Question and answers on eyes

[Roland]

 

Question No 1.

 

What are the four main things to take into consideration before looking into a pigeon’s eye.

 

The light conditions at the time of your examination.

 

The outward looking appearance or condition of the subject.

 

The kind of equipment (eye-glass) being used for the purpose.

 

The age of the subject.

 

I don't feel the need to explain these simple and obvious things in detail at this point as they are basically self explanatory however, if you do have any questions, regardless of how silly you may feel about asking them or, about not understanding any part of the above, please ask me at this point and I shall give you the full and truthful answers as promised. I cannot read minds so please, take this opportunity to ask. This is your chance to get the REAL facts and the truth first hand.

 

Question No 2.

 

How old must a pigeon be before you can start looking into it's eye.

 

With practice, an eye-sign exponent can look at the eye in birds as young as 5 day's old. This is because the eye is created during incubation and, all the features which will be most obvious later on in the bird’s life are there right from the word go. They only developed more and become more obvious with age. The kind of eye the bird is born with will be the same type of eye it dies with. They never change from what they were originally. I.E. Racing eye's do not developed into breeding eyes.

 

Some people have difficulty seeing the eye features in young babies but, there is one way to observe these eyes which makes the various features more easy to see and that is to, let the light enter the eye from the side so that it glances across the whole image you are looking at. This will enhance the features which can be found in there as the birds get older.

 

The need for this information in birds so young is to enable the selected young bird to receive all the extra attention it can get to ensure that it's upbringing was the best available as a single nester. These birds should be the ones you would enter in those hight $ paying out of town Classic races????

 

Question No 3.

 

What is the very first and foremost thing you will learn by looking into a pigeon’s eye.

 

The answer to this question is. The general health AND MEDICAL HISTORY OF THE BIRD.

 

The very first thing to look at in the eye is the pupil. This is the large Black area right in the centre of the eye. It is the key to all that you will ever need to know about the bird’s present health and general medical history.

 

The pupil should be as black as can be without any variation to the colour what so ever. The blacker the better. Any variation to this colour should be immediately investigated.

 

There is a condition which occurs in pigeons called Cellerosis.

 

This appears as a milky like substance found within the black pupil. It gives the eye an opaque or misty looking appearance.

 

When this condition is found, you can stop looking further at the eye because the remaining eye features will be ruined as a consequence.

 

There are several things which can bring about this condition the main one being OLD AGE but. Malnutrition can also be the cause of the same effect as can outright abuse and or neglect.

 

Pigeons are not the only things that suffer from this complaint and it is very common in old canines (dogs) and cats and even some humans developed it during old age.

 

The vision is very much impaired by it's presence so freedom to fly is out of the question and there is no cure or reversal for the condition.

 

While on the subject of Pupils. I shall now dispel another fallacy which is being touted around incorrectly, and that is the belief that oval pupils denote the long distance pigeon. THIS IS INCORRECT.

 

It is true that certain individual families do exist that have oval pupils which "in that particular family" do depict this ability but, GENERALLY speaking (and I as a teacher MUST talk in general terms) this is not the case.

 

There are just as many Champion long distance winners out there with round pupils as there are with oval ones.

 

If this feature is a part of the overall makeup of the eye's of your family of birds, then by all means observe it, note it and multiply the birds with them but, if not, do not be in the least bit concerned because, it is by no means a "pre requisite" of the long distance pigeon.

 

The last thing you should do is to suggest that a friend should also regard the same feature if found in his birds as denoting that ability also, you will more often than not be wrong.

 

Study your own birds to the full, and in a short while you will be the only person who will know what each and every feature, good and bad, means and denotes in them. If you learn to do this correctly. No one, regardless of who, should be able to tell you anything about your birds that you didn't already know.

 

[Roland]

Question No 4

 

How many rings can be found in a pigeons eye and can you name them.

 

I have seen eye's with 11 even 12 rings in them but the real question is. Is this number of rings question really important.

 

The answer is very simple, NO. It isn't a matter of quantity but, quality that really matters.

 

There are 7 basic rings in the eye which the pigeon man should concentrate on and these make up the basis of the entire subject.

 

Starting from the pupil and moving outward toward the outside of the eye, they are called. 1 THE CIRCLE OF ADAPTATION. 2 THE CIRCLE OF CORRELATION OR EYE-SIGN. 3 THE CIRCLE OF SERRATION. 4 THE INNER DUAL CIRCLES OF THE IRIS. 5 THE IRIS PROPER. 6 THE OUTER DUAL CIRCLES. 7 THE VERMAYEN RING OR, THE CIRCLE OF HEALTH.

 

There are people who try from time to time to change these names which were originally given by the discoverers of the subject, but I prefer to use the traditional names which I also feel helps to eliminate any confusion caused by changing the long established and traditional names. The value and significance of each will be discussed at a later time.

 

Questions No 5 and 6.

 

How many circles are there in the Single tubed eye and what makes it so outstanding compared to other eyes.

 

The Single tubed eye was first discovered back in the sixties by me and has in it's short existence proved to be a major break away from the tried and true eye's of the old Masters.

 

At first these eyes I'm sure were discarded by many because of the washed out looking appearance of them.

 

But in my travels looking at birds which had performed far above the norm, I began to realise that this kind of eye was to be found in some truly remarkable birds.

 

To this day they are still among the most sorts after of all eyes and for very obvious reasons. Reliability. They deliver the goods, especially in the harder or tougher smash races.

 

The one thing that distinguishes them from the rest, is the absence of the underlying clear jells like tube in the base of the Iris.

 

The single tubed eye does not display this underlying tube but instead, shows only the top tube which is the blood filled tube that carries blood to the eye which in turn warms and activates the eye.

 

If you look closely at the inner dual circle area of the iris, you can often see, by looking between the gaps of the loosely arranged pattern of the two tubes, each tube quite clearly displayed one on top of the other with the top tube being the only one in which blood is carried to the eye. Why this is so and what the second tube is filled with is unknown. But, when the underlying tube is missing from the eye, then that is a Single Tubed eye.

 

Like all things in this subject, they are easy to recognise with practice.

 

Question No 7.

 

Speed lines, if not the faster birds then what do they signify.

 

Speed lines were first described by a friend of mine who worked for the British Homing World. His job was to travel around England and Europe photographing the eyes and birds of distinction.

 

He was at one time regarded by many as the best in his field and I still use many of his photographs in my seminars.

 

He concluded that the faster birds could be recognised by these lines which radiate out from the centre of the eye like spokes in a wheel. Unfortunately he was wrong.

 

His findings were published in the press and eventually became accepted as being true and accurate through comparisons made with the winningest birds around at the time.

 

So why was he wrong.

 

Most experienced pigeon flyers will agree that not all birds can handle the higher velocities reached in many races throughout a season.

 

These are commonly called, Blow Homes.

 

Often these entail speeds of 100+ MPH. Although we do not know for sure why this is it has been suggested that they are ill equipped for the task in some way or, that they are just plain scarred by the experience.

 

The simple truth is that, we don't know for sure why this is but, this doesn't explain why there are certain birds which do show a REPETITIVE ability to do just that.

 

It was in such birds as these that the speed lines were first discovered and, misinterpreted as signifying the faster birds. They are NOT faster birds but, are the ones with the ability to handle the higher velocities and any claims to the contrary as FALSE.

 

 

The final conclusion is that speed lines can be used as an indicator of the bird with an ability to handle the higher velocities reached in blow homes but. DON'T BET THE FARM ON IT. It is not all that accurate of a sign.

[Roland]

The ability to breed good racing offspring has nothing to do with it's flying ability. It is not a detriment of any kind but an attribute or bonus. That's why the dual purpose bird is by far the most important bird of them all. It does everything.

The only time the better breeding ability of the one will come to the fore and prove to be better than the other is in the breeding box. Other than that, it's a toss up as to which bird will perform the best. They will alternate from week to week.

[Roland]

 

 

At weaning time, the pigeon man has nothing he can use to determine the true capabilities of his newly raised team except the race basket.

 

The average healthy pigeon looks exactly like the rest and gives little indication that it just might be the elusive Champion we all dream about one day owning.

 

These birds are born almost annually on a regular basis. They are unbeatable and win out of turn under almost any conditions and management systems. Over the years I have made it a point to pay special attention to these birds in an attempt to find out exactly what it is that makes them so different with athletic abilities far and above those of the normal racing pigeon.

 

I have never did discover why they are what they are however, I have discovered that they do share certain eye features. The following is the result of my studies of them over the last 40 years or so.

 

I know of at least 17 of these eye features but of these only five will regularly be found in the eyes of true Champions and most of these can be clearly seen at the very young age of one month old.

 

This is just another way in which the eye-sign man can find himself with a slight advantage over his fellow competitors. In the order of outright value and importance, I shall list them accordingly.

 

No 1 Clusters.

No 2 Drifting pigment in the pupil.

No 3 Smudges and or wires in the eye.

No 4 Combine eye style racing composition.

No 5 A flat enamelled looking Iris.

 

Though there are many more signs that depict racing ability, these are the most reliable and by far the most significant pointers to any pending Champion.

 

Taking them in that order, I shall tell you more about each one in turn.

 

The Cluster. I believe I have said enough about these eye's in the past and that they need no further explanation at this point in time.

 

The same applies to the next on the list which is the same eye as the Cluster but in a different stage of development.

 

No 3 Smudges and wire is another thing all together. This is best seen on the Van Breeman site in the eye picture of the bird called KEISER.

 

If you look closely at this eye, you can see that there are dark lines appearing beneath the iris which runs from the inside of the eye near the pupil, out toward the outer edge like spokes in a wheel. These are called smudges and wires.

 

Some times they can be found in large numbers in the eye and on other occasions there are only one or two lines visible. Keisers eye contains several thin lines and these are spread around the eye in various locations. The locations where they are found have no bearing on the bird’s value.

 

These lines also come in another form which is more like a wider dark area beneath the iris and looks more like a dark patch or blob located under the iris and is covered by the pigment of the eye together with the capillaries which form the coloured part of the iris.

 

No 4. This is another of my own discoveries and is called the Combine eye. It's existence was first divulged on this site less than two years ago and since then, I have had literally hundreds of them reported to me from around the world.

 

Where the pigment on the eye-sign ring can be seen to end or stop cleanly and abruptly, and NOT fade away gradually as in the normal eye, this bird will usually be a combine winner for you.

 

There are 19 of them amongst the eyes on the Van Breeman site, can you find them?

 

No 5. The iris of the flying Champion is usually a flat looking iris which looks as if it is made up of many coats of paint as it were. You could even be excused for describing it as being flat and unimpressive. Not quite washed out looking but not far from it. SEE KEISER AGAIN.

 

This is the eye of the that fools most eye-sign men and often turns out to be another discovery of mine I called the Single Tubed eye, which though it has been described before, shall be discussed in detail at a later time when I am able to post pictures of some with my new scanner which is supposed to be especially made for this purpose?????

 

I will also explain why this eye is listed as being No 5 in order of value as a flyer, despite it's reputation as being a smash race winner.

 

The some what brief explanations of the eyes were not originally intended but, I felt I could not in all fairness just post the answers without some kind of explanation of each. I am sorry for the long windedness of them.

 

I trust you enjoy them and gain some more insight into this subject.

[Roland]

Now that's enough for now, but another 20 or so to come.

[Guest]

Roland a Fleminite and obviously a very committed one, enjoyed reading, no doubt Fleming was quite a pioneer. Unfortunately he also turned out to be a conman and not very nice man. I realise he's dead but what i have posted here I posted on line on PIPA when he was alive and posting on there.

 

In my opinion if you follow the Fleming line you will never be consistent or succesful, there will be great birds that have many of the attributes mentioned but that's not why they are great birds, there will also be rubbish birds with these attributes.

 

However if you are interested in 'eye sign', again in my opinion Roland provides an excellent base.

But the best advise I would say is to study your own birds, if you are lucky enough to have some good winners and good breeders you have a head start because if you compare them to the also rans and you are observant and have an open mind then you will learn a lot.

[Roland]

' ... you have a head start because if you compare them to the also rans and you are observant and have an open mind then you will learn a lot....'

I also believe Albear that that is indeed 70% of everything in regards pigeons.

Some will see - observe - in 10 minutes what many will neve in a life time.

[Roland]

When you find a Cluster in the eye of a bird REGARDLESS OF WHAT THE EYE IS LIKE, DOMINANT VIOLET'S INCLUDED, you can CONFIDENTLY forget the rest of the signs in that eye and the same applies if it's a so called bad eye.

If it has a Cluster, it can't possibly have a bad eye. The presence of the Cluster cancels out everything else.

I make this rather strong comment only after having examined many many thousands of them since 1953 and as a result of asking the right questions about them. The stories from the owners are always the same. "IT'S MY BEST BIRD" And the flying and breeding records of them is often staggering.

If there is something that can turn a novice into an overnight ace, it has got to be a bird with a Cluster. Large ones or small! Cock or Hen! Left or Right eye or both! It doesn't matter in the least.

This is also why I say that the discovery of them was the greatest and most important BREAKTHROUGH in the history of the subject and sport and I'm proud of it.

Call me a big head, call me what you like, I've heard it all before and don't care. It's true and this FACT has been PROVEN many. Many of thousands of times around the world and they are still being discovered and proven to this very day.

To my critics I can only ask this. What's your contribution to the subject or sport that others HAVE benefited from??

 

Even Stan Bishop, (the farther of the subject) and Charlie George his assistant and scribe said that they had seen them for years but, never for one minute realized what they signified. His words were. I couldn't see the forest for the trees.

 

Answer to questions No 10 and 11.

HOW MANY WAYS ARE THERE TO DETERMIN IF A BIRD REALLY DOES HAVE A DOMINANT VIOLET EYE.

There are three ways to determine a Dominant Violet Eye.

These are 1. Recognition by examination! (In other words, by looking at it and recognising it accordingly)

No 2. By discovering the phenomenal breeding record of the suspect. It is not unusual to hear about them producing 20 and 30 individual winners.

No 3. By examining the multitude of other coloured eyes produced from the suspect.

Answer to questions No 12 and 13.

How many different kinds of Green eye's are there?

The green eye comes to us in two basic types. The DOMINANT and the RECESSIVE.

But to save time space and confusion, I shall also include the answer to question No 13 at the same time by saying that they also come in the RACING. BREEDING. And DUAL PURPOSE categories are as to the afore mentioned VIOLETS.

Answers to questions No 14 and 15.

 

HOW MANY KINDS OF VIOLET EYE'S ARE THERE AND WHAT ARE THEY?

As was just mentioned above. The Violet eye comes in the very same types and categories as the Greens.

These being. The DOMINANT and RECESSIVE. And in the RACING, BREEDING, and DUAL PURPOSE categories.

Answers to questions No's 16 17 and 18.

 

The thing that distinguishes one kind of Cluster from another is the "PIGMENT" which forms it.

 

If you look closely at this pigment in any eye, you will see that it resembles tiny bead like particles.

 

These beads come in three different sizes and make up the basic colour of the eye. E G. Pearl (from the grey beads) or yellow from the yellow beads.

 

This pigment is found throughout the whole eye commencing at the pupil and covering the eye-sign circle then extending as a "BASE" covering of the sphincter shaped Cilliary muscle, from the edge of the pupil to the outer edge of the eye.

 

The entire iris is built on this base which in coloured eye's, is covered with this same pigment which is also responsible for the formation of almost all the other features we see in the eyes.

 

If you look closely you will also notice that the pigmented beads are positioned on the base in a deliberate order of three individual layers, one atop of the other.

 

This order being, the smallest of the beads are at the bottom of the laters, followed by the next or middle sized beads, and finally the larger of them being on the top or, the outer surface of the coloured areas.

 

To the lay person this information may seem boring and insignificant however, rest assured, as your knowledge of the subject grows, you will soon realize that it is of paramount importance to know these things and especially when selecting a mate for the bird in question?????????????

 

Therefore, to answer the original question which was? How many different kinds of Clusters are there?

 

Let's look at a breakdown of the possibilities.

 

NO 1 Being. The Cluster which is comprised of all and only LARGE beads, which resemble small grains of sand or salt in the pupil.

 

No 2 Comprised of all small beads. (Appearing like fine powder and even a misty effect in the pupil)

 

No 3 Comprised of only the middle sized beads. (Talcum powder size beads) but still quite visible.

 

No 4 The Cluster which is comprised of beads of all three sizes.

 

No 5 finally, the one made up of only two sizes of beads of which there are 3 possibilities?

 

The percentages of each in the makeup do not seem to be of any importance.

 

So the answer to the original question is. There are basically 7 different kinds of Clusters depending on their makeup.

 

Finally on this same question. Which is the most proponents Cluster as a breeder or flyer.

 

The simple truth is that they are all as proponent as each other. There is no such thing as a dominant Cluster or a positive or negative Cluster or even a male and female Cluster.

 

But not all Clusters succeed as promised, and these are the ones which have been mated INCORRECTLY. There is a right and wrong way to do this which has been covered before and can be found in the archives on this subject.

[Roland]

Answer to question No 19 and 20.

 

How many proven way's are there to select a mate for a Cluster. What are they

 

To answer this question I will relate a little story about a friend of mine Called Dennis Shaw.

 

Dennis was a dedicated flyer who would stop at nothing to win and his success which was quite good was due to this competative nature and attitude which was also a characteristic of his own families personalities. His farther was a Champion cyclist of Olympic caliber and also a very good pigeon flyer in his day.

 

Dennis flew in my club in Sth Australia, and after the release of my book in which I revealed for the first time ever the facts about the Cluster eye's. He set off on a mission to buy beg steal or borrow every Cluster eye'd bird he could get his hands on, and he did.

 

Exactly howmany he actually ended up with I never found out but, he was the happiest guy you ever met now that he had this information and was going to set the world on fire because of it.

 

Needless to say. It didn't take long for him to start telling me of the successes of some of them BUT, he also pointed out that there were also many failures???

 

This of course gave me cause for concern until after examining some of his matings and this was when I discovered that he had made a fatal error in his pairings.

 

You see dear reader, what Dennis had over looked in his eagerness to be an ace, was the one and only rule you cannot ever break when mating birds by eye-sign.

 

The method was discovered originally back over 500 years earlier than Giggot by a man called Abdule Fassule, in the land of Persia.(Turkey today) And was used as per his recommendations by Giggot back long before 1848 during HIS developement of the long distance racing pigeon which, when he tried them out for the very first time at the 1848 worlds fair in London held at the Chrystal Palace. Were the first long distance racing pigeons ever seen and, later because of their success, were called approprietly, The Antwerps. Named after the city from whence they came and subsiquently flew back home to.

 

There are very few rules in the breeding of racing pigeons which are cast in bronze as it were. Some one out there in pigeon land will be able to show where they had just as much success by doing the exact opposite to what the rules say you should. Except THE RULE OF MATING.

 

If I had to, I could condense the technique down into one word, and that would be "CONTRAST"

 

If you look it up in a dictionary, you will find that it is the "visible difference" between say two colours. EG. BLACK and WHITE. YELLOW and PEARL?? Gray circles and yellow ones etc etc.

 

Therefore, the rule is that you MUST use a Contrast, of the many colours as it is possible to find in the eye's of your breeders and even SOME of the other eye features.

 

If there ever was a secret to anything in this subject, it was this rule of CONTRASTING the eye colours of the parents in the breeding stock, to IMPROVE the QUALITY of the off spring being bred to be over and above that of the parent birds.

 

In my fifty years of HANDS ON breeding of pigeons, I have NEVER been able to prove this one rule wrong dispite many many thousands of pairings for myself and others around this world.

 

The letters of agreement which I received after the release of my book were in the thousands confirming what I had recommended as being factual and many of these came from none believers in the subject of eye-sign.

 

I would pass on that same advise to you today, Always contrast the colours of eye's of your breeders when ever possible.

 

NEVER mate two eye's of "identicle" colours together. If you have a family of yellow eyed birds, mate the Old Gold yellow's with the pale Daffodil yellow or, the butter cup yellow but, never the same colour.

 

The dark pearls to the light pearls and if these are not different, then you may have to resort to using the eye-sign circles to find your contrast but regardless of which it is, use it, THE BETTER THE CONTRAST THE BETTER THE MATING.

 

This will give you the desired improvements you so badly want and need I promise you AND, you will breed a "wider variety" of contrastable coloured eye's to continue on with into a never ending future.

 

This information also explains fully why the Greens and Violet eye's are such a prolific breeders of good birds. Because they are in complete CONTRAST with ALL the other colours appearing in the eye's of our birds.

 

A final word on this subject.

 

Never confuse the contrasting of colours, with contrasting the eye features. A wide circle to a narrow one. THIS ADVISE IS TOTALLY WRONG. You will only decrease the overall width of eye'sign in the young produced by doing this.

 

Retain what you have in the cock by "matching" it with a hen of equal strength and width if possible, BUT A DIFFERENT COLOUR.

 

The single tubed eye which I have mentioned so many times on here is also explained by this word contrast. It too is in complete contrast to all the other eye's found in our birds and this is clearly why they too breed good birds so prolifically.

 

Now I hope you have a some what deeper appreciation for my insistance that you cannot teach this subject PARROT FASHION from what you read in books, You also cannot learn it that way and anyone who say's you can, and believes you don't need hands on experience is talking out of his...... hat.  And the beat goes on.

[Roland]

Answer to question No 22.

 

Does light enter the eye through the iris proper.

 

Who cares????ha ha ha  

 

But in all truth. NO IT DOESN'T. It isn't known if the cilliary body (that's the brown base you see in the bull eye which is completely without pigment covering it) is responsible for the constant changing size of the aperture of the pupil, or the retina at the back of the eye. However, which ever it is, it most certainly isn't the pigment in the iris that causes the changes.

 

Perhaps the light sensitive cells that do cause it are to be found on the surface of cilliary body itself, It certainly looks that way when you watch it under a scope as light is played onto it? I DON'T KNOW AND WILL NOT GUESS OR SPECULATE but, neither does anyone else in the scientific comunity.

 

Fortunately, it isn't of much importance to the eye-sign exponent so don't be overly concerned.

 

There is one thing for sure though. If you could scrape away the pigment from within an eye, you would find as did and have many times, that as soon as the pigment is removed, the eye then changes to being nothing more than a plain old every day BULL EYE???

 

And that's the "only" difference between them and the ordinary pigmented eye or coloured eye. The presence of pigment.

 

Please, don't let anyone try to tell you that the bull eye is faulty or that the birds with them cannot see properly. They can see just as well as any other eye. Either In the dark or the brightest day.

 

I have had them come in the dark throughout the night many times, and won blow homes and hard races with bull eyed birds, not to mention that one of the best stock birds I ever owned also had a bull eye.

 

I have reached a point now that pictures are a must from here on out so.

 

When the new kind of scanner arrives this week, hopefully I will be able to post some interesting pictures which demonstrate all the things I have talked about perfectly, and also the pictures of the eye of a double 500 mile L/A Combine winner owned by Lawrence Bauber of the Disneyland Llofts, which shows very clearly the TWO LAYERS of blood veins and capilliaries that make up the iris proper.

 

Unfortunately this picture also Blows away Bill Richardsons theory of the eye heart cooling thing which it wasn't intended to do but, O Well??? The truth will prevail.

 

Those at the seminar saw these pictures for the first time but, now you will all see them as promissed together with the single tubed eye's.

[Roland]

Answer to No 23.

 

I am throwing this answer in because it is so quick and easy that and any real eye-sign man would have known it in a heart beat.

 

What do the Greens and Violets have in common.

 

There are in fact two answers to this question both of which are correct.

 

The first of these is that they both share a common ancestor.

 

The second being that, you cannot breed one without the use of the other.

 

In other words. It's like the words of the old Sinatra song. Love and Marriage. You can't have one without the......other. And if you think you can, your only fooling yourself.

 

The third thing they have in common is that they are both at the "TOP" of the ladder when it comes to breeding better pigeons.

 

BECAUSE THEY ARE IN COMPLETE "CONTRAST" TO ALL THE OTHER COLOURS OF EYE'S FOUND IN OUR BIRDS.

 

More to follow.

[Roland]

Answer to No 24.

 

Name three families that were recognizable by their eye colours.

 

Sions. Janssens. Bricoux. Jan Ardens. Hansseines. Gurnays. Jurions. Beckearts. Devrendts. Puttries.

Question.  let see if I'm getting you right.

What you're saying is that when the homing pigeon was created, via the original breeds, that these originals posessed violets and greens, but thru breeding were deteriorated to lesser quality eyes?

Answer: … there is no better breeder than Mother Nature.

 

She sorts out the weak and the inferior and eliminates them by all kind's of what appears to us as cruel, but they go on regardless.

 

Where there Violet and Greens came from to begin with???? This we will never know but, when you get the time or chance, have a look at any assortment of wild pigeons especially the Smerls and the old English carrier etc, and you'll see what I'm what I'm talking about. Perfection, each and everyone of them. And the same applies to ANY wild bird.

 

These are the real thoroughbreds. They all look alike to a greater degree of perfection than you and I will ever reach with our systems. But, of course she has much longer to perfect her progeny and, is not controlled by a need to win races.

 

Did we through being incorrect in and line breeding eliminate the Violets and the Greens

Question: Which colour is recessive to the other (VIOLET, GREEN)? If you cannot produce one without the other, then one must carry the other???

Answer: To Pete. That's an eye-sign question for sure. The answer is that. They both will produce each other direct. In other words. The Green will produce offspring which are Violet and visa versa. And this goes on right down to the great, great, great stage. So you tell me????? It isn't easy to do but, the Violet can be bred back in if it was not too far back in the ancestry. This is why you must keep accurate records of such things.

[timbarra]

roland hi mate, i just read your piece on green and violet eyes which is recessive,  well mate there are only 2 base colours of eyes and that is yellow dominent and white recessive, white eyed pigeons will only bred white eyed pigeons when paired together, but will breed yellow pigeons if paired to a yellow eye, this pairing will also breed white eyes if the yellow eyed pigeon carrys the recessive gene for whit, check this with your birds mate, you will find i am right. white paired to white will only breed white.

 

speak soon mate best wishes spencer

[Guest]

Roland spot on with the cluster, top pigeons, I take my hat off to Fleming on this point only,one of the most exciting discoveries in the pigeon eye, when his book came out in the 70's I thought it was fantastic!!.

Timbarra my wife has never been interseted in eyes of any kind (except mine ;D) and even she can tell you that white / blue in humans is recessive and will only bred its like when paired together, check the agony aunt pages in the sun and you can even get this information there now and again..............though she is a scientist............to bloody clever by half!!!!