Guest Posted November 29, 2007 Report Share Posted November 29, 2007 I emailed mine 2 days ago about this tax being put on us, ive heard nothing, but then again mike foster is about as much use as a ashtray on a motorbike :-/ :-/ :-/ but you dont smoke anyway ;D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 29, 2007 Report Share Posted November 29, 2007 I've been busy with some other issues the last week, so I've missed a lotof this and basically Dark Helmet and Dovescot will know my sentiments are with them 100%. However my post is to clarify this tax issue. There are two different taxes here if I have skim read this post correctly, VAT and NNDR. The fact that pigeon racing is a sport or not has no bearing on National Non Domestic Rates (NNDR). If a property (heraditament) is not domestic, then it maybe rated and the organisation will de liable to pay non domestic rates. When I last worked in the revenues dept of a large Metropolitan Council 1995, the Council had discretion in effect to give rate relief to Charities but it was entirely up to the Council, because the discretionary relief was paid for by the Council. The Council put a set amount one side and that as it, the amount of aplications made no difference to the pot. In this instance I don't understand why the revenue have decided to rate this shed. If I was involved in the club I would be making an appointment with the principal officer of the local authority concerned and asking the question, I know its the Revenue (customs and excise) that rates however the principal officer will have considerable influence after all it will only be a pittance. I would also contact the councillor who has executive authority for finance and making representations there. As to VAT, I haven't had to calculate it personally since 1981when I was Secretary of a very large club. But if you are running a business/ organisation, even if it is non profit making you must register for VAT, when you raech a certain financial threshhold, sorry I don't know what that is now. If pigeon racing was a sport as I understand we would not be required to pay VAT but this is not something I have followed. The main point however is that these two taxes are not related and have completley different parameters Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dogeon Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 I've been busy with some other issues the last week, so I've missed a lotof this and basically Dark Helmet and Dovescot will know my sentiments are with them 100%. However my post is to clarify this tax issue. There are two different taxes here if I have skim read this post correctly, VAT and NNDR. The fact that pigeon racing is a sport or not has no bearing on National Non Domestic Rates (NNDR). If a property (heraditament) is not domestic, then it maybe rated and the organisation will de liable to pay non domestic rates. When I last worked in the revenues dept of a large Metropolitan Council 1995, the Council had discretion in effect to give rate relief to Charities but it was entirely up to the Council, because the discretionary relief was paid for by the Council. The Council put a set amount one side and that as it, the amount of aplications made no difference to the pot. In this instance I don't understand why the revenue have decided to rate this shed. If I was involved in the club I would be making an appointment with the principal officer of the local authority concerned and asking the question, I know its the Revenue (customs and excise) that rates however the principal officer will have considerable influence after all it will only be a pittance. I would also contact the councillor who has executive authority for finance and making representations there. As to VAT, I haven't had to calculate it personally since 1981when I was Secretary of a very large club. But if you are running a business/ organisation, even if it is non profit making you must register for VAT, when you raech a certain financial threshhold, sorry I don't know what that is now. If pigeon racing was a sport as I understand we would not be required to pay VAT but this is not something I have followed. The main point however is that these two taxes are not related and have completley different parameters dont quote me but 3 years ago it was around the £55,000 mark the be VAT reg but the tax that is the issue is council tax, property tax, poll tax ( all the same ) Non domestic rates : Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DOVEScot Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 dont quote me but 3 years ago it was around the £55,000 mark the be VAT reg but the tax that is the issue is council tax, property tax, poll tax ( all the same ) Non domestic rates : Your right, the goverment has indicated that the "council tax relief" given to organisations and sports is being reviewed. One of the ones being left of the list or being reviewed is the relief given to pigeon clubs premises where the house their baskets, as it is not considered a sports premises eligble for relief. I think it has now been shelved due to the backlash from fanciers through the media and directly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 Your right, the goverment has indicated that the "council tax relief" given to organisations and sports is being reviewed. One of the ones being left of the list or being reviewed is the relief given to pigeon clubs premises where the house their baskets, as it is not considered a sports premises eligble for relief. I think it has now been shelved due to the backlash from fanciers through the media and directly. I hope you are right Dovescot, as that is extremely good news in deed! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tic eye Hen Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 Dovescot I am not being self centered and I am like most of us very passionate about our SPORT. I am trying to get things done. It is not praise I want it is results for US PIGEON FANCIERS! No I am not going to Blackpool (I attend local shows). I do lead another life and have other committments. Thank you for your comment though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ticeye Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 The Royal Pigeon Racing Association is a national organisation representing the sport of of pigeon racing in England. We are privileged to have Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II as our patron. For over a century the Royal Pigeon Racing Association has been at the heart of pigeon racing in England, and we look forward to representing and supporting our loyal membership in the new millenium. the rpra also represent members in ireland scotland and wales Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 the rpra also represent members in ireland scotland and wales well said tic eye,...paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DOVEScot Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 Dovescot I am not being self centered and I am like most of us very passionate about our SPORT. I am trying to get things done. It is not praise I want it is results for US PIGEON FANCIERS! No I am not going to Blackpool (I attend local shows). I do lead another life and have other committments. Thank you for your comment though. This is the comment I objected to No reply to my idea then?????? NO WONDER PIGEON RACING IS AS IT IS!! I AM WILLING TO MAKE A STAND AND NO-ONE IS TAKING IT SERIOUSLY. Most of you guys are more interrested in the annual dance... What are you all scared of, most of you are all talk and willing to sit back and let the true fanciers do the hard work? Bring it on! Ha its laughable!!! Not only you but everyone on here has a life as well as pigeons, that's why we want to talk about blackpool as well other issues on the site, not made to feel guilty because we are committed to other things both on and off the site Pigeon racing is the only part of pigeon keeping that is any chance of being recognised as a sport Any other part will be considered a hobby, a business a past time or a way of life, but as a pigeon forum we should support all parts of pigeon keeping unlike others on the site. Without the roots the tree will soon die and topple also without the branches it would soon become onesided and crooked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 I think an important element of sport must be 'competition between people'. Surely that would include showing racing & fancy pigeon breeds, because it is the bird the fancier is competing with, and is all-inclusive: other breeds of birds to dogs , cats, pot-bellied pigs etc. ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DOVEScot Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 I think an important element of sport must be 'competition between people'. Surely that would include showing racing & fancy pigeon breeds, because it is the bird the fancier is competing with, and is all-inclusive: other breeds of birds to dogs , cats, pot-bellied pigs etc. ?? Don't think it will go in that direction regards being a sport, but you never know, we could live in hope. I think if we get racing recognised as a sport then we will be doing well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THE FIFER Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 when we put results in the local papers most of them now put them in the SPORTS page, so a we bit of encouragement, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dogeon Posted December 1, 2007 Report Share Posted December 1, 2007 This is the comment I objected to No reply to my idea then?????? NO WONDER PIGEON RACING IS AS IT IS!! I AM WILLING TO MAKE A STAND AND NO-ONE IS TAKING IT SERIOUSLY. Most of you guys are more interrested in the annual dance... What are you all scared of, most of you are all talk and willing to sit back and let the true fanciers do the hard work? Bring it on! Ha its laughable!!! Not only you but everyone on here has a life as well as pigeons, that's why we want to talk about blackpool as well other issues on the site, not made to feel guilty because we are committed to other things both on and off the site Pigeon racing is the only part of pigeon keeping that is any chance of being recognised as a sport Any other part will be considered a hobby, a business a past time or a way of life, but as a pigeon forum we should support all parts of pigeon keeping unlike others on the site. Without the roots the tree will soon die and topple also without the branches it would soon become onesided and crooked. i agree with you, im not digging but tic eye hen if you read all of the thread except parts of it you will see 1 writting to mp's was already mentioned before you had, and we are all doing our bit. also i know that i mentioned a pertition well before you did, and im not going to no dance. 2 i know that the RPRA represents Irland, scotland and wales if you read the rest of the thread and go to the RPRA web site, you will see that it was a QUOTE TAKEN FROM THE RPRA WEB SITE so dont shoot the QUOTER, and yes im already taken that up with them. doing my bit there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Vic Posted December 1, 2007 Report Share Posted December 1, 2007 Is it no small wonder that we have the small wheels of government on our backs? There are too many free loaders within the game at the present time. A good percentage of pigeonmen, these days are in the game to make money, stop! Some of the presentations of our game, by so called experts, via the media, have left a lot to be desired. i.e. the one loft races , have portrayed the pigeon fraternity as money launderers. The genuine guys are leaving in their droves because of the influx of these greedy *expletive removed*.There is a lot of money in the game, the accomadation ads for Blackpool have well started. Do you moaners think that this present day game is still a sport? Some so called pigeon flyers, are investing small fortunes into these one loft affairs, and by doing so are curtailing the pigeon game as we know it. Do you think it goes unnoticed? > Vic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 1, 2007 Report Share Posted December 1, 2007 Vic, I for one still feel that pigeon racing is a sport. I agree totally that there are many people in the game who are after nothing other than profit from it, we unfortunatley have some amongst our ranks on this very site. However, if people want to sell pigeons, that is their perogative, and they are free to do so, within reason. I understand wherre you are coming from as regards the media presentations of the sport highlighting things to the government, but I personally, do not feel that the one loft races are curtailing the game. They are "additional" and create extra interest for those fanciers that have both the money and desire to race their birds in that manner. Isn't that what freedom is all about, Choice? We all have the choice to enter or not, to buy or not, to sell or not. If someone wants to enter a one loft race, why should anyone else begrudge them the opportunity? If someone wanted to stop you from competing in a National Race that you were particularly keen on, would you accept it? I wouldn't think so, so why should those that find one loft races appealing have their interests curtailed? If the one loft races are run for the right reasons, then in my opinion they are good for the sport. I ran the English International One Loft Races in both 2003 and 2004. I actually personally sponsored the 2004 event for several thousands of pounds out of my own pocket. It was a good success, and raised much needed revenue for my two local clubs. We charged 125 quid per bird. 25 quid administration costs was split between the two clubs, with the other 100 quid being flown for by the entrants. We had 4 training races prior to the main event, all with cash prizes for the winners of those. Our real money spinner was the sale of the birds after the main event was over. 50% of the sale revenue went back to the original entrant, with the other 50% going to the two clubs. Many of the entrants got their fee paid back, some more so! Yours truly pocketed not a penny, everything was either flown for, or split between the two clubs! There was no personal gain for me whatsoever, other than seeing the life breathed into my two clubs. Therefore, as i said, if they are run for the right reasons, in my opinion, they are good for the sport. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DOVEScot Posted December 2, 2007 Report Share Posted December 2, 2007 Vic, I for one still feel that pigeon racing is a sport. I agree totally that there are many people in the game who are after nothing other than profit from it, we unfortunatley have some amongst our ranks on this very site. However, if people want to sell pigeons, that is their perogative, and they are free to do so, within reason. I understand wherre you are coming from as regards the media presentations of the sport highlighting things to the government, but I personally, do not feel that the one loft races are curtailing the game. They are "additional" and create extra interest for those fanciers that have both the money and desire to race their birds in that manner. Isn't that what freedom is all about, Choice? We all have the choice to enter or not, to buy or not, to sell or not. If someone wants to enter a one loft race, why should anyone else begrudge them the opportunity? If someone wanted to stop you from competing in a National Race that you were particularly keen on, would you accept it? I wouldn't think so, so why should those that find one loft races appealing have their interests curtailed? If the one loft races are run for the right reasons, then in my opinion they are good for the sport. I ran the English International One Loft Races in both 2003 and 2004. I actually personally sponsored the 2004 event for several thousands of pounds out of my own pocket. It was a good success, and raised much needed revenue for my two local clubs. We charged 125 quid per bird. 25 quid administration costs was split between the two clubs, with the other 100 quid being flown for by the entrants. We had 4 training races prior to the main event, all with cash prizes for the winners of those. Our real money spinner was the sale of the birds after the main event was over. 50% of the sale revenue went back to the original entrant, with the other 50% going to the two clubs. Many of the entrants got their fee paid back, some more so! Yours truly pocketed not a penny, everything was either flown for, or split between the two clubs! There was no personal gain for me whatsoever, other than seeing the life breathed into my two clubs. Therefore, as i said, if they are run for the right reasons, in my opinion, they are good for the sport. The sad thing is that the media do not sell their stories or productions highlighting all the good things in life, they are notorious for shock a sleaze angle on a story. If they want to they could make mountain ranges out of a mole hill, just to make money. That is why the million dollar race programme was produced and aired and not the others that are boring and without incident. I bet if one of the birds that won your one loft races Davey shat on the Queen it would be in every media circus in the world :D :D :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 2, 2007 Report Share Posted December 2, 2007 The sad thing is that the media do not sell their stories or productions highlighting all the good things in life, they are notorious for shock a sleaze angle on a story. If they want to they could make mountain ranges out of a mole hill, just to make money. That is why the million dollar race programme was produced and aired and not the others that are boring and without incident. I bet if one of the birds that won your one loft races Davey shat on the Queen it would be in every media circus in the world :D :D :D PMSL Duncan. Aye, that would be my luck, i actually purchased the two winners, aswell as a few others i really liked, so it would have been me that was hauled off to the Tower of London by the Beefeaters! I bet i would have made a good picture and headline on the front of the national papers, "Dark Helmet be-helmeted!" ;D You are right in what you say though, the good things hardly ever get reported. Maybe thats our own fault as we the public would probably leave the newspapers alone that had headlines like, "nice lad wins motorbike in charity raffle," and go for "drugged up yobbo kills three on stolen motorcycle!" Personally, i don't read much of newspapers, apart from the sports pages as its always bad news! Then again, reading about my footy team lately is usually bad news aswell! :-/ ;D But, you are right in what you say, and just to clear any confusion to others, none of my birds have ever messed with or on any members of the Royal family! ;D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Vic Posted December 2, 2007 Report Share Posted December 2, 2007 Dark Helmet, Fair comment. But nobody will ever convince me, that one loft racing is good for the game. This once proud SPORT of ours, in the last decade or so, has been infected by human parasites that are only content on bleeding us all dry. Internal squabbles from these so called, one loft race camps, leave a lot to be desired. And to see one of the "big boys" flaunting his easily earned assets, on National TV was sickening indeed. Pigeon racing was a sport, pre Blackpool Show days, but has become a Gamblers game ever since. The cloth cap image has disappeared, to be replaced by greedy *expletive removed* using the game to launder money.Who invited the Friday, Saturday, and Sunday selling merchants to Blackpool, which is supposed to be a charitable weekend? Shame on all concerned! Vic. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 2, 2007 Report Share Posted December 2, 2007 Dark Helmet, Fair comment. But nobody will ever convince me, that one loft racing is good for the game. This once proud SPORT of ours, in the last decade or so, has been infected by human parasites that are only content on bleeding us all dry. Internal squabbles from these so called, one loft race camps, leave a lot to be desired. And to see one of the "big boys" flaunting his easily earned assets, on National TV was sickening indeed. Pigeon racing was a sport, pre Blackpool Show days, but has become a Gamblers game ever since. The cloth cap image has disappeared, to be replaced by greedy *expletive removed* using the game to launder money.Who invited the Friday, Saturday, and Sunday selling merchants to Blackpool, which is supposed to be a charitable weekend? Shame on all concerned! Vic. > Vic, your comments are fair aswell, but not all the one loft races are being run for the right reasons! The TV programme you reference for me could have been handled a bit better. The best part in my opinion was the old guy with the poorly wife. I was praying he won the jackpot! The "big boy" you reference, to be fair spent quite a bit of money, his own money, and gambled the race would pay off for him and it did. So credit to him for that, it could quite have easily bit the dust and cost him a small fortune. The gamble was his choice, not ours. None of the entrants were forced to go in it, they CHOSE to enter, and thats the freedom i referenced that we all are lucky to enjoy! Just as in normal racing, not all can be winners, but those that won prizes will have been well happy with things. I stand by my original comment, if the one loft races are being run for the right reasons, then they are good for the sport! Whether we like them or not, they are now part and parcel of our game, and the media has unfortunately picked up on this particular part. It would be better if they had highlighted the charity work that comes from us, or the sports changes over the years, passing down the generations of families, etc, but as Dovescot quite rightly points out, that sort of thing does not make interesting news. I've been going to the Blackpool Show since i was about 12 years of age, i'm nearing 41 now, and as long as i can remember, there have been sales and sellers there! I've been to many of them myself, chasing the rainbow! I agree its supposed to be a charity event, but the sellers pay their dues for the stands in the show aswell, so they should be entitled to sell there wares. Is that not what helps pay for show itself? Its not that often they get such a big percentage of the fancy together in one place, so for them it could be their biggest time of the year for sales. Like i said, we aren't forced to purchase from them, but we do. And the charity's still get their money, so why really should it be an issue? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Vic Posted December 2, 2007 Report Share Posted December 2, 2007 Dark Helmet, I am not talking about the stands within the show itself, but the "outsiders" who use this so caled "charitable gathering" event, for their own ends. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 2, 2007 Report Share Posted December 2, 2007 Dark Helmet, I am not talking about the stands within the show itself, but the "outsiders" who use this so caled "charitable gathering" event, for their own ends. Thats a fair point, and these salesmen might not be exactly ethical, but like i said, without wishing to sound hypocritical, i have been guilty, just like thousands and thousands of others, of going to these sales, of chasing the rainbow. We aren't forced to go, we go cos we want to try to get the best we can. If the charity sale is on, but there isn't a bird i fancy, but theres a sale elsewhere with one that has my mouth watering, then thats the one i'm going to. However, if its the other way round, then its the charity sale i'm going to. Choice and freedom, thats the point. To stop these private sales is stopping people's freedom. You and I, we dont have to go. Ethical or not, we go because we want to go. Does that make us bad people? I donate to many charities / good causes each and every year, and help new starters and strugglers alike, just as much. BUT, I only go to Blackpool, to purchase pigeons that i feel will improve my loft and its performances, if i can afford them. Am i a bad person because of this? This year will be different, i'm buying nothing apart from a few drinks at the pb get together, so i am only going this year to meet up with the friends i have made from this website. The Blackpool Show is not just charity Vic, its an annual get together for the fancy. The charity's are benefitting despite these rightly or wrongly run sales, and long may they continue to do so! We can't stop the external sales, and personally, i wouldn't want to, as stopping them, in my opinion, wouldn't be ethical either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tic eye Hen Posted December 3, 2007 Report Share Posted December 3, 2007 Think you getting me mixed up with ticeye!! I am tic eye hen. i agree with you, im not digging but tic eye hen if you read all of the thread except parts of it you will see 1 writting to mp's was already mentioned before you had, and we are all doing our bit. also i know that i mentioned a pertition well before you did, and im not going to no dance. 2 i know that the RPRA represents Irland, scotland and wales if you read the rest of the thread and go to the RPRA web site, you will see that it was a QUOTE TAKEN FROM THE RPRA WEB SITE so dont shoot the QUOTER, and yes im already taken that up with them. doing my bit there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tic eye Hen Posted December 3, 2007 Report Share Posted December 3, 2007 I am not getting involved in any bitchy comments so I will not be commenting on this thread again. But I will still do my bit for the sport. Yes we all have a right to speak our minds and air our thoughts. As far as I am concerned this is my sport and it is damm hard work, time consuming, demanding, stressful, emotional, expensive and you know what I love it. I do have alot to learn tho, as I have only been doing it for 3 years (7 wins this season), I am dedicated and will not let people dictate to me. I am very strong minded and strong willed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dogeon Posted December 3, 2007 Report Share Posted December 3, 2007 Think you getting me mixed up with ticeye!! I am tic eye hen. TIC EYE HEN I DO "APPOLAGIZE" i sould be the one that reads the thread as i only saw tic eye and i responded to dovescot thread about you "SORRY" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sammy Posted December 3, 2007 Report Share Posted December 3, 2007 I am very strong minded and strong willed. that you being a typical women then good on yu what you are doing and hope it pays off for you wish i had the same enthusiasam for it ;D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.