Guest Posted February 18, 2008 Report Share Posted February 18, 2008 dont want to learn much,do i ???? LOL Ted, the point is, you won't learn unless you ask! Keep asking mate, its making interesting reading! Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bewted Posted February 18, 2008 Report Share Posted February 18, 2008 I don't profess to know a thing about eye sign but I do know if I go to the opticians for an eye check by looking at the eye he/she can tell as to your state of health and if there is anything sinister lurking about underneath it maybe the eye is the gateway to inner health, who knows It is never right to dismiss anything out of hand there is good in most things and gives an option to look at things in a different light. It's the diversity of pigeons that makes the subject so exciting if we were all the same or thought the same it would be pointless racing the game would be fighting for second place as we would all be "winners". fair play heres your chance to learn from eyesign,just keep an open mind and,if,your not sure,then ask jack,who will only be to pleased to explain further for you,,,it took me a little while to understand it about 20 odd years ago and i dont know much now as just got back into pigeons after 20 odd years or more,jack has been a great teacher and an inspiration to eyesign students !! just sitback and read and digest fair play !!! regards ted Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bewted Posted February 18, 2008 Report Share Posted February 18, 2008 LOL Ted, the point is, you won't learn unless you ask! Keep asking mate, its making interesting reading! Dave hi dave wheres your questions then ? ;D ;D ;D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 18, 2008 Report Share Posted February 18, 2008 hi dave wheres your questions then ? ;D ;D ;D I'm just enjoying yours and the other "respectful" lads questions Ted, i'm happy that we've eventually got a "clean" thread! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bewted Posted February 18, 2008 Report Share Posted February 18, 2008 I'm just enjoying yours and the other "respectful" lads questions Ted, i'm happy that we've eventually got a "clean" thread! me too dave !! all i want to do is learn from jack as theres no other so called eyesign expert on here with as much knowledge !! then i want to apply it to the breeding side of it !!! just a nice clean eyesign lessons has got me stuck in this chair and pc in front of me reading jacks words over and over again to digest i all !!! i am in heaven now !!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bewted Posted February 18, 2008 Report Share Posted February 18, 2008 jack do you evaluate both eyes for eyesign ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Barkel Posted February 18, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2008 I now wish to portray the composite which is super imposed on the adaptation, the particular eye we are using did not have any composite, just a yellow clear adaptation as seen in the previous illustration. I have however shaded in a 40% composite on one illustration, and a 100% composite on the other. This composite is known as the racing sign and comes in various shades from grey to deep black. The shades of grey are referred to as "dilute" and the deep black as "super imposed". I have found that when pairing birds together it is best if the addition of the composite signs of a matched pair do not exceed 100%. I prefer two 30 0r 40% composites together. One must take care that if one has a pigeon they wish to breed from that has a 100% composite, then this bird should be paired to a Clear of the opposite colour eye. If we put two 100% birds together we may breed a top racer, but that is all in most cases, in other words a pure sport. That is why many people advocate putting winner to winner, for if they were flying machines we will find that very often they possessed 100% composite signs. Many fanciers on making this discovery think they have hit on the greatest revelation of all time eye selection. Soon their new team of winners using this formula degenerate into little of value. If it were not so, I could pair up your birds to breed winner after winner and stock birds to match. Unfortunately there is no loft that can maintain a constant high success rate putting winner to winner or excess composite together. Be prepared if attempting this, to experience short lived joy and thereafter plenty disappointments. Therefore I would suggest that you treat the composite as a serious factor and use it as a long term tool, and not as a short term benefit. If you pair an adaptation that is Clear to a similar adaptation, you will in the main breed birds with little racing quality but good stock producers,although once again I must add that a few may pop up out of the gene pool with racing ability. Vice Versa, if you pair birds together with over an addition of 100% composite you will produce mainly racers with little breeding ability,although once again a dual purpose racer breeder may at odd times pop up from such a concentrated gene pool. Genetics have played worse tricks than this when we get involved in the art of breeding. Nothing is written in stone, but be prepared how accurate can be the advise I am giving here. Again I am here for anyone that would wish me to elaborate on any particular aspect of what we have discussed up until now. Regards jackbarkel@mweb.co.za http://mysite.mweb.co.za/residents/jackbarkel/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Barkel Posted February 18, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2008 Hello Ted, Yes I evaluate by looking in both eyes, to do one eye is to do but half the job. Unless one is a bull eye and then you have no other option but to evaluate it on the one eye. Regards Jack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bewted Posted February 18, 2008 Report Share Posted February 18, 2008 when valuating both eyes,would your complete evaluation be the worse eye of the two ? i think i asked that right !!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Barkel Posted February 18, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2008 Hello Ted, Most eyes are nearly the same, but yes often through an illness one eye will detereiorate and that is the eye you must judge the bird on. In other words what it is today and not what it was at a previous time. Regards Jack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bewted Posted February 18, 2008 Report Share Posted February 18, 2008 jack if both circles next to the pupil are solid black,no colour what so ever,these would make breeders and good loft stock ? one with a black circle and another pigeon with a full circle yellow,these would be good for breeders in stock loft too ? hope i ask these questions right ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timbarra Posted February 18, 2008 Report Share Posted February 18, 2008 Hi Jack, a quick question as I just read the article, does genetics play a big enough role in eyesign evaluation? I believe it should and this is only my opinion, but am curious to know what you have found to be beneficial to eyesign ? kindest regards spencer. ps . hope your well sir. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Barkel Posted February 18, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2008 Ted, A pigeon can have solid composite, and if the other circles are not of equal quality, it will be Just A Racer/ Not For Stock. If all circles in the eye are good, if it is a pearl eyed pigeon it should be paired to a yellow clear eyed pigeon. If it is a yellow eyed pigeon it should be paired to a pearl clear. Regards Jack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Barkel Posted February 18, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2008 Hello Spencer, I believe that genetics plays the major part in eye sign evaluation, recognition and pairing. I believe I have got the recognition of genetic drift in the genes of our pigeons down to an art where I can use it to the advantage of the breeder. I believe that all illnesses, major accidents and stress can be seen in the eye. I believe the genes places all these things in the eye where we can use it to our advantage. There can be no other reason for the variables and changes in eye sign. Best Regards Jack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Barkel Posted February 18, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2008 We now come to the fifth circle or breeding circle, and in the illustration we can see that it is the same colour and width as the adaptation. The bird with this eye was a prolific breeder and although it displayed no composite sign it was a double winner. I do believe from my breeding records over the years that it is very important to have the adaptation and fifth circle as near in colour and width to each other as is possible. It is very difficult to produce anything perfect when breeding anything that has been interfered with by humans, but it is possible to get very close to perfection. The closer I have come to producing well balanced eyes, the greater my successes have been. We will deal with the iris next, then display this eye when it is complete. Regards jackbarkel@mweb.co.za http://mysite.mweb.co.za/residents/jackbarkel/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bewted Posted February 18, 2008 Report Share Posted February 18, 2008 if the adaptation circle is wider than the fifth or vice versa,what will this tell you for breeding purposes and quality of there offspring ? regards ted Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bewted Posted February 18, 2008 Report Share Posted February 18, 2008 if the adaptation circle is wider than the fifth or vice versa,what will this tell you for breeding purposes and quality of there offspring ? regards ted this dont sound quite right to me,sorry,i hope you can understand the question !!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Barkel Posted February 18, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2008 Hello Ted, The eye needs to have these balances that I have recommended. If the adaptation is not near equal to the fifth circle, the percentage of good pigeons reduces in numbers. I have found that well regulated pairing of good eyes can give from 50% to a 90 % first class progeny produced. The average statistics throughout the world is 7% acceptable. I say if a person has the right eyes, why mess around with pigeons for stock that show they have a lot of imponderables swimming around in their gene pool. We will only get out what we put in. We must try and create the correct gene pool with the material we have available. Regards Jack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bewted Posted February 18, 2008 Report Share Posted February 18, 2008 thank you jack so,am i right in saying that,if,you get two birds,one with narrow inner circle and wider 5 circle and another pigeon wide inner circle and narrow 5 circle,,,,,the two bred together will not even out the circles to get them both even ? ,,,,,,,sorry this question might sound silly to some,but,just to satisfy my curiosity ???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Barkel Posted February 18, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2008 Hello Ted, The question is not silly, in fact it is possible, but usually takes careful breeding and selection for three to four generations. I say gradually breed the pigeon you want from near perfect eyes. This is the only way I know to halt the genetic drift and stay as near as possible within the parameters. Regards Jack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ch pied Posted February 18, 2008 Report Share Posted February 18, 2008 Yes Ted, You are correct, I would never keep a pigeon that did not have a reactive pupil. Caution here as some pupils react to light slower than others, give the pupil time to react, before making a final desicion. Regards Jack jack , now you have my attention , ( OPEN MINDED ) with in the study of the eye , when we ween y / bird's , pupil reaction is checked and if found to be v/slow . a mark is put againest them , when raced they are the first to go down,,,yours in sport Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bewted Posted February 18, 2008 Report Share Posted February 18, 2008 jack , now you have my attention , ( OPEN MINDED ) with in the study of the eye , when we ween y / bird's , pupil reaction is checked and if found to be v/slow . a mark is put againest them , when raced they are the first to go down,,,yours in sport well done cheq pied,just keep an open mind and you will learn all before you,it may take a bit of practise and time,but,it will all fall into place sooner or later !!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Barkel Posted February 19, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2008 We now come to the final segment of the eye, which is the iris. This is the fourth circle and like the adaptation and composite is controlled by our breeding techniques, for its width and texture is of human design. The iris comes in various depths and shades of colour, but the basic colours are deep pink, known as the genetic pearl, and orange red known as the genetic yellow. There are two ways we can observe degeneration from the perfect racer / breeder when viewing this particular portion of the eye. If the iris is becoming too wide or broad, it will eventually dominate the whole eye, covering most and sometimes all of the correlation and fifth circle. This will indicate a major drop in vitality and speed, but a gain of increased stamina. These are usually long distance homers that are hard to lose but often seem to be just out of the clock. They can be consistent, but very rarely can they be called a winner. As we showed in Article 1. of this thread, if the iris becomes too thin, the correlation can be seen to be breaking through the iris. It may be seen as a widening of the correlation and or a widening of the fifth circle, with several breaks in what should be a solid iris ring. This will indicate that one is breeding towards pigeons with reduced stamina and intelligence( homing ability) These are blow home pigeons with increased speed, but if it cannot stay in the pack it will invariably get lost. These are short distance pigeons that can be consistent for several weeks, until they eliminate themselves and never return. The attachment shows the iris of this pigeon to be of even and strict proportions, and it should be the aim of all of us to try and breed to similar parameters as this illustration. The answer to controlling this genetic drift is to breed the iris so that it does not dominate the eye, neither do we want to make it so thin, that the eye is dominated by everything else. Regards jackbarkel@mweb.co.za http://mysite.mweb.co.za/residents/jackbarkel/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Barkel Posted February 19, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2008 The iris although only one integral part of the five points of the eye, is the easiest to recognise if one is drifting in or out of genetic control. We will soon become expert if we pay strict observation to these points. Each small facet of the eye is important in our observations but these points are the basics to watch out for, and will serve you in good stead in selection of your stock birds. I put the eye in its completion on here to show you with all the arrows what this eye looks like when complete. One can observe a slight darkening of the fifth circle to that of the adaptation. Unfortunately the flash did not give the same light intensity for the full expanse of the eye, darkening a little towards the outer extremities. For those interested it is the eye of a Slimme Cock named " The Bill Carney Cock" named after that great eye sign man in England of the same name. The bird was a 1988 pigeon and passed on Christmas week 2006, a sad loss although infertile for a few years. It father is still alive in the loft today, although fragile he is 22 years old. I hope you have enjoyed the descriptions of the sphincter muscles of a pigeons eye. We will next return to Article 2 which should have been the second article on this thread. Regards jackbarkel@mweb.co.za http://mysite.mweb.co.za/residents/jackbarkel/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timbarra Posted February 19, 2008 Report Share Posted February 19, 2008 Hi Jack, I totally agree with you that the general health of any individual can be seen in the eye , especially our pigeons. I also think eyes are gentically link , as all aspects of the pigeon. can you just explain what you mean by genetic drift exactly?? i not sure I understand this term correctly and do not want to mis understand anything. I can see you have a great discussion with Bewted and please do not think i am gate crashing it, i am just trying to follow it a little . I do have my views , but am willing to listen and keep my opinion to myself, I think this shall always be a grey area for some but we can only all pull the same way and maybe then fanciers will realise eyesign is here to stay in which ever form we term to use it. regards spencer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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