DUBLINFLYER Posted March 10, 2008 Report Share Posted March 10, 2008 ive being reading this tread from day 1 and find it very very intersting and will continue to read as long as you are willing to write, i for one can never be educated enough, so please carry on...... if you will thanks again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest anthony Posted March 10, 2008 Report Share Posted March 10, 2008 Hello Jack Please proceed with your writings,we all can learn from them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bewted Posted March 12, 2008 Report Share Posted March 12, 2008 hello jack as mentioned before many months ago,you said mate a pearl eyed cock bird with his yellow eyed daughter and the daughter from that mating to go back to the pearl eyed again,,,,,,how many times can you carry this on for to keep breeding back to yellow eyed daughters,hope that is right way to ask you !!!! best regards ted !!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Barkel Posted March 12, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 12, 2008 Hello Ted, We are going to go through this again, but the answer is I have done it without regress seven times, but usually within three to four generations you will achieve what you are looking for. Regards Jack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Barkel Posted March 12, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 12, 2008 Introduction to my methods on controlled breeding. I do believe from my travels to many parts of the world while evaluating pigeons, that the average fancier is not aware how to reproduce their top stock cock. Many are of the opinion that a son of a top stock cock that may be the same colour and pattern is the reproduction of this original sire. This is a misconception, because to the unenlightened, the pigeon geneticists although they are aware of the fact, have omitted to explain that although they are correct in saying a bird inherits 50% of its genes from both sire and dam, they omit to mention that a daughter inherits none of its sex genes from its mother. Based on this fact alone such statements are misleading, and they also fail to make it clear that because of genetic drift in the progeny of the pairing, the genes we are seeking to control are possibly never inherited 50 / 50 in any bird we are trying to breed. I am sure that this will make many of the purists hot under the collar, but I have never heard them refer to genetic drift, or even to its existence. To make it perfectly understandable what is genetic drift, it is plainly this. When the genes combine from a sire and dam to produce a new pigeon or pair of pigeons, the genes we are seeking will most certainly not be inherited fifty fifty, and may even drift towards some other ancestor introduced in the last three or four generations of uncontrolled parentage. This changing of the genes which often produces a bird entirely different to its parents is what we refer to in this case as genetic drift. Genetic drift also occurs in viruses in our pigeons, where an entirely new strain can emerge from the particular strain of virus as we know it, and for which when it first rears its ugly head we have no serum or antidote. This is not my field, but these medical scientists certainly know about genetic drift, and their frantic search to develop a cure. My whole point here is to make the reader understand that to breed a successful strain or family of pigeons, we must have an understanding of what genetic drift is, and try to control it in the genes we most desire to install in the progeny our selected pairings produce. What I have written here must be fully understood before I proceed with my methods of pairing and breeding. If anyone is not sure please ask and let me try and elaborate further before we proceed. Best Regards jackbarkel@mweb.co.za http://mysite.mweb.co.za/residents/jackbarkel/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timbarra Posted March 13, 2008 Report Share Posted March 13, 2008 Hello Jack, I agree with you in most of your statement, I know pigeons have 16 pairs of chromosones, the cock has 32 active chromosones and the hen 31 active chromosones , as the hen has a vacant Y chromosone which she passes on to her daughter, this Y chromosone has no genetic information. and can only be passed to her daughters who therefore then carry the vacant Y chromosone, I believe this is what your saying in another way and I agree. Could I ask , and thank you for explaining the genetic drift concept as I did not ( I openly admit) understand it fully. With regards to the genetic drift, saying that genetic material could be inherited from a family member or ancestor from certain previous generations, would I be correct in saying that the parents inherited this genetic information from them to pass on in the first place. which is a fact I know. I think we agree on this, I am shocked but smiling pleasantly , as this may be common ground for us!! Also would you not think that to control the genetics within your own gene pool, and I am saying in my own loft, would this not be best done by inbreeding and line breeding, as this closes the gene variation, as crossing pigeons only widens it and gives more variation. thanks Jack , I am not looking for conflict here just clarity to how some fanciers work, think, and employ their methods. regards spencer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Barkel Posted March 14, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 14, 2008 Hello Spencer, I concur with all what you have said in your last e-mail. We are about to start with articles on line breeding and inbreeding to replace a top stock cock and to concentrate the gene pool in the family. Regards Jack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Barkel Posted March 14, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 14, 2008 MY BREEDING METHODS Contd. I hope my next explanation will not make the reader lose interest, but I have to be sure that we understand that in pigeons the sire has the XX chromosomes, that is to say they are fixed, and the hen has the XY chromosomes which we refer to as the loose chromosome. The Y chromosome will denote the sex of the youngsters so the hen denotes the sex in pigeons, unlike a human being where the male denotes the sex and carries the XY chromosomes. Fanciers who are not aware of this fact become horribly unstuck when they try to pair pigeons the same as the laws of human genetics, for they are exactly the opposite. Consequently we cannot have a direct line from a hen as we can from a cock. This must be fully understood, for fanciers are still stating on forums that you should pair an old hen to its sons and grandsons. These are outcrosses and do not achieve any concentration of the hens genes that we are looking for. The only true line of descent is by pairing daughters, grand daughters, and great grand daughters back to the original sire. We do not have to take into consideration how many unrelated hens are selected for the original sire, as the daughters from these pairings will not inherit any of the sex genes from their mothers. Hence all the sex genes are inherited from their father, which is how we come to refer to true line of descent. Sex genes are those that contain, colour, vitality and stamina, and seem to be the main ones we need to harness to produce the offspring we are looking for. I am putting these sections on in small portions so that everyone can read and digest what I am trying to put across. I do not wish to make these segments long and boring for we need a working knowledge of every step of the way, and the reason for doing it. The next section deals with the selection and method of pairing selected stock pigeons. jackbarkel@mweb.co.za http://mysite.mweb.co.za/residents/jackbarkel/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bewted Posted March 14, 2008 Report Share Posted March 14, 2008 another interesting part jack !!! keep up the good work !!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timbarra Posted March 14, 2008 Report Share Posted March 14, 2008 Hello Jack, You state the daughter does not inherit any sex gene from the mother , but she does inherit the Y chromosone which would dictate to a degre more or less, that this Y chromosone possibly dectates a female ? Maybe I have this wire crossed and if wrong I stand corrected. I think this article is more of a bigger picture of eyesign and eyesign makes up a small part of the whole picture. I would consider genetics as a major role in any living thing, eyesign , wing, pedigree, and type are smaller parts of the whole. I think this section of your research and findings is great and I am enjoying this section very much, ( not patronising you) I would like to thank you for touching on this and giving very much detail in the post. I refered to genetics in our past massages as this is the most important sector of any living thing. Jack I am enjoying this, please continue. regards spencer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Barkel Posted March 14, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 14, 2008 Hello Spencer, Yes the Y chromosome of the hen dictates the sex, but it is not a sex gene. A hen inherits all its sex genes from its father. Regards Jack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Barkel Posted March 14, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 14, 2008 I would just like to add that eye sign, wing, body confirmation, are all genetic. So without the knowledge of how to recognise and select these most necessary attributes, and then, how to blend them, we can never hope to use our understanding of genetics to reproduce with regularity the genes we are seeking. The fanciers that have visited my lofts, can confirm, that you will rarely find familys of birds like these, that look as if they have all been cloned. Although most lofts have a 93% rejection rate when working to these parameters, I can fortunately say that my rejection rate is down to 10%. Many fanciers are champions using my methods, two more reported this week in South Africa, although I claim great success in many parts of the world on a regular basis. Regards Jack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Barkel Posted March 14, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 14, 2008 My Breeding Methods Contd-2. Armed with all the previous knowledge I have placed on this thread, I then select a cock which in our case is known to have the predominant bloodlines of a particular strain. This cock must have passed the scrutiny of having a near perfect eye, preferably a My Choice *****. He will be rejected if in conjunction with this attribute he does not possess a humerus bone close to the body, and a wing that shows no tendency to have a step through a shortening of the secondary flights. The wing preferred is shown here attached to this article, it shows plenty of cover over the back of the bird, highlighted with a black vertical line extending down the back of the bird. It also shows a highlighted black horizontal line along the secondary's accenting no shortening of these flights in relation to the first primary flight. Last but not least I prefer a long deep keel to suit what I believe to be other criteria in the conformity I intend to keep in my breeding lofts. I then select a hen with the opposite colour eye to this cock that I have selected for stud. That is to say, if the cocks eye is dominant ( yellow base ) then the hens eye must be recessive ( pearl base ), and once again it must have the best rating we can find. Please remember, a pearl eye is not as commonly referred to by some a White Eye, a pearl eye is a pale pink, this I can prove in anyone's presence without any shadow of doubt, and there is a reason for me insisting on this. Again all the physical attributes of this selected hen, must be as close to conforming as possible to those of the new stud sire. Now we are ready with our first pair of stock birds to start a breeding program. Next step will explain line breeding and inbreeding as I control it in my lofts. jackbarkel@mweb.co.za http://mysite.mweb.co.za/residents/jackbarkel/ P.S. I will be away from home all day Saturday evaluating and pairing pigeons, and will be unable to answer any questions before sometime Sunday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Barkel Posted March 16, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 16, 2008 My Breeding Methods Contd -3 From the daughters produced from the pair we matched together in Part 2 of breeding methods, we must select the hens with the opposite coloured eye to their father, that is to say, the same coloured eye as their mother. The eyes although a different colour should possess the outstanding characteristics of their father. They must also conform to the physical attributes we are looking for, which the father possesses. As yearlings these selected daughters must be paired back to their father, and similarly the following year the daughters from this union of father and daughter must be paired back to the original sire again. We will find that after three or four generations of breeding to perfect line of descent in this manner, that it is becoming increasingly difficult to produce hens with the opposite colour eye to the original sire. Also that the progeny from these line bred pairings are becoming more like the original sire with each generation we produce in this manner. By this time if we have selected and planned everything correctly as I have described here, we will find a certain male and female with all the characteristics of this original sire. These are your original line bred family and it will be noticeable to all discerning fanciers that visit your pigeon domain. From then the step to producing this original sire and top stock cock is simple. Only now do you pair this line bred brother and sister together, for now you are inbreeding in the true sense of the word, and only now do you put the same coloured eyes together, which is the eye of the original sire. The cocks you produce from this pairing will be exact replicas of the sire, from which you meticulously bred down to this perfect line of descent. Any deviation from this method as I have described it will prove disappointing, so make sure you do not attempt to introduce an idea or two of your own, for you will most certainly have wasted three or four years of hard work and selective breeding. Defining which is line breeding and inbreeding has always been a contentious issue. Many practice and even write about close breeding as being line breeding or in breeding when it can be proved in practice it is nothing of the kind, Cousins, half brother and sister and sons to mothers are still outcrosses. I cannot accept where anything but perfect line of descent, that is to say using one sire and breeding down the line to his daughters, grand daughters, and great grand daughters, which should all be his daughters also can be categorised as line breeding. Then after four generations of this practice to put brother to sister can then be determined in breeding. Let me finish this part by saying that any variation from this strict practice, only involves outcrosses, close breeding, and what I perceive to be guesswork of equations. If one is lucky such guesswork may produce one in ten or less of the genes we a seeking to fuse together. We have covered how to breed for stock, next issue will explain how from this to breed for racing and vitality. jackbarkel@mweb.co.za http://mysite.mweb.co.za/residents/jackbarkel/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bewted Posted March 16, 2008 Report Share Posted March 16, 2008 this is brilliant reading jack and much appreciated !! thank you very much best regards ted !!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timbarra Posted March 17, 2008 Report Share Posted March 17, 2008 Hello Spencer, Yes the Y chromosome of the hen dictates the sex, but it is not a sex gene. A hen inherits all its sex genes from its father. Regards Jack Hello Jack, does your last quote to me not sound contradictory ? the Y chromosone dictates the sex but is not the sex gene, ?? Maybe what you say is the X chromosone from the father carries the sex determination and therefore this X gene is the sex gene? if this is so would not every pigeon bred from the sire be a hen , due to the cock handing down a X chromosone to every young bred? Also as in your wing theory, could I please ask you ... I have 2 cock birds, GABRIEL 11X1ST PRIZE - 4X1ST FEDERATION. and BEER 55 23X1ST- 4X 1ST FEDERATION, Both have a step in the wing, would you then have selected these out on what you refer to as your opinion or what you like to see, which is only your preferance? I do have good birds with and without a step in the wing , so to me I give no relivance to the wing, but my preferance is to have a step between primary and secondary flights. Could we go further on the genetic side of things with your article because I do enjoy this subject and find what you have written interesting to pass some time reading. Also I have not known any top continental players to mate within a direction of sire to daughter , generation after generation as you surgest. Also you state that we should pair yellow eye to white eye, as in opposite colours, then after linebreeding state we should pair the same colour eye together? a contradiction. Also you say a pearl is a pink eye but constantly refer to it as white, I am not picking holes here , but your writtings could be misunderstood by many and therefore add to the confusion of what your trying to explain !! thanks again spencer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Barkel Posted March 17, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2008 Hello Spencer, 1.You are confusing a sex gene with the sex chromosome. 2.Pigeons with a step in the wing will not be good all round racers, that is to say from 150 Kilometres to a thousand kilometres, under 1150 metres per minute velocity. 3.The reason for eventually pairing brother to sister and the same coloured eye together is to reproduce the top stock cock. I stated, "THEN and only THEN do you do this". 4.I have always referred to it as a pearl and never a white eye, read my books or watch my video and DVD and you will see I strongly refute such an expression as a white eye. 5.I do not regard the continentals on a whole to be top breeders, they outcross all the time, and I do not say this is wrong, their method is to outcross with good pigeons, hoping to find the odd good one from such a pairing, wherever they can swap or buy throughout the continent. I have answered your line of questioning for the last time. I solemnly declare that I will never answer a question from you again, you keep coming back with a kindly manner, and after I accept your change of heart as it seems, you once again try and destroy that which is far beyond your knowledge and understanding. This thread is for those who wish to learn from my 68 years experience in pigeon keeping. jackbarkel@mweb.co.za http://mysite.mweb.co.za/residents/jackbarkel/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Posted March 17, 2008 Report Share Posted March 17, 2008 Happy St Patricks day to all,Sun is shining here,birds are motoring across the skies,all is well ,I look forward to Jacks input avidly,now again we have Timbarra,it was only a matter of time,looking for his 15 seconds of fame,I am not taking up the cudgel on behalf of Jack,read above,he is much more capable at this then ever I could be,rather for myself and possibily others,Timbarra let us listen and comprehend what Jack is telling us,we log on this thread for this reason,and not for your input,you have a thread,why not stay with it,and others who might wish to do so,surely you are not beyond this comprehension. Keep them coming Jack,there are those of us still capabale of learning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bewted Posted March 17, 2008 Report Share Posted March 17, 2008 timbarra,,,,i ask you before to kindly move yourself from jacks thread and start your own and i would ask you questions there,i looked at your thread and could not see anything that i could ask, as jack had already done what you done in your thread many months ago on pigeonbasics !!! i agree with jack that you are just nit picking at things that jack is so kindly explaining to all on here,i can follow his words and still do and would prefer to take his vast knowledge of 68 years than would on your thread.please remove yourself and let us that want to learn and ask questions if we dont know to jack !!! i have great respect for mr barkel and his vast knowledge and i dont want to lose out to some one like you for nit picking on things !!! SO/PLEASE REMOVE YOURSELF TO YOUR OWN THREAD YOU STARTED AND LEAVE JACKS THREAD ALONE !!! THANK YOU !!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Barkel Posted March 17, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2008 My Breeding Methods Final. Many will now be saying; well we have learned something here about line breeding and inbreeding, but what about racing and vitality. I have made it a practice to retire to the stock loft of the same strain three or four top cocks. These are usually from different families, where I practice the type of line breeding as I have explained in the previous article. It is well known that continuous breeding to this perfect line of descent can cause a reduction in vitality, and yet it is a risk of incurring vast amounts of genetic drift if one does not adhere to these principals. I therefore devised a method of taking a cock with all the characteristics we require from the one line and pairing it to a hen of one of the other lines, this ensured a family outcross without going outside the strain. This method of breeding for racing puts back any vigour that may have been reduced, and also insures that you have not deviated from the strain. I must insist that one must never contemplate using a cock that has excelled from this family outcross to put to stock unless you are prepared to start a new line of this strain. It is however a great source for finding new hens to introduce as stock for this can also revitalise the stock loft as well as the racing loft. I believe that if I had attempted to draw a plan where we start with Cock A and Hen B, and ended up with progeny c&d that we paired together with the pretext that this would breed us progeny e,f,g and so on, that this would gather all the good genes and eliminate the bad genes. Not only would you lose interest in my algebraic equations, but the reader would soon realise that it was a lot of mumbo jumbo and if put into practice, would have little if any better results than you had before you attempted such an erratic and risky venture. I regard the gene pool in a similar vein to that of a spot we make for fresh water fishing for carp and such fish. We must create a pool and feed it with food to attract the catch we want. If we are going to stick our line in haphazardly we will catch a lot of variables that we do not want. As it is with a fishing spot, so it is with the gene pool, we must stock the gene pool with the right genes and hope by doing so in a calculated manner we will hook the big one and produce a champion. In closing I may ask, how many fanciers have produced a true champion that on the coefficient system can be said to have beaten all comers throughout the country in which it resides over one particular season. I have had such a pigeon and I am very proud of the fact, there have been others also, but not that have beaten every bird that competed in all clubs throughout the land in one particular year. It has been my good fortune to breed a strain of pedigreed birds with their own genetic listing, a first in the world for over one hundred years I believe. They have won from 150 kilometres to a thousand kilometres and cannot be copied unless their bloodlines originate from my lofts. We have achieved many things for ourselves and others, and I am convinced that all things we have achieved can be achieved by others if the advice is followed that I have given here. Eye sign will reveal to you any genetic drift from the originals you are trying to produce. Perfect line of descent when applied using the selection methods we have described on this thread, will bring you success like one could never imagine. Of course other methods than those I have laid out here will bring some measure of success, but none with the regularity or with the high percentages we are sure these methods will give you. To the people who have enjoyed the articles on this thread, and those who are prepared to acknowledge it, I wish you every success in the future. To those who did not, it makes no difference, it is just one mans learning off some of the best pigeon fanciers there ever was in my day. I pass this knowledge on for the price I paid for it! NOTHING. I will still be here to answer genuine questions for those who wish to learn more. As one book taught me, the meek shall inherit the earth. Thanks to all who have read my transcriptions with patience and understanding. jackbarkel@mweb.co.za http://mysite.mweb.co.za/residents/jackbarkel/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Posted March 17, 2008 Report Share Posted March 17, 2008 Many thanks for above Jack,and if I might give one bit of advice,especially to newbies,study it,practice it,master it,and consequently help make yourself a more formidable fancier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timbarra Posted March 17, 2008 Report Share Posted March 17, 2008 Dear people I expected this response from you, I am not nit picking as you state, I have not been rude or aggresive just asking questions !! Also Jack you always leave a get out clause in your explanations and if you are questioned about things, you use this get out clause whenever approriate. Why do you not answer questions.... I state your affraid of being wrong as you believe your way is the only way. Everytime I ask a question , you return a post which contains abusive and personal insults, which I think speaks a thousand words , which people should then read between the lines and decide for themselves. My thread shall remain as it is as I do not intend to give you or anyone who has insulted me an insight into what I have learned from certain people. I think the way you conduct yourself Jack is entirely down to you and as long as your happy with this, then carry on. regards spencer PS. please no more get out clauses to cover yourself, its what eyesign men have done for decades and the sport is tired of it. stand by your convictions and answer simple questions from ordinary people who are interested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bewted Posted March 17, 2008 Report Share Posted March 17, 2008 My Breeding Methods Final. Many will now be saying; well we have learned something here about line breeding and inbreeding, but what about racing and vitality. I have made it a practice to retire to the stock loft of the same strain three or four top cocks. These are usually from different families, where I practice the type of line breeding as I have explained in the previous article. It is well known that continuous breeding to this perfect line of descent can cause a reduction in vitality, and yet it is a risk of incurring vast amounts of genetic drift if one does not adhere to these principals. I therefore devised a method of taking a cock with all the characteristics we require from the one line and pairing it to a hen of one of the other lines, this ensured a family outcross without going outside the strain. This method of breeding for racing puts back any vigour that may have been reduced, and also insures that you have not deviated from the strain. I must insist that one must never contemplate using a cock that has excelled from this family outcross to put to stock unless you are prepared to start a new line of this strain. It is however a great source for finding new hens to introduce as stock for this can also revitalise the stock loft as well as the racing loft. I believe that if I had attempted to draw a plan where we start with Cock A and Hen B, and ended up with progeny c&d that we paired together with the pretext that this would breed us progeny e,f,g and so on, that this would gather all the good genes and eliminate the bad genes. Not only would you lose interest in my algebraic equations, but the reader would soon realise that it was a lot of mumbo jumbo and if put into practice, would have little if any better results than you had before you attempted such an erratic and risky venture. I regard the gene pool in a similar vein to that of a spot we make for fresh water fishing for carp and such fish. We must create a pool and feed it with food to attract the catch we want. If we are going to stick our line in haphazardly we will catch a lot of variables that we do not want. As it is with a fishing spot, so it is with the gene pool, we must stock the gene pool with the right genes and hope by doing so in a calculated manner we will hook the big one and produce a champion. In closing I may ask, how many fanciers have produced a true champion that on the coefficient system can be said to have beaten all comers throughout the country in which it resides over one particular season. I have had such a pigeon and I am very proud of the fact, there have been others also, but not that have beaten every bird that competed in all clubs throughout the land in one particular year. It has been my good fortune to breed a strain of pedigreed birds with their own genetic listing, a first in the world for over one hundred years I believe. They have won from 150 kilometres to a thousand kilometres and cannot be copied unless their bloodlines originate from my lofts. We have achieved many things for ourselves and others, and I am convinced that all things we have achieved can be achieved by others if the advice is followed that I have given here. Eye sign will reveal to you any genetic drift from the originals you are trying to produce. Perfect line of descent when applied using the selection methods we have described on this thread, will bring you success like one could never imagine. Of course other methods than those I have laid out here will bring some measure of success, but none with the regularity or with the high percentages we are sure these methods will give you. To the people who have enjoyed the articles on this thread, and those who are prepared to acknowledge it, I wish you every success in the future. To those who did not, it makes no difference, it is just one mans learning off some of the best pigeon fanciers there ever was in my day. I pass this knowledge on for the price I paid for it! NOTHING. I will still be here to answer genuine questions for those who wish to learn more. As one book taught me, the meek shall inherit the earth. Thanks to all who have read my transcriptions with patience and understanding. jackbarkel@mweb.co.za http://mysite.mweb.co.za/residents/jackbarkel/ hello jack thank you for all that and please dont stop writing on here,i am much the wiser for learning your knowledge on here and i hope to continue reading all your articles and what ever writings in the future,you have taught me many things and i hope i can put them into practise and do you justice in the future !!! best regards ted Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bewted Posted March 17, 2008 Report Share Posted March 17, 2008 Many thanks for above Jack,and if I might give one bit of advice,especially to newbies,study it,practice it,master it,and consequently help make yourself a more formidable fancier. best advice to any newbie on here merlin,dont think they can go far wrong with jacks knowledge of pigeons !!! regards ted !!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bewted Posted March 17, 2008 Report Share Posted March 17, 2008 hello jack i did have some questions to ask you,but,the last few things on here have made me forget them,hopefully i will remember soon enough again,just carry on the good work you are doing,i am sure plenty on here are getting into your insight on pigeons as i know i am !!! best regards ted !!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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