Rayon/NPO/Nat in Dutch Racing

[swilcox]

In this weeks BHW i have read the following 1st Noord Holland National? 1st National AFD10, and on a another advert i have read 1st Grand National Dutch NPO.

 

I cant see where these titles come from?

 

In Holland Feds are called Rayons and they normally fly in Afdelings which we would call combines. 3 middle distance races a year are NPO races and one NPO race for old and young at middle distance is called a National. This year it was Blois and i believe Etampes and in both races the 1st Nat would be against 60-70,000 birds. The section winners would be 1st Afdeling winners. There are also National races from Dax, Bergerac and St Vincent.

 

On top of this the ZLU organise Nationals from Pau, Dax, Barcelona etc which are flown with Internationals.

 

So a pigeon at middle distance can be;

 

1st Rayon

1st Rayon + 1st Afdeling

1st Rayon + 1st Afdeling + 1st NPO (if its an NPO race)

or 1st Rayon + 1st Afdeling +1st NPO + 1st Nat

 

The terms 1st Nat Afd 8 or 1st Nat NPO or 1st Grand National or 1st National Noord Holland in my eyes are not possible and remember there are lots of Afdeling races that are not NPOs!!!!!! and are certainly not Nationals.

 

Stuart

[gangster]

GOOD POSTING STUART THIS SHOULD ENLIGHTEN SOME OF THE GUYS BEFORE THEY SPEND BIG MONEY ON FAIRY STORY CLAIMS..................

[gangster]

WELL MY FRIENDS IN NIJMEGEN FIND IT VERY AMUSING TO SAY THE LEAST, THEY SEEM TO THINK WERE VERY EASY TO BE CONNED......

[swilcox]

Rose a combine races every week and as the distance increases they hold races that have more meaning ie NPO races, the problem is people like to combine races NPOs when there not and Nationals when they are NPO Afd races, confused myself now

[gangster]

I ONCE WAS AFTER BUYING A PAIR OF NL BIRDS BUT DUE TO MOVING A LOFT COULD NOT GET THERE, THEY WENT FOR GOOD MONEY, THEY TURNED OUT TO BE FROM A GUY I KNEW IN HOLLAND HE BROKE DOWN LAUGHING AS HE HAD SENT THEM TO THE BUTCHER AS SOUP PIGEONS 5GLDS EACH HE SAID THEY WERE CRAP........................SO GOOD ADVERTISING SELLS ANYTHING.......

[gangster]

WELL I KNOW PETER FOX HAS BIRDS IN HOLLAND DOING WELL, MY FRIEND WAS GIFTED 2YBS FROM PETER, THE HEN HAS BRED HIM SOME SUPER PIGEONS,I ALSO GIFTED HIM A BIRD THAT BRED HIM HIS BEST HEN A FEW YEARS AGO........BUT YES A LOT OF THE BIRDS COME HERE WITH JOKE PERFORMANCES FRANKLY.......A TRUSTED SOURCE IS BEST STUARTS ON IT.........

[gangster]

TO BE HONEST I DONT THINK THERE IS THAT MUTCH BETWEEN THEM WE HAVE GUYS HERE ID SAY WOULD BE AT TOP LEVEL OVER THERE,AS WOULD SOME HERE.....

[Guest]

Dutch aren't the only ones not to come up with all the reasonably required information.

 

Read most of the race reports / results in the BHW each week: not only don't you get the date the race was held, but the distance, number of birds competing, and the number of members / clubs competing.

 

Without such basic information you cannot hope to judge the calibre of competition or make true comparisons between different race results.

[gangster]

very true bruno.. but what i mean is because the dutch do a complete result ,all timed in birds on the result the general pigeon public are hood winked in the real performances of some birds ,ive seen ads for birds that frankly i would have disposed of they are so far out of the result its a joke!!!! and they are advertised here as some sort of superstar..........................

[peterpau]

Foreign rings or pedigree's sell pigeons. We have birds that have done well at 5/600 mile but they are all crossbred. What would they be worth? Bugger all I would think.  2nd sec  8th sec 13th sec 21st sec MNFC , NFC and NRCC. Tell you what though we had Dutch and Belgian imports last year. Not here now.  

[Guest]

Foreign rings or pedigree's sell pigeons. We have birds that have done well at 5/600 mile but they are all crossbred. What would they be worth? Bugger all I would think.  2nd sec  8th sec 13th sec 21st sec MNFC , NFC and NRCC. Tell you what though we had Dutch and Belgian imports last year. Not here now.  

 

Well I think they would be worth a lot to anyone wanting to found a distance family around them.

 

I note you include 'cross-bred' as if it was a mongrel term inferior to e.g inbred birds. What you have in these birds is the mix of genes making them winners at this distance. Can't think of a better package to start with .. can you?  

[expat1]

Hello

Perhaps i can help you on the subject of National Races over in the Dutch side of the water

Holland first.

There are four sectors and these can be called Semi Nationals except for two one Day flights at about 400 to 450 miles these races are from Blois and Muchen where all holland  competes these are the only true National Races

Many of the short - middle distance races in Holland have a big birdage but  the Radius would not be very big. In England we would call it a Federation and not a wide area Fed like the Solent Fed or say some others just  as a comparision

 

Germany

There are no true National Races. German Fanciers can only race in one club and the International Races but for those who compete in the international Races then they call it  the German National

 

Belgium

From Bourges onwards Every single week there is a National Race which takes in the whole of Belgium anyone can enter no club fees just take your pigeons to a marking station of your choice

Then we have the International Races of which certain National Races are combined with them on the Long Distance

The Type of Racing in Belgium is as follows they Have Vitesse. Sprint up to about 200kms about   120miles

then they have Middle distance from 200 kms to 350kms, 200 odd miles or so then Fond which is Long Distance from 350 to 700kms about 440 miles then they finish off with the races over 440 to 700 miles

expat1

[swilcox]

Expat1, not correct regarding Holland.

 

My post was not designed to put down foriegn birds!! It was pointing out that some fanciers are advertising foreign results to make them sound better than they are!!!! Unfortunitley for these guys the internet has opened up the trail of information and people are much better educated now.

 

Stuart

[expat1]

Hi

My imformation comes direct from a Dutch Fancier friend of mine, So if he does not know then its time he moved, You are correct in the letters afdelings But he prefers to call them Semi Nationals as you say we would call them a fed or Combine But there are still only two Nationals Blois and Munchen. Also you are correct when you say they elaborate on performances to make them sound and look better they do as so they do in Belgium But over in Belgium it is a National as i explained. What you have to do before you go to Blackpool and Buy is study the results and one tip Do not think in the context of how many first prizes won because the Dutch and Belgians do not, it is the Ace Pigeon and Tites and i can tell you it is a terrible hard job for a fancier to win them

If any are interested i will try to explain a little of how it is

expat1

[swilcox]

Its right what you say Expat! However they do class Bergerac and St Vincent as Nationals, my partner Raymond Moleveld won 1st Nat St Vincent 37,236 birds, he beat every pigeon in the race!!! Other Nationals are raced with the ZLU and incorperates the Internationals.

 

Stuart

[swilcox]

I suppose so, as i have said before always ask around before you jump in.

[Guest slugmonkey]

any time  you have a bird that is winning against 2,000 - 20,000 birds I would say its a pretty fair pigeon and I don't care where he is bred when you are spending 10,000 + on a bird you are a FOOL if you arent ABSOLUTELY sure that the results are as quoted I also agree that a lot of birds are given more credit than they deserve, just becase they carry a Belgium band dosent mean they are good birds no more than buying birds from a top name loft ensures they are quality animals I think a lot of guys who aren't that good of flyers buy expensive birds expecting to come out on top if you wern't doing that good to start with a bunch of new blood will not put you on top I think a lot of good birds are passed on or killed because of bad handlers not because they are bad birds the only thing you can judge is performance! all the pedigrees in the world arent worth a darn if the birds being produced don't race

most of the national aces from belgium are sold OUTSIDE the country so wouldnt it stand to reason that there are just as good of birds being bred elsewhere ??? very few national ace birds are kept by the breeders so I would think that a bird that was bred from 2 of these would be just as good as any other bird of this calibre no matter where he is bred I have about 40 sons and daughters of several national ace pigeons and can't give the damn things away why - because I dont advertise if you look at how most of these type birds are bred they have 1 national ace parent and sell for about 5,000 dollars a pop I breed a national ace cock to a national ace hen and can't get 1,000 dollars for them right now I have a son of Kaiser (VanRines) that I bred to a daughter of Pinnacle ( Beaverdam ) this daughter has won 2 races so she has the performance to go with the pedigree she is bred from national ace Pinnacle and a daughter of the Toon ( 19 time winner I dont have ped here in front of me so thats all info now ) I also have a full brother of this hen that has won 2 races ( I pulled it in middle of season to breed ) and I would be lucky to get 500 dollars for one of them I have this son of Kaiser in with a daughter of Sharky and next he will be in with a daughter of The Meteor ( we passed over Dreamboy to buy this bird )  Pinnacle was owned by Ganus for a short time and several top prizes were won by the children/grandchildren ( including a car ) I had 2 birds in the World Ace Challenge that are grand children of Pinnacle one took 56th and the other 66th look at the website for it and while you are there look at some of the names that are listed in the entrys and see if you know any of them so it's fairly obvious to me that I have the quality it takes to compete at top levels but I fly in a 20 member club no one has ever heard of and I am on the short end so I don't win because the wind some times is a major factor but lets look at whos beating me Darrell Bybee and sons ever heard of them ( 51st sun city million they also did really well in snowbird and the world ace challenge as well and I belive they also had a good one in the vegas race ) we also have another couple of guys who you might have heard of -Bill Bonwell, he is still one of the top long distance racers of all time ( A.U. record holder ) in fact we have 3 of the top 5 distance guys of all times in our club ( Dennis Wells, Larry Hedge - who has a whole loft full of Clausing Houbens ) so I don't think I am in bad company I just race my birds and keep hoping some day someone will figure it out !!!

[expat1]

Hello

Yes the Long distance races are run by the ZLU but there are still 4 sections and each sect or AFD has its own winner and those winners call it a 1st National Now some sections may send 2.000pigeons others 2000 to 7000 it depends on where you live and the distance. But really to be honest who are we as strangers to say they are wrong, So long as it is out in the open for all to see the results which i can guarantee they are as i take the De Fontkrant Paper. Then we cannot judge them Only make up our own minds if purchasing. In Holland the Competition WHZB is a guide to short middle distance pigeon racing over there.

In Belgium if you take a Belgium Paper you can then compete in that Papers Championship. and those who do not take the paper cannot. But the winners of those Competitions could not really be as good as the fanciers who do not take these papers.  its the same as the pigeon corn championships if you do not use there product you cannot enter.

You have so many championships in Belgium the thought of them is enough to make your head spin.

The Main thing in Belgium is this. Every race you enter be it Club- Fed -National or International you have to pick out the pigeons in order that you expect them to home from each race in other words the 1st and 2nd and you at times need the 3rd Nominated pigeon if you are to compete for a lot of Championships. i can go on more but this is enough at the moment

Just to say that Slugmonkey' is right what he says when any of us buy pigeons we all hope we are getti ng a fair deal Well i do myself and i hope the purchaser does too if we are selling, we certainly do our very best because reputation means everything.

expat1

[swilcox]

We own 43 1st Combine/Adefling/NPO and Nationals winners including 1st National St Vincent 37,000b, 1st NPO Brive 7500b and 1st Adefling 11 St Quentin 11,300birds which was raced by my partner Raymond Moleveld and we report there performance with accuracy, i dont think its too much to ask other to do the same!!!!

 

This year we purchased a hen that was 1st NPO 45,000birds, it would be easy to call her a national winner but i wont because it was a NPO(sector) winner!!!!

 

Stuart

[expat1]

A good bit of advertising is that. However if you feel so strongly about the Dutch systyem why not get your dutch friend to get on to the powers to be or perhaps yourself. Always the best way i find if i have a point to make i go to the source.

But as i do not live and Race in Holland they would probably tell me to get ---- and as i know basically what is what and i pass any info on to any interested that is it. We can say the same in all countries.

One thing is sure You have bought in enough pigeons from Holland so in one respect you must be happy

I too have most of my Stock Dutch bred' but as always and anywhere. 'Buyer Beware'

expat1

[Guest slugmonkey]

WHZB NPO All Holland Middle Distance 1st National Ace,  I belive this is how these pedigrees read I will look to see if that is correct but I belive it is these are not individual race winners but the best overall bird that year and class

[swilcox]

Maybe we like similair pigeons steve!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!