very inbred stock birds

[slinky slitheroe]

has anybody had much success with these very very inbred pigeons which louella in particular sell for stock purposes I understand they are bred that way for crossing ive tried a few over the years but to be honest have been disapointed with them . Dont you think it looks good on paper but wheres the proof that these very inbred pigeons breed better than say a pigeon with four unrelated grandparents

[Guest]

has anybody had much success with these very very inbred pigeons which louella in particular sell for stock purposes I understand they are bred that way for crossing ive tried a few over the years but to be honest have been disapointed with them . Dont you think it looks good on paper but wheres the proof that these very inbred pigeons breed better than say a pigeon with four unrelated grandparents

:)first cross is the best cross

 

 

[just ask me]

takes all kinds really what i do advise when buying anything wether that be croosed or inbred buy young that way the person that selling it dont know how good it is as a breeder  

[Guest Owen]

Inbreeding only works properly if it is targeted. To do this you would have to carry out progeny testing. Which means that selection must be ruthless. The sort of inbreeding that Louella goes in for is too hit and miss to be successful very often. If you seriously want to produce hybrid vigour, which is the point of inbreeding, you need to be able to use birds that are related and are also winners. And you will need at least two families, kept separate, to do it.

I think a more practicle solution is to breed winners to winners. Always mating short distance winners together and long distance winners together. Obviously that is where possible. I do this by employing the bull system which means in practice that I never breed from non-winning cocks. All this years youngsters are from 3 cocks. Each of them are multiple winners. Gradually, I am getting to the stage when the hens are sired by winning cocks. Sometimes I am able to use hens that are winners as young birds, which is ideal. Please don't take what I have said the wrong way. I am not breeding winners in every nest. What I am doing is breeding birds that are better at not getting lost and my percentage of reliable birds is improving all the time.

[thunderboult]

when i first started in pigeons(2004 yb's) i bought 4 performance busschaerts(2 cocks/2 hens no pedigrees) and 2 jan ardens(cock+hen g,g-children of champions) from louella all six have bred multiple winner's or prizewinner's. i crossed all six of them.  

[chaz]

I think the inbreeding has to have been done in the right way inbreeding is easy, good/correct inbreeding a bit harder, you need to be inbreeding to either a top performance pigeon or a proven producer of performance pigeons and then cull very hard until you are left with the best of the bunch then if your intention is to cross start looking for a bird that has been bred along similar lines and pair them together and hopefully produce birds with the hybrid vigour,

 

although a bit dated the "Old Hand"  book "The Strain Makers" is a good basic read on breeding a line/family/strain through the correct use of inbreeding

[just ask me]

I think the inbreeding has to have been done in the right way inbreeding is easy, good/correct inbreeding a bit harder, you need to be inbreeding to either a top performance pigeon or a proven producer of performance pigeons and then cull very hard until you are left with the best of the bunch then if your intention is to cross start looking for a bird that has been bred along similar lines and pair them together and hopefully produce birds with the hybrid vigour,

 

although a bit dated the "Old Hand"  book "The Strain Makers" is a good basic read on breeding a line/family/strain through the correct use of inbreeding

 

what a book to read some of feeding methods might be out of date but the breeding part class

[Guest Owen]

I much prefer to bred with unrelated pigeons that are proven winners. After all, that is what nature does. Most male animals have to compete with each other to be able to breed. And it is only the best that gets the job. The stronger the male the more he will sire. Without doubt, the wild animals mate with close relations because they would not discriminate about relationships. But the important thing is, that the progeny would fall by the wayside if they did not measure up to the highest standards. The strongest survive to breed the next generation.

I currently use three multiple winning cocks on the bull system. They are mated to the best daughters from each other. I think that it is possible that each of the three cocks have differant reasons why they are so good. Sooner or later I will breed one that combines all the talents of all three cocks together in one bird. This type of breeding is what I call target breeding. I ignore, size, shape, colour and anything that is not performance. My only selection criterior is the birds' race results. Nothing else.

I agree that inbreeding is ideal for show standards, where size, shape colour and things you can see are the things that matter. Unfortunately, that sort of breeding usually brings a lot of undesirable baggage with it. Hip displasia, ingrowing eyelashes, and a host of other nasty side effects. But where we are looking for qualities we can not see and are mainly psychological, I can not see how we can hope to get anywhere if we clutter our selection with things that do not matter. Our job is surely about testing the product of our work. The only way we can do that is by careful training and management, but finally it will come down to racing the birds in really good competition. And,just like in nature, only the fittest will be allowed to breed.

[Guest]

I much prefer to bred with unrelated pigeons that are proven winners. After all, that is what nature does. Most male animals have to compete with each other to be able to breed. And it is only the best that gets the job. The stronger the male the more he will sire. Without doubt, the wild animals mate with close relations because they would not discriminate about relationships. But the important thing is, that the progeny would fall by the wayside if they did not measure up to the highest standards. The strongest survive to breed the next generation.

I currently use three multiple winning cocks on the bull system. They are mated to the best daughters from each other. I think that it is possible that each of the three cocks have differant reasons why they are so good. Sooner or later I will breed one that combines all the talents of all three cocks together in one bird. This type of breeding is what I call target breeding. I ignore, size, shape, colour and anything that is not performance. My only selection criterior is the birds' race results. Nothing else.

I agree that inbreeding is ideal for show standards, where size, shape colour and things you can see are the things that matter. Unfortunately, that sort of breeding usually brings a lot of undesirable baggage with it. Hip displasia, ingrowing eyelashes, and a host of other nasty side effects. But where we are looking for qualities we can not see and are mainly psychological, I can not see how we can hope to get anywhere if we clutter our selection with things that do not matter. Our job is surely about testing the product of our work. The only way we can do that is by careful training and management, but finally it will come down to racing the birds in really good competition. And,just like in nature, only the fittest will be allowed to breed.

 

 

Owen, i like your straight talking honesty very much. We had a cracking racing cock many years ago that won our Selby race (78 miles) every time he went. Selby being the first race on our programme. But couldn't do anything after that. As soon as Selby came around though, bang ..... he won again. We ended up giving him away to a freind. The friend bred a bird out of him that was 2nd UNC Bourges 570 miles. The cock honestly couldn't go past Selby! This bird would have been missed on your system, but it may have been a fluke, a one off. I must admit, the way you are practising your breeding method makes a lot of sense, and I sincerelly think you are on the right road. I think you could be in for a team of real quality performance racers there mate. Very interesting posts.   Would love to hear how your method progresses in the future.

Dave

[Guest Owen]

Dicky Darky

I am very glad of the chance to be involved with this forum because I can write about my ideas and read about the ideas of others. Thanks for your comments. And yes, I will definately keep you informed about my progress. In addition to what I wrote about regarding my thoughts on breeding, I give birds away every year so that they can be tried by other people who may not have the same system as me. Some of my birds are doing well in other hands. One of them has won 1st National and 3x2nd Nationals. And I have had quite a lot of birds with good National positions. One white hen won, I think, 10x1st Clubs and goodness knows how many minor prizes.  I never accept rings from others to go on the birds I breed because I want to be able to keep track of them. I get quite a buzz out of seeing my ring numbers in the results.