can you imagine the problems that came up after that?

I feel sure that buying in pigeons can and does have similar results. I have noticed that a lot of very successful Fanciers are very careful about new introductions. Many of them do not have new pigeons, except perhaps very occasionally. And similarly, a lot of Fanciers desperate for success buy pigeons like crazy. And still do not cut it. I think we would all be far better off if we left the Continental Birds alone and if we need to buy birds, we should be very careful how we introduce them to our lofts. It can be like sitting on a time bomb.

  

[Guest IB]

Sorry ib wrong again.

you cannot identify bacteria type by looking under a microscope. all you can tell is if bacteria is present, you cannot identify it thats fact. you can only identify it by the means of a culture grown in a lab thats the only way to identify it.

So again my friend you are wrong.

 

I think you have seriously misunderstood my post due to your poor grasp of the subject. Bacteria typology [type] is not the same as bacteria species. I was asked about streptococcus and salmonella. They are two distinct bacterial types and look very different from each other under the microscope. Streptococcus is a 'coccus' type bacteria, and appears under the microscope as dot-shaped bacteria. Salmonella is a 'bacillus' type bacteria, and appears under the microscope as rod-shaped bacteria. One a 'dot' the other a 'dash'. No way could one be confused with the other. Basic schoolboy biology. Try to check your facts before posting again.

[Roland]

JonesyBhoy  

Streeties are kept as a look out..??? WTF..???

Whilst some streeters may be caught via B.O.P. they are by far a lot more alert and quicker of the mark than any of your birds. Always one eye open for danger etc. They will be in the loft as the others follow. Hopefully following close enough not to get caught.

[Guest Owen]

IB I do not know what microscope you are using or are you quoting from what someone else has said? There is no way you are able to identify bacteria types under a normal microscope. I think you have a lot to offer us, but if you continually want to talk above the heads of most of us and try to show off, the way you are doing, you will soon become ignored. I hope that does not happen because you could be a great help. In addition to what I have just said, I think you should satisfy some of us by saying how well you are able to fly the birds. Because at the end of the day, that is what this is all about. Turning theory into practice and demonstrating that the results follow.  

[pigeonscout]

The birds need good bacteria to have a healthy digestive system so you would think the droppings would turn bad when on a course of antibiotics as we are told they kill the good bacteria.

[Guest Owen]

pigeonscout

I always think of antibiotics as a form of poison. It will kill most of the bacteria it comes in contact with. It will not dicriminate it will get on with the job of killing. The droppings will contain the dead bacteria and will breakdown as per normal.

Your bird should now be free of the disease carrying bacteria but will also have lost most of the beneficial bacteria as well. This is a dangerous time because the bird can be attacked by opportunist bacteria and especially yeast. Ask any woman who has had antibiotics. Most of them can tell you all about yeast infection. It is important at this stage that the bird can build up it's quota of beneficial bacteria so that it can regain normal health.

Antibiotics can and do cure illnesses but do not restore normal robust health. The bird has to do that.