Myths with no Credence.

[Guest Freebird]

Enjoying this thread. Like the way you think Roland, you obviously do a lot of thinking:0) The input from Oldyellow is good as well. This makes for good education for us novices who reap the benifits from our "elders" just like the birds. Thanks and keep it up.

[OLDYELLOW]

Am i being facetious ( spelt correctly ) no im not more factual than whitty . The loft you gave as an example was firstly a bad one and one that still did not support your statement. At no point in your orginal post did you say that overcrowding was a myth for bad management. In my young bird section which is 6ft x 6ft x 2 meters high, i have v- perches there are 50 of them i have another wall which is blank and a part wall if i added another 45 perches in this section there would be 95 perches so what your saying that would be fine and will hold 95 pigeons as they would all have a perch and dont forget the trap i suppose that could sit six pigeons , but i recon 1 dominant cock would kick them all off, then theres the floor space perhaps another 25 birds as im on deep litter so in all 130 birds i could have in here . My loft will hold 40 pigeons 36 even better. If your statement was true then why do we need sectional breeding boxes to breed these flock loving non territorial non fighting pigeons in ? a small 1ft shelve and could have all the nesting bowls next to each other

[OLDYELLOW]

was told this once: the next time you think your arguing with an idiot , step back and evaluate and make sure your not doing the same

[ChrisMaidment08]

over croweding my view birds argue all the tme dont rest  dont get enough to eat floor space taken by dominant cocks fighting all day end result unhappr birds un happy home result loss/s

[Roland]

Alan done that in early 80's, 83 / 84 I'd say, as I started two doors away from him in 86...

Gary Edmunds, was early 90's. One season just racing his y/b's... then 4/5 seasons of domination. He use to say to a couple of old timers... Pool this bird of mine and they'd win. Barry use to pool all his open birds - his Uncle. Barry incidently just passed Gary's record of 4 consequative Fed wins... 2 years back.

National winners to boot have their 'Articles' for all to see. Not even traned as y/b's. A couple of training tosses, 150 - 250 miles first race! Another, never trained his y/b's, nor as yearlings, 2 races and topping Pau ... A good article on this would be John Willis article... Of our Rose,

Quoted '' I believe there is a few around, on the BICC Website / Elimar's

[Roland]

over croweding my view birds argue all the tme dont rest  dont get enough to eat floor space taken by dominant cocks fighting all day end result unhappr birds un happy home result loss/s

 

That is the whole scenario... they have TOO much room. So they DON'T move around too much for starters as they don't leave their posts for a second longer than need be! They also eat together, and as soon as one leaves the hopper they all nip up quick. AND the do, and are relaxed and content because THE Widowerhood cock isn't leaving his post either.

[Roland]

Old yellow wrote  quote ' At no point in your orginal post did you say that overcrowding was a myth for bad management. In my young bird section which is 6ft x 6ft x 2 meters high, i have v- perches there are 50 of them i have another wall which is blank and a part wall if i added another 45 perches in this section there would be 95 perches so what your saying that would be fine and will hold 95 pigeons as they would all have a perch and dont forget the trap i suppose that could sit six pigeons.

 

WELL from the top, it is exactly that, if onedoesn't have a system that caters for the birds correctly then that is 'Bad manegerment'!  So if one has WET floors for instance there are 2/3 reasons or more... Bad managerment leaves it as such! Nothing at all to do with the amount of birds in the loft. So one just says 'Over Crowding'!

If you had 120 birds in that section old Yellow - my favourite film that - provided that there was adequate ventilation then NO it wouldn't be over crowded.

 

How much air does a pigeon breathe a day? Indeed how much does it need a day. Now if fresh air is passing in / through and out the loft and being replaced by such, just where and how can that be detrimental to their well being?

Most lofts today have set backs in regards so called pigeons health. Yet this are mainly brought one , I believe, via the present day fanciers of today and the past 40 years.. progressed worst.

the old back garden that had12 pairs in a 8 x 6 that raised a round and half, catered for them easily in their stride and flew nigh every race and the Loft competed in every race of the program, both old bird and young birds alike.

[Roland]

was told this once: the next time you think your arguing with an idiot , step back and evaluate and make sure your not doing the same

 

Blind argueing with the unseeing lol ;D

[Roland]

Besides, no one says that a carrying box is inadequate... 2/3 /4 birds with just a few holes punched in.... and they are ceratianly legal and meet strictist requirements.

Just think about the scenario where some fanciers have the birds - either sex for any number of reasons - where the even feed and water them in their box. Now as long as there is air passing by, because it ceratianly won't go upto and through the back, or up through the ceiling, everything is hunka dory. Add to that they excise / freedom, and just where is there a measure of how many.

If I put a load of Rabbit hutches side by side and four on top of them and put them in rows with a gap, then surround them with a wire mesh, just how long o high can i go...? Till I reach nex door's I persume. Add to that a false roof like a canopy a foot over their head, just when do they become over crowded?

[Roland]

OldYellow quoted ...'you claim that overcrowding is a myth , as i can clearly give you 2 examples that it is a problem and you even said that more birds housed then viruses spread quicker so even you admit that it's a problem , so i cant understand why it's a myth ?

 

Well catching any Virus / illness has nothing to do with amount of birds. That is either airbourne, or caught when away from the lofts initially. Granted it may well cause a quicker spread and run through the whole loft, but as I have explained, that in it's self is of no consequence, in deed may well be a good thing.

[OLDYELLOW]

eperdemic / pandemic viral out breaks , air bourn bacteria, faeces ,contaminated water,poor air quality all these reasons not to keep birds overcrowded most diseases are from bad management and poor obsevation granted but in my opinion if you have too many birds in one area then your asking for trouble and if people want to house there birds like this i hope they know a good vet because any disease entering the loft will run straight through the flock , in the past i have had yb sickness and had it for 2 years last 8 years clear, as you say let it go through your flock as they will suppress it and get over it with a little help and will illiminate the weeker pigeons with a poor constitution. Too many pigeons will also result in them getting respiritry due to bad air , and for the fancier psitticosiss or pigeon  lung ( newcastle disease ) . Keep your birds as you want , overcrowded lofts make a god haven for poorly underperforming pigeons. Good debate , ill think ill have to agree to disagree .  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

[pigeonscout]

It is their' nature, and try as one might, as soon as one nest is up, others join, and you know what, there may well be stacks of better - in our eyes - places and ledges etc. Stacks of room! And where do they go... you've got it, as close as possible to another nest and on it goes. IT is their nature, their very essence.

 

 

If you have 60 pigeons in one section and then open up another section they will split up into both sections and if you go one further and open a third section they will also use this third section. so if what you say about pigeons is true then why do they not all want to stay in the same section.

 

[Roland]

Still a closeness... Ever seen any build a nest up the top of the yard.. or away from the loft? Underneath granted.

[pigeonscout]

Still a closeness... Ever seen any build a nest up the top of the yard.. or away from the loft? Underneath granted.

 

The point I was making is that birds do not like over crowding and if given the choice will give themselves more room. I can not speak for your birds but my birds like their own space and will fight for it if they wanted company and closeness they would not mind sharing their space.

[Roland]

 

The point I was making is that birds do not like over crowding and if given the choice will give themselves more room. I can not speak for your birds but my birds like their own space and will fight for it if they wanted company and closeness they would not mind sharing their space.

 

Not realy, they command a 'Pecking' distance, and use a threathening posture.

Never seen one in a lot where there are lots, and no spare perches where a bird will go and shift another, then go back to it's own perch. You'll see that happen often when there is plenty of room and spare perches. Indeed there will be one or two that just chase the hell out of others for the sheer delight! Won't if they have an establised perch. Especially one that another might occupy quickly. Will relate a post a very true story later, about a fancier that had masses of room and was adamant that a big fault was so - called overcrowding.

[Roland]

have put up that true fact under another heading.

[pigeonscout]

I ask myself, which of the worlds top 100 fanciers overcrowd their lofts so as to have better birds?

[Roland]

pigeonscout, I can't help but think you believe that number mean 'Overcrowding'. In a proper inviroment with fresh water and feed and air in abundance, just in golly's name can they be worst off. Indeed just where is your yardstick? It has to do with Birds x cubic feet x wjhat I perfer, Nothing, no where where has the ctual condition of the birds been challegned. That should tell you something!

Pigeons are by nature a flocking bird that loves and thrives on a naturual enviroment of more. Every where you look, they always gather more... not less.

Now how can one state that 'over crowding' EVER HAPPENS unless it is Bad Managerment!?

Proper ventilation and etc. means healyhy and happier birds and stress free. Which makes contentment. Without that nothing is possible. Now degrees of content only serve for better results.

So one must strive to accomadate NATURE and as same time MANAGE the birds with a proper system.

As I say, you seem to confuse 'Bad managerment with a easy crutch of Over Crowding.... NO such thing... Bad managerment yes of course.

[Guest]

Overcrowding as you state is not overcrowding at all. It's down to bad managerment. As long as they have a perch that allows them to breathe easierly, then it's not overcrowding. How many pigeons could roost in a tree till they became over crowded? Indeed three trees?

A tree full or 3 trees full

 

(happy)

[Roland]

I ask myself, which of the worlds top 100 fanciers overcrowd their lofts so as to have better birds?

 

The simple answer to that Pigeonscout is...

Very few I should think ... but by your yard stick at least 55% to 85%!

[Lennut Tar]

pigeonscout, I can't help but think you believe that number mean 'Overcrowding'. In a proper inviroment with fresh water and feed and air in abundance, just in golly's name can they be worst off. Indeed just where is your yardstick? It has to do with Birds x cubic feet x wjhat I perfer, Nothing, no where where has the ctual condition of the birds been challegned. That should tell you something!

Pigeons are by nature a flocking bird that loves and thrives on a naturual enviroment of more. Every where you look, they always gather more... not less.

Now how can one state that 'over crowding' EVER HAPPENS unless it is Bad Managerment!?

Proper ventilation and etc. means healyhy and happier birds and stress free. Which makes contentment. Without that nothing is possible. Now degrees of content only serve for better results.

So one must strive to accomadate NATURE and as same time MANAGE the birds with a proper system.

As I say, you seem to confuse 'Bad managerment with a easy crutch of Over Crowding.... NO such thing... Bad managerment yes of course.

 

Interesting topic   ;) & it could go on for ever etc with all the different views one could say. For myself !!!!!!!!! I've often been fascinated with the views etc here & on other sites, in relation to overcrowding in your lofts. Absolute load of bunkum  ;D ;D ;D for what I have seen in my time   :) One example !!!!!!!!! I just happen to toss at weekends (By chance)   ;) with one of the best flyers in the country down here (No Bullshit) & he will have up to 230 pigeons in his loft etc which is 20 ft by 7ft & it's dug 2 ft into the ground to boot, so it's below the fence line, so no one can see it etc when walking past on the other side of the fence. Now !!!!!!!! when he wishes to give the birds  ;D ;D ;D a treat   :) because he has run out of perches etc, all he does is place half bricks around the floor to make them all happy & guess what   :P   it works a treat for him. So all you purists/theory men here "PMSL" forget about it all (Plenty of space) because in my view ??????????? those views are more for you than the pigeons for what I have seen.

Enjoy.

 

 

[pigeonscout]

 

Interesting topic   ;) & it could go on for ever etc with all the different views one could say. For myself !!!!!!!!! I've often been fascinated with the views etc here & on other sites, in relation to overcrowding in your lofts. Absolute load of bunkum  ;D ;D ;D for what I have seen in my time   :) One example !!!!!!!!! I just happen to toss at weekends (By chance)   ;) with one of the best flyers in the country down here (No Bullshit) & he will have up to 230 pigeons in his loft etc which is 20 ft by 7ft & it's dug 2 ft into the ground to boot, so it's below the fence line, so no one can see it etc when walking past on the other side of the fence. Now !!!!!!!! when he wishes to give the birds  ;D ;D ;D a treat   :) because he has run out of perches etc, all he does is place half bricks around the floor to make them all happy & guess what   :P   it works a treat for him. So all you purists/theory men here "PMSL" forget about it all (Plenty of space) because in my view ??????????? those views are more for you than the pigeons for what I have seen.

Enjoy.

 

 

what do you call this fancier

 

[ChrisMaidment08]

 

what do you call this fancier

joke          i, m , fictinol

 

[ChrisMaidment08]

but its an intresting thread

[pigeonscout]

read this

http://www.pigeonbasics.com/articles/article79.html