Paratyphoid! Can it be stopped?

[pigeonscout]

 

Why do people still quote the above that came from a study done 20 years ago and is irrelevant now so do everyone a favour and stop quoting it

 

The difference between vaccinating and not means if you dont and you catch salmonella fatality is very high, birds that are vaccinated can still catch it but wont get it anywhere near as bad and with little in the way of fatalities, you have to way up whats more important loosing most of your loft or not.

 

for the cost of doing it is cheaper than replacing all you dead stock, thats for sure.

 

 

Nothing has change unless you have proof that it does it still stands. It was also pointed out to you in a post form IB that there have been follow ups done on theses findings in recent years and the results where the same.  I see now that you are in agreement with what you said was crap and that there is no vaccine that will stop them getting paratyphoid.  My point is if it does not stop them from getting it why give it.

If my birds get paratyphoid then I will treat them with any number of antibiotics that will cure it.  

[pearse1888]

alot of people say that injecting your birds they wont perform as good .. as youngings or yearlings .. i know a few top fanciers that inject for it and are winning steady.. but i think its very sore on the birds because i inject for paramyxo twice when there young and if i was to do paratyphoid .. thats 3 injections and its a bit much .. last year i got a few birds in and within days my youngbird loft was rife with it .. this year ive decided against vaccinating .. but if i ever have a problem with it again i will

[holmsidelofts]

 

Nothing has change unless you have proof that it does it still stands. It was also pointed out to you in a post form IB that there have been follow ups done on theses findings in recent years and the results where the same.  I see now that you are in agreement with what you said was crap and that there is no vaccine that will stop them getting paratyphoid.  My point is if it does not stop them from getting it why give it.

If my birds get paratyphoid them I will treat them with any number of antibiotics that will cure it.  

 

If you dont give it fatality is 90 to 100% in most birds. If you vaccinate you lower the fatality rate as the birds have a lot of immunity to it from the vaccine. thats reason why you do it. and the follow up paper you talk about was done a few years after the first one  not in recent year as you put it. have a look on the site this came from and you will see that. The advances in science moves so quickly that anything older than a few years is irrelevant, Look at all the data and info from modern day vets tell you a different story. if your birds get paratyphoid properly you wont get chance to treat them, birds die very quickly from it within days of catching it. Ask the numerous fanciers on here that have been devastated by it. vaccine lows that rate and gives the bird a fighting chance.

 

[pigeonscout]

I will keep it quite short, but having been in consultation, with some vets over a year or two. I am led to believe that this is a serious, uncontrolable disease that can be within most of our birds without us knowing its  presence. The so called carriers, show no signs of sickness

  whatsoever, perfect looking, but pass it on when breeding commences.  This could even be part of the reason, why ybs are dropping like flies. Any comments most welcome.    

 

What you say is correct  and this is why some fanciers give a treatment against paratyphoid  once a year before pairing up.

[pigeonscout]

 

If you dont give it fatality is 90 to 100% in most birds. If you vaccinate you lower the fatality rate as the birds have a lot of immunity to it from the vaccine. thats reason why you do it. and the follow up paper you talk about was done a few years after the first one  not in recent year as you put it. have a look on the site this came from and you will see that. The advances in science moves so quickly that anything older than a few years is irrelevant, Look at all the data and info from modern day vets tell you a different story. if your birds get paratyphoid properly you wont get chance to treat them, birds die very quickly from it within days of catching it. Ask the numerous fanciers on here that have been devastated by it. vaccine lows that rate and gives the bird a fighting chance.

 

I would like to know where you are getting your info that says 90 to 100% fatality, as this statement tells me you don’t know the first thing about the effects of paratyphoid on racing pigeons.

As most birds will recover from paratyphoid on their own or with the help of treatment. What you need to do is go away and read up on the effects and treatment of  paratyphoid on racing pigeons. Here is a good place to start  http://www.albertaclassic.net/chalmers1.php

[Guest philb40]

i think my mate would disagree that they get better thereselves they need treatment -up to press he has 80% losses .

[pigeonscout]

i think my mate would disagree that they get better thereselves they need treatment -up to press he has 80% losses .

 

Maybe he has something else like adenovirus 2

[Guest philb40]

no its paratyphoid - but like i mentioned in an earlier post it is probably a secondary infection or infections that are causing the damage salmonella opens the door for everything else once the immune system is trashed.

[pearse1888]

if i had a bird with paratyphoid id put it in the bin .. wouldnt try to sure it waste of time imo

[REDCHEQHEN]

so every kid  who has had salmonella poison, is  not going to be able to have a family as   is there sons will be carriers  what crap.  time is the healer for all ailments. and having the time to  separate  the sick to cure,  but in the pigeon game we don't have hospitals in our sheds  so necking is easier  

 

My neice got salmonella poisoning when she was 4 months pregnant with her first child (26 YEARS AGO) her child was born with salmonella. My neice is a carrier - she had 2 more children, both had 2 be delivered by caesarean section and were given antibiotics AT BIRTH. The last one born 15 years after her intial 'poisoning'

 

The carrier state is in her reproductive organs

 

So it exists in humans also

[pearse1888]

cure *

[holmsidelofts]

 

I would like to know where you are getting your info that says 90 to 100% fatality, as this statement tells me you don’t know the first thing about the effects of paratyphoid on racing pigeons.

As most birds will recover from paratyphoid on their own or with the help of treatment. What you need to do is go away and read up on the effects and treatment of  paratyphoid on racing pigeons. Here is a good place to start  http://www.albertaclassic.net/chalmers1.php

 

Comes straight from some of the top pigeon vets in the country, im not making this up. open up any book on pigeon health and its there in black and white

 

[pigeonscout]

 

Comes straight from some of the top pigeon vets in the country, im not making this up. open up any book on pigeon health and its there in black and white

 

Well if your not making it up then please tell me and anyone else reading this the names of the books and vets that say paratyphoid kills 90 to 100% of the pigeons.  Because the vet in the link below is one of many vets that say different.

http://www.albertaclassic.net/chalmers1.php ?

[Guest Owen]

pigeonscout

you do not need to find books to find out about the percentages of birds that can be lost to paratyphoid. There are people who write on this Forum that are able to confirm the high rate of losses. Besides that, there are a lot of lofts that are underperforming due to the fact that they have a subclinical infection. Worse still, there are birds going into the race baskets, week in and week out that are carrying the disease. I will not tolerate weaklings here and I will usually get rid of them very quickly, but in the case of this disease I would probably end up killing most of them.

At this point in time I have chosen to follow the advice of my Vet and vaccinate. He is the educated one. And finally, you could ask for people's experiences with this dreadful disease and then you would be better informed as to the levels of damage it can do.  

[pigeonscout]

pigeonscout

you do not need to find books to find out about the percentages of birds that can be lost to paratyphoid. There are people who write on this Forum that are able to confirm the high rate of losses. Besides that, there are a lot of lofts that are underperforming due to the fact that they have a subclinical infection. Worse still, there are birds going into the race baskets, week in and week out that are carrying the disease. I will not tolerate weaklings here and I will usually get rid of them very quickly, but in the case of this disease I would probably end up killing most of them.

At this point in time I have chosen to follow the advice of my Vet and vaccinate. He is the educated one. And finally, you could ask for people's experiences with this dreadful disease and then you would be better informed as to the levels of damage it can do.  

If someone is telling me im wrong because they have read it in a book or been told by top vets then I have the right to ask what books and what vets

Belgica De Weerd  is one of the best known vets in the pigeon world and he would not put his reputation on the line by making a statement that would show him to be a fool. If you know of another vet that has had more experience than this one I would like to know of him. I have had paratyphoid in my loft like most lofts have at one time or another and it never killed 90 to 100% of my birds. If paratyphoid killed 90 to 100% of the birds there would be very few pigeons about as we are told 80% of lofts have it.

Please read this http://www.belgicadeweerd.nl/bdwenglish/ziektesparathypus.htm.

I am not giving my option I am just saying what theses top vets are saying.

[ch pied]

 

Belgica De Weerd  is one of the best known vets in the pigeon world and he would not put his reputation on the line by making a statement that would show him to be a fool. If you know of another vet that has had more experience than this one I would like to know of him. I have had paratyphoid in my loft like most lofts have at one time or another and it never killed 90 to 100% of my birds. If paratyphoid killed 90 to 100% of the birds there would be very few pigeons about as we are told 80% of lofts have it.

Please read this http://www.belgicadeweerd.nl/bdwenglish/ziektesparathypus.htm.

I am not giving my option I am just saying what theses top vets are saying.

I see your point on this about de-weered saying not to vacc , but this man has a vested intrest in his own product PARASTOP . For him to have a vacc researched approved & licenced in his own name it would cost somewere in the region £300k-£500k .

There is another vet that is anti vacc,,( Armand Scheears ) or was the last time i spoke to him some 5 year's ago .

 

 

[holmsidelofts]

If someone is telling me im wrong because they have read it in a book or been told by top vets then I have the right to ask what books and what vets

Belgica De Weerd  is one of the best known vets in the pigeon world and he would not put his reputation on the line by making a statement that would show him to be a fool. If you know of another vet that has had more experience than this one I would like to know of him. I have had paratyphoid in my loft like most lofts have at one time or another and it never killed 90 to 100% of my birds. If paratyphoid killed 90 to 100% of the birds there would be very few pigeons about as we are told 80% of lofts have it.

Please read this http://www.belgicadeweerd.nl/bdwenglish/ziektesparathypus.htm.

I am not giving my option I am just saying what theses top vets are saying.

 

It depends also in what form the bird gets it. if the bird has the disease in the brain which gives the twisted neck syndrome similar to PMV then 90% of of these birds end up dead.

If the birds get it in the leg or wing joints they are finished even if treated as the joints are irreparable.  As for de weerd his only interest in salmonella is to sell parastop to people he isnt gonna give advice to vaccinate as he would loose hundreds of thousands on a product that most people on here say is poor anyway. I cant comment on parastop as ive never used it and will never use it, i will continue as others like owen have said and will follow the advice of the experts. Im no expert and dont pretend to be. I have a big interest in pigeon health and thats it. You to pigeonscout are no expert either all we can do is give advice based upon what we know and its up to others to make up there mind to what they want to do.

 

 

 

 

 

[frank-123]

many vets are for and many against vaccination only one person can decide yourself

[pigeonscout]

I see your point on this about de-weered saying not to vacc , but this man has a vested intrest in his own product PARASTOP . For him to have a vacc researched approved & licenced in his own name it would cost somewere in the region £300k-£500k .

There is another vet that is anti vacc,,( Armand Scheears ) or was the last time i spoke to him some 5 year's ago .

 

 

I know what you are saying about parastop but he would not have to have a licence to make money selling a vac for paratyphoid as he has no problem using and indorsing the Paramyxo vaccine and even goes on to say it is a must.

[pigeonscout]

many vets are for and many against vaccination only one person can decide yourself

 

I agree with what you say and it is up to everyone to make up their own mind. I was just pointing out that the vaccine would not stop your birds from getting paratyphoid as a lot of fanciers believed it did and was told I was talking crap.

[ch pied]

With paramyxo he has no choice . For what its worth , i won't use the sam & ella vacc , as i have seen some good fancier's loft's destroyed by the use of Baytril and live & inactive vacc over the last 4 year's of repeated use . And i will not use parastop either it being a weak form of altabactine .

[Guest Owen]

pigeonscout

it is no good you becoming emotional about this. ch pied has it right as far as I am concerned. deWeerd is doing Ok thankyou from the sales of something that is being sold for an awful lot of money. I do not trust anything that is said by a person who has a finacial interest in a product.

I think that this disease is present in a great many lofts and ruins a lot of good pigeons. The only thing that seems to have any real effect on it is Baytril. The vaccination is obviously optional after that. I vaccinated because David Parsons thinks it is the right thing to do. I know that David has studied this disease and has come to his own conclusions.

I was not trying to wind you up by suggesting that you could do a sort of survey on the known effects of this disease. I know this for sure, a lot of Fanciers loose rounds of eggs through being clear every year. And a lot of Fanciers loose pigeons through unspecified illnesses every year. And there are more cases of dead in the shell than we tend to realise. And there are plenty of sick pigeons that have been identified as having the diseases by Vets. Most of which will have used Lab sevices to arrive at their conclusions.

And do not get the idea that Vets are always the paragons of virtue that they portray on the tele. After a lifetime with animals, I can tell you that some of them are useless and there are plenty who are in it for the money. And probably worse still, there are some who are in the wrong job because they have not just lost the plot, they never had it in the first place.

I think you are working along the wrong line altogether. I think you would be better off collecting up the real facts based on what is going on around you. And leave the scientific mumbo jumbo to the scientists who are unlikely to agree anyway.

The only other way to cast some light on something as difficult to understand as this disease is to try to get hold of the studies conducted by scientific institutions. These are mostly funded by the private sector. And sad to say, because this sport is so poor, we will probably have to look to the poultry industry for the information we need. I will have some time on my hands in a couple of weeks, so I may decide to have a look at it to see what turns up.  

[pigeonscout]

pigeonscout

it is no good you becoming emotional about this. ch pied has it right as far as I am concerned. deWeerd is doing Ok thankyou from the sales of something that is being sold for an awful lot of money. I do not trust anything that is said by a person who has a finacial interest in a product.

I think that this disease is present in a great many lofts and ruins a lot of good pigeons. The only thing that seems to have any real effect on it is Baytril. The vaccination is obviously optional after that. I vaccinated because David Parsons thinks it is the right thing to do. I know that David has studied this disease and has come to his own conclusions.

I was not trying to wind you up by suggesting that you could do a sort of survey on the known effects of this disease. I know this for sure, a lot of Fanciers loose rounds of eggs through being clear every year. And a lot of Fanciers loose pigeons through unspecified illnesses every year. And there are more cases of dead in the shell than we tend to realise. And there are plenty of sick pigeons that have been identified as having the diseases by Vets. Most of which will have used Lab sevices to arrive at their conclusions.

And do not get the idea that Vets are always the paragons of virtue that they portray on the tele. After a lifetime with animals, I can tell you that some of them are useless and there are plenty who are in it for the money. And probably worse still, there are some who are in the wrong job because they have not just lost the plot, they never had it in the first place.

I think you are working along the wrong line altogether. I think you would be better off collecting up the real facts based on what is going on around you. And leave the scientific mumbo jumbo to the scientists who are unlikely to agree anyway.

The only other way to cast some light on something as difficult to understand as this disease is to try to get hold of the studies conducted by scientific institutions. These are mostly funded by the private sector. And sad to say, because this sport is so poor, we will probably have to look to the poultry industry for the information we need. I will have some time on my hands in a couple of weeks, so I may decide to have a look at it to see what turns up.  

 

Your wrong when you think im getting emotional but I have to agree with a lot of what you have said about the Baytril and fanciers loosing eggs and the only other way to cast some light on something as difficult to understand as this disease is to try to get hold of the studies conducted by scientific institutions. Here is one study about the vaccines http://veterinaryrecord.bvapublications.com/cgi/content/abstract/128/7/152

 

A lot of fanciers are loosing eggs because they do not treat for para before pairing up because they believe the vaccine has stop them from getting.

[pigeonscout]

 

It depends also in what form the bird gets it. if the bird has the disease in the brain which gives the twisted neck syndrome similar to PMV then 90% of of these birds end up dead.

If the birds get it in the leg or wing joints they are finished even if treated as the joints are irreparable.  As for de weerd his only interest in salmonella is to sell parastop to people he isnt gonna give advice to vaccinate as he would loose hundreds of thousands on a product that most people on here say is poor anyway. I cant comment on parastop as ive never used it and will never use it, i will continue as others like owen have said and will follow the advice of the experts. Im no expert and dont pretend to be. I have a big interest in pigeon health and thats it. You to pigeonscout are no expert either all we can do is give advice based upon what we know and its up to others to make up there mind to what they want to do.

 

 

 

 

 

They all say to treat for paratyphoid before you give the vaccine so he could tell people to treat with para before the vaccine and still sell the same amount. If your going to give advice on something it pays to know a wee bit about it first and not tell people they are talking crap when they have stated a fact.

[pigeonscout]

 

It depends also in what form the bird gets it. if the bird has the disease in the brain which gives the twisted neck syndrome similar to PMV then 90% of of these birds end up dead.

If the birds get it in the leg or wing joints they are finished even if treated as the joints are irreparable.  As for de weerd his only interest in salmonella is to sell parastop to people he isnt gonna give advice to vaccinate as he would loose hundreds of thousands on a product that most people on here say is poor anyway. I cant comment on parastop as ive never used it and will never use it, i will continue as others like owen have said and will follow the advice of the experts. Im no expert and dont pretend to be. I have a big interest in pigeon health and thats it. You to pigeonscout are no expert either all we can do is give advice based upon what we know and its up to others to make up there mind to what they want to do.

 

 

 

 

 

You still have not told me what books or vets told you it killed 90 to 100% of the birds.