brotherxsister

[aye ready]

although i've kept pigeons or been around pigeons for about 40yrs i've never paired a brotherx sister pairing for racing has anyone done this with any success with their offspring

[OLDYELLOW]

tried it but never liked the ofsprings defects better to pair half brothers to half sisters imo

[dwh]

although i've kept pigeons or been around pigeons for about 40yrs i've never paired a brotherx sister pairing for racing has anyone done this with any success with their offspring

 

not bro x sis but father to daughter and that was to close bred rubbish

only way breed a few off them you might a good n and if they ok cross them into something outside your family JMO

[pjc]

I was having an interesting conversation with somebody a few weeks ago and he had paired brother to sister for 11 generations and bred winners. What he did say the pair had to be a complete match, if there were differences or weaknesses in either then never put them together as the weakness would be reproduced and prominent in the youngsters.

[aye ready]

tried it but never liked the ofsprings defects better to pair half brothers to half sisters imo

 

was told that o/y it was because the gene pool was too close i.e too inbred but this question was out of curiosity (shrug)

[aye ready]

I was having an interesting conversation with somebody a few weeks ago and he had paired brother to sister for 11 generations and bred winners. What he did say the pair had to be a complete match, if there were differences or weaknesses in either then never put them together as the weakness would be reproduced and prominent in the youngsters.

 

what do you think he mean't by a complete match obviously same sire and dam but did he mean bluexblue  cheqxcheq  etc

[pjc]

Perfect match, size, type, body and eye

[OLDYELLOW]

Perfect match, size, type, body and eye

 

was always told never to pair same eyes up one of my best pairings was mother to son same eye different shaped birds

[jimmy white]

although i've kept pigeons or been around pigeons for about 40yrs i've never paired a brotherx sister pairing for racing has anyone done this with any success with their offspring

 

many years ago, i borrowed a hen that had topped a fed, to pair to a cock of mine  that had topped the fed,,,, each of us had a yb apiece,,,, my yb off this pair won a race,,, it was then we matched the pedigrees of sire and dam,,,,,, they were in fact brother and sister,,

this was complete fluke in this paring, i probably wouldnt have mated these two, if i had known,, but there you are,,, nowt as strange as pigeons

[Guest Owen]

Why would you want to make a pairing like this? The only reason to make any pairing at all, if you want the young, is when you pair two winning birds together. If the two birds are brilliant racers I would not hesitate to pair them. Brother and sister or not. At least you will know what is hidden in the reccessive genes. And there is every good chance that you will breed something special. But, for goodness sake, do not pair birds unless there is a good reason to believe that they can produce winners. Unless of course you are involved in experimentation, which is a differant thing altogether.

A major reason why people loose pigeons is because they insist on pairing birds together in spite of the fact that they have done nothing. The best breeders of winning pigeons are winning pigeons.

Take note of what Jimmy White has said. In his case a brother and sister produced something good but it was not any old brother and sister. They were proven winners.

[Guest the quiet man]

Why would you want to make a pairing like this? The only reason to make any pairing at all, if you want the young, is when you pair two winning birds together. If the two birds are brilliant racers I would not hesitate to pair them. Brother and sister or not. At least you will know what is hidden in the reccessive genes. And there is every good chance that you will breed something special. But, for goodness sake, do not pair birds unless there is a good reason to believe that they can produce winners. Unless of course you are involved in experimentation, which is a differant thing altogether.

A major reason why people loose pigeons is because they insist on pairing birds together in spite of the fact that they have done nothing. The best breeders of winning pigeons are winning pigeons.

Take note of what Jimmy White has said. In his case a brother and sister produced something good but it was not any old brother and sister. They were proven winners.

 

owen, i think you have hit the nail on the head.

[dwh]

Why would you want to make a pairing like this? The only reason to make any pairing at all, if you want the young, is when you pair two winning birds together. If the two birds are brilliant racers I would not hesitate to pair them. Brother and sister or not. At least you will know what is hidden in the reccessive genes. And there is every good chance that you will breed something special. But, for goodness sake, do not pair birds unless there is a good reason to believe that they can produce winners. Unless of course you are involved in experimentation, which is a differant thing altogether.

A major reason why people loose pigeons is because they insist on pairing birds together in spite of the fact that they have done nothing. The best breeders of winning pigeons are winning pigeons.

Take note of what Jimmy White has said. In his case a brother and sister produced something good but it was not any old brother and sister. They were proven winners.

 

having read yor post owen would you breed broxsis 4 stock to use as a cross or would you breed to race and would you 2 or as many as you could

[Guest strapper]

although there are birds that have won from brother sister mating i do believe its going against nature.

we look too much for the perfect pigeon without realising what we are creating,we have diseases from ear to ear around us these days and crossing genes that are close are just a disaster waiting to happen.

when imune systems are needed to be at its fullest strengths, why do we cross nestlings.

for all we know we could be creating weak genes that have no defence against illnesses.

too many excuses for weak imune systems are blamed on over use of medications ,while all the time brother sister matings are done.

upto the individual but not for me sorry.

[paddymac]

Was thinking of pairing a g/sire to g/daughter this year, not too sure if it would be a good mating for offspring.  

[PIGEON_MAN]

Why would you want to make a pairing like this? The only reason to make any pairing at all, if you want the young, is when you pair two winning birds together. If the two birds are brilliant racers I would not hesitate to pair them. Brother and sister or not. At least you will know what is hidden in the reccessive genes. And there is every good chance that you will breed something special. But, for goodness sake, do not pair birds unless there is a good reason to believe that they can produce winners. Unless of course you are involved in experimentation, which is a differant thing altogether.

A major reason why people loose pigeons is because they insist on pairing birds together in spite of the fact that they have done nothing. The best breeders of winning pigeons are winning pigeons.

Take note of what Jimmy White has said. In his case a brother and sister produced something good but it was not any old brother and sister. They were proven winners.

I,m sorry Owen but why do you keep writing this rubbish AND IT IS RUBBISH,it may be something that you believe in but it is not fact,many times I and others have said that their best breeders are birds that have never flown let alone won anything,many novices will read these threads and think that the only way to breed winners is by pairing winner to winner as you keep saying but this simply is not true, there is no guarantee that because to birds have won loads of races between them that they will breed the same,I breed winners every year and almost all my stock birds have never raced,perhaps I,m just lucky somehow I dont think so.

[aye ready]

I,m sorry Owen but why do you keep writing this rubbish AND IT IS RUBBISH,it may be something that you believe in but it is not fact,many times I and others have said that their best breeders are birds that have never flown let alone won anything,many novices will read these threads and think that the only way to breed winners is by pairing winner to winner as you keep saying but this simply is not true, there is no guarantee that because to birds have won loads of races between them that they will breed the same,I breed winners every year and almost all my stock birds have never raced,perhaps I,m just lucky somehow I dont think so.

i agree pigeon man all my stock birds are in the main brothers and sisters to pigeons that have won for me over the years they all came out of a base pair that are responsible for over 20 x 1st  some pigeons winning more than one first hence the stock birds are carrying the same genes as the winning birds that was the reason for my question,if brother/sister were paired together would it give a stronger pool of winning genes

 

[leighton1984]

I,m sorry Owen but why do you keep writing this rubbish AND IT IS RUBBISH,it may be something that you believe in but it is not fact,many times I and others have said that their best breeders are birds that have never flown let alone won anything,many novices will read these threads and think that the only way to breed winners is by pairing winner to winner as you keep saying but this simply is not true, there is no guarantee that because to birds have won loads of races between them that they will breed the same,I breed winners every year and almost all my stock birds have never raced,perhaps I,m just lucky somehow I dont think so.

 

i get your point.

But have they winning genes in them bet they are not bred from birds that have never won anything as poor birds 99% of the time bred poor birds.

winning genes i think every one wants.

[jimmy white]

although there are birds that have won from brother sister mating i do believe its going against nature.

we look too much for the perfect pigeon without realising what we are creating,we have diseases from ear to ear around us these days and crossing genes that are close are just a disaster waiting to happen.

when imune systems are needed to be at its fullest strengths, why do we cross nestlings.

for all we know we could be creating weak genes that have no defence against illnesses.

too many excuses for weak imune systems are blamed on over use of medications ,while all the time brother sister matings are done.

upto the individual but not for me sorry.

 

i would agree with strappers post,and think it is a very valid point,,,, inbreeding going on too far, and too long cannot be good thing   in the long term , for racing pigeons in general,,and i do believe that the hybrid vigour is needed,, its very apparent in dogs, very close inbred breeds are more often  at the vet than mongrels,, although this can be a short term way to breed a winner, in the long term they must suffer,, only my opinion.

i have often bred very good pigeons from an inbred cock of a certain" breed" out_crossed, to an inbred hen of a different "breed" , but through all the years of pigeon racing, i often wonder if this can be defined as" out_crossed" now??  i often wonder if this could be one of the many causes of the increase in the many  diseases we face to-day  :-/  

[sox]

most top lofts in belgium holland allways cross them

[jimmy white]

most top lofts in belgium holland allways cross them

 

this is my point,,, where to we stop??  as   the old adage says

"kick against nature and it will eventually  kick back"

[JAS]

In 2003 we had a brother\sister pairing not threw choice as they would not pair to the ones we had picked for them. The cock was our good Houben and already a winner of 3x1st and over £1500. The hen had won 1x1st as youngster. We took 4 youngsters from them we raced 2 and kept 2 for stock. The 2 that raced 1 was 2nd Open C.S. 3 Bird club winning over £600. He also bred a hen in 2004 that went on to win 1st sec, D  16th Open SNFC Newbury.His nestmate went down in the 3rd y\b race. The 2 we kept for stock were flying out birds and won got taken at the loft with the Sparrowhen. The other 1 bred our top stock hen MAGIC dam\g\dam of many winners for us and some friends of ours including 1st sec G for J Hunter Aberdeen. Sorry for going on abit but for these birds pairing together we would not have the best birds we have had. What i will say is we have had some good and some bad results with brother\sister pairings.

[aye ready]

i'll just get a loan of one of the old houben cock then john that'll save me any bother (happy)(happy)(happy)

[dwh]

 

i get your point.

But have they winning genes in them bet they are not bred from birds that have never won anything as poor birds 99% of the time bred poor birds.

winning genes i think every one wants.

 

valid point but why not pair bro x sis  specifically 4 anew introduction into the loft giving you the winnig genes + the vitality of new blood surly an ideal situation?

[Guest Owen]

PIGEON-MAN

it is you that is misleading people through the fact that you are not telling it as it is. Breeding is all about the genes. So there is only two ways you can do this. First of all you can, use birds that are related to winners and therefore could have the genes you want or you can use birds that have won and you know that they have the genes you want. Your way does work, of that there is no doubt, but  because we can not actually see what we are looking for there is a very strong chance that it may not. In all breeding there has to be a system of progeny testing whether it is a visual thing as in show specimens or through trying the birds on the road as with racing individuals. If you want me to advise novices then my advice would be to ignore cranks like you and pair best to best, continuing until you are breeding the winners you need. And providing you know how to keep the birds healthy you will become a serious competitor. Your way, they will chase their tails until maybe by luck they might find the odd good bird. Then when and if that happens they are unlikely to know what to do with it. I bet you recognise that.    

[dwh]

PIGEON-MAN

it is you that is misleading people through the fact that you are not telling it as it is. Breeding is all about the genes. So there is only two ways you can do this. First of all you can, use birds that are related to winners and therefore could have the genes you want or you can use birds that have won and you know that they have the genes you want. Your way does work, of that there is no doubt, but  because we can not actually see what we are looking for there is a very strong chance that it may not. In all breeding there has to be a system of progeny testing whether it is a visual thing as in show specimens or through trying the birds on the road as with racing individuals. If you want me to advise novices then my advice would be to ignore cranks like you and pair best to best, continuing until you are breeding the winners you need. And providing you know how to keep the birds healthy you will become a serious competitor. Your way, they will chase their tails until maybe by luck they might find the odd good bird. Then when and if that happens they are unlikely to know what to do with it. I bet you recognise that.    

 

owen s right best to best is not exactly winner to winner(thts if i'm reading this right) a nst mate maybe bred and not race so well as its nestmate but IMO this bird carrys the same winning genes so why not put it to stock and try it maybe thats why the brother or sister becomes a prolific breeder :)